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T20 Updated to D&D 3.5?

Has anyone started working on updating T20 to match the new D&D 3.5 rules yet?

I know that they are not yet Open Gaming Content so I suspect that this can't yet be done officially but is anyone working on doing it themselves?
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Has anyone started working on updating T20 to match the new D&D 3.5 rules yet?

I know that they are not yet Open Gaming Content so I suspect that this can't yet be done officially but is anyone working on doing it themselves?
There may be folks doing it as a fan-based project, but there won't be anything done officially.

Hunter
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Has anyone started working on updating T20 to match the new D&D 3.5 rules yet?

I know that they are not yet Open Gaming Content so I suspect that this can't yet be done officially but is anyone working on doing it themselves?
enworld.org has a unoffical revision document that lists the changes made in 3.5 . There's a link to it on the upper righthand corner of the main page. Direct Link

Revised 3.5 d20 SRD

D&D 3.5 update booklet(s)

Hope this helps. From what I hear it either doesn't really change anything or if it does 1) it's not required to use 2) just refer to one of the above files.

I've not bought 3.5 anything and don't plan to until any of my current 3.0 books fall apart. ;)

Casey
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Has anyone started working on updating T20 to match the new D&D 3.5 rules yet?

I know that they are not yet Open Gaming Content so I suspect that this can't yet be done officially but is anyone working on doing it themselves?
The 3.0 Game books from WotC were never Open Game Content, however the "System Reference Document 3.0", which contained all the mechanics of the game, was OGC. The 3.5 SRD is Open Game Content, as well, so the 3.5 "rules" are under the OGL. This separation of books and mechanics is done so that WotC doesn't have to give away artwork, design and formatting, discussions and examples.

So, it can be done officially. If it will be done or not, that is another story.

Hunter posted, above, I see, that nothing will be done.
 
OK then, no update to 3.5.
Does anyone know when the T20 reprint is going to be available? It's still listed as out of print/on order (depending where you look).
Will the second printing definitely include errata?
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
OK then, no update to 3.5.
Does anyone know when the T20 reprint is going to be available? It's still listed as out of print/on order (depending where you look).
Will the second printing definitely include errata?
It's at the printer and due to ship from there to distributors on Aug 15. It has been updated with the errata.

Hunter
 
I personally don't see that 3.5 is that much different from 3.0 or that any changes really affect the mechanics of the game.
 
The critical changes are to character class level details (feats and such) which will affect character progression and monsters that have abilities as per a certain level class. This information is not provided in the update documents on the WotC site which pretty much forces some people to buy these books if they want to play with the updated rules...and oh by the way, apparently all future D&D supplements will be produced to the 3.5 standard and 3.0 will be phased out.
 
Originally posted by Spyder:
The critical changes are to character class level details (feats and such) which will affect character progression and monsters that have abilities as per a certain level class. This information is not provided in the update documents on the WotC site which pretty much forces some people to buy these books if they want to play with the updated rules...and oh by the way, apparently all future D&D supplements will be produced to the 3.5 standard and 3.0 will be phased out.
While WotC may stop using the 3.0 SRDs, it cannot force anyone else to do so. The 3.0 SRDs are OGC and OGL, and that's forever.

However, I have seen some speculative discussions that WotC has the theoretical ability to use the d20 License agreement (the one that allows people to use the d20 logo without WotC giving up the rights to it), to force the 3.0 to 3.5 SRD change in *publishing* by mandating 3.5 SRD use in connection with the d20 license. Everyone who responded to this speculation noted that it would cause screaming up and down the wall, and that WotC has also shown no intention to do so. The new 3.5 SRD is up on their website, and I don't believe the d20 License has changed (anyone know otherwise?).

As nearly as I can tell, WotC has no intention to force a shift to 3.5. IMO, consumer desires will drive the shift. If 3.5 materials sell hotter than 3.0 materials, the publishers will follow. If 3.5 materials don't sell, publishers may stick with their 3.0 materials.
 
As a D&D player as well as a Traveller player, I don't see that the 3.5 changes make a difference to T20; practically all of them deal with classes, feats, spells, etc. that are intended for a fantasy game, not a hard SF game. Except for the combat rules mechanics changes (which were mostly in the nature of clarifying the existing system rather than changing the system anyway), I think a "3.5" T20 campaign would be basically identical, rules-wise, to a 3.0 T20 campaign.
 
The only true changes I can see involve a number of feats that are carried over from 3E, namely Skill Focus, Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. Most of that is simple enough to House Rule.

Enjoy,
Flynn
 
The thing is part of making d20Traveller accessable to the d20 crowd is keeping it close to the core d20 rules. Towards that end it seems to me that a new person just getting into T20, and just buying the new 3.5 D&D rules, or just downloading the new OGL material, ought not to be confused when they see 3.0 stuff in T20 that is not in their new books. Since T20 is a complete rulebook that doesn't much require the OGL info, except in leveling up this isn't a long list.

However their are some rules that T20 took from the 3.0 OGL that no longer exist in 3.5. If the new rules are better perhaps they should be used. Just to take one (fairly minor) example in 3.0 your Swim check was -1 for every 5 pounds of gear in the core rules, and -1 for each 2kg of gear in T20. In the new 3.5 info your penalty to swim is now simply twice your armor check penalty. The new system may be less realistic but it is more convenient in play as you don't have to stop play to add up the mass of the characters gear when he falls in a river. This makes for a faster and more fun playing environment. Perhaps that change ought to be copied in T20. Another change is that Intuit Direction is no longer a seperate skill in 32.5, it is now part of Survival (as almost no one was taking it and it was too specialized a skill), maybe it should be taken out of a future T20 too.

I guess what I'm suggesting would be for someone to start making a document that covers these sorts of changes and includes their suggested changes to T20 to match them. At some future point Hunter can, if he so chooses, incorporate some of them in a future edition of T20. [Obviously he has his own plans which aren't for me to dictate, I'm just suggesting that some of the 3.5 material may make for a better game; and even the stuff which isn't right for Traveller ought to be more explicitly rejected,. YMMV.]
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:
I guess what I'm suggesting would be for someone to start making a document that covers these sorts of changes and includes their suggested changes to T20 to match them.
Well there's the unofficial D&D changes document I linked to above that would make a good start.

3.5 SRD in PDF in multiple files or just one.

Casey
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:


<snip>

Just to take one (fairly minor) example in 3.0 your Swim check was -1 for every 5 pounds of gear in the core rules, and -1 for each 2kg of gear in T20. In the new 3.5 info your penalty to swim is now simply twice your armor check penalty. The new system may be less realistic but it is more convenient in play as you don't have to stop play to add up the mass of the characters gear when he falls in a river. This makes for a faster and more fun playing environment. Perhaps that change ought to be copied in T20.
Well why bother with encumbrance too, nobody uses it so in the interest of convenience and not bogging down play with details everybody can carry all they want all the time. You know what I find really a chore to do and that takes forever, keeping track of hit points, lets not bother or just make it a simple one successful hit is instant death.

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Sorry for the off topic rant but its this kind of 'logic' that really burns me. I prefer a certain degree of quasi-realism. Yes it is a game, but there are times when you'll find players looking for such advantages to exploit. DM "Lysander loses his grip on the rope and falls into the river." Player "Lysander isn't wearing any armor so he swims to the bank and climbs out." DM "But isn't he carrying the treasure of Muerte Merdi, it weighs 40kg. He would sink like a stone." Player "Nope, not in the new rules." And yes it is the DM's call to allow or use the rules they want but many novice DM's and Player's take the printed rules (and personal interpretation where unclear) as gospel, even when there are errors. OK, rant off

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
Another change is that Intuit Direction is no longer a seperate skill in 32.5, it is now part of Survival (as almost no one was taking it and it was too specialized a skill), maybe it should be taken out of a future T20 too.
<sigh... see above rant... > I always felt personally it should have been a Feat not a skill but again that's another topic.

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
I guess what I'm suggesting would be for someone to start making a document that covers these sorts of changes and includes their suggested changes to T20 to match them. At some future point Hunter can, if he so chooses, incorporate some of them in a future edition of T20. [Obviously he has his own plans which aren't for me to dictate, I'm just suggesting that some of the 3.5 material may make for a better game; and even the stuff which isn't right for Traveller ought to be more explicitly rejected,. YMMV.]
Good idea there, run with it


By which I mean of course "Thank you for voluntering."
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Seriously, jump right in, Casey will help
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Just start a new topic, maybe over In My Traveller Universe and see how it goes.
 
Per the T20 Carrying Capacity table (p117) any medium sized biped with less than STR 18 who is carrying 40kg is going to be carrying a Medium Load. This provides an Armor Check penalty of -3. Doubling this we get a -6. Under the current system they'd have a -20 to their Swim roll and if T20 was changed to match 3.5 it would go down to -6. An average person (STR 12 or less) would be heavily loaded if they were carrying 40 kg, giving an AC penalty of -6 which doubles to -12. Anyone with a STR of 8 or less couldn't have carried the 40kg in the first place. Thus the new 3.5 system better models the notion that stronger people can carry heavy loads and still swim than weaker people can and I'm fine with this. YMMV.

If you really wanted to model it properly you'd have to know the volume of the gear, not its mass. Thus someone carrying 40kg of lead would sink but someone carrying 40kg of wood (most types) could use it as a flotation device and get a bonus to their Swim roll. I'm not sure that I want to bother.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Seriously, jump right in, Casey will help
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Sure. [points to various documents linked to in previous posts in this thread] There you go. Enjoy. ;)

Casey
 
another change I can identify fairly quickly involves the Jump skill. As this is one of those things that stays self-contained, it really doesn't have much effect on T20 as a rules set. You just use one version or the other. For the foreseeable future, very few people who pick up T20 and D&D3.5 will NOT know of the existence of 3.0, so the handful of real rules changes that affect T20 will have a known source, and people can figure out if they want to use the T20 (3.0) version or the 3.5 version...
 
Originally posted by Peter Newman:

If you really wanted to model it properly you'd have to know the volume of the gear, not its mass. Thus someone carrying 40kg of lead would sink but someone carrying 40kg of wood (most types) could use it as a flotation device and get a bonus to their Swim roll. I'm not sure that I want to bother.
And if you really wanted persnickety realism, you'd have to check where the character was carrying it and work out the buoyancy and centre of mass of character+load because the wood might float too high and force the character's head down into the water....
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