• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

T20 - revision required! FAO Hunter and MJD

Anton

SOC-11
First: this is intended as constructive criticism - not as an attack. I really like Traveller and what you've done with it and think T20 is the best way forward for the game.

That out of the way...

If you're reprinting the T20 Handbook, as I believe you are about to do - please revise it first. Nothing too major. Obviously you'll be incorporating the errata. One system jumps out at me and my players, though, as needing revision, and that's character creation.

It should not take an hour or more to create a new player character under the D20 system, even taking into account the fact that prior history must be created.

To explain where I'm coming from - I recently started a T20 campaign with six players. Two players and I are new to D20, the rest are all familiar with various incarnations. All of them took an average of an hour to create their character, though. Yes, there's the prior history, different feats and loads of new skills, but even so... People should not view character generation as a long, boring chore. Yet that is what's happened with my group - the only positive comments so far being "Well, at least you can't die in character creation" and "OK, it was shorter than Rolemaster..." (and where is that game now?)

The problems, as we see them, are actually relatively few:

Layout: It's necessary to flick backwards and forwards through the rulebook multiple times, marking pages to return to - XP table, one or more Class descriptions, the Class prior history page, and so on. Some stuff is not where you'd expect to find it (aging effects come to find).

The layout needs to be redesigned to eliminate that need as much as possible. Possible solution - shrink to fit? Definitely put the 'prior history' page for each Class in beside the basic material for the Class. Put all the age-related material together - starting age through to aging effects. And similar... I'm sure you can get where I'm coming from with this.

Explanations: As seen in reviews on other boards and on multiple threads here, many people cannot get their heads around how to handle University. Fine if people bother to come here and find the relevant threads, but examples are needed in the book.

Emphasis: It's a big book. Very relevant details have ended up being buried. It was only after the fourth character was created that we noticed the part about being able to take a higher survival DC in return for lower XP, cash and promotion DCs, for example. Similarly, (although I accept Hunter's point made on rpg.net) while Lifeblood/Stamina are combat stats, players will get upset when they find their PC only has say, 8 lifeblood - "If I'd known about that when I was creating the PC I'd have put the low stat into...". I explain the rule before the player rolls stats - others mightn't.

Examples: As stated in another thread here, the two character generation examples so far are *very* basic - straight through one career, no multi-classing, no University. Because of prior history, T20 probably has one of the most complicated PC generation systems around. That needs to be covered in the examples given... so rewrite the one in the book. Have a PC start off in Uni and Merchant OTC, (maybe taking a level in rogue as well with his Uni XP), graduate into the Merchants, stay there for a couple of terms, then multi-class into Merc, then go back to Uni before mustering out and beginning play...

Heh - one rule quibble... because so many skill points are received, is there ever a T20 PC created who doesn't have at least one skill rank in Gambling? It's worth it, for the +1 on the mustering out Cash tables, when only the rarest PC will have less than 50 skill points before beginning play...

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Character generation is needlessly complex - something that we think could be greatly improved by revising or adding some examples and changing the layout.

I know my few simple suggestions (especially the layout one) could involve a lot of work, but I think it would be justified. There have been so many gripes about character generation here and on other boards that I think it will have to be done sometime, so why not sooner rather than later?

Again, please take this in the spirit its intended - constructive criticism, not an attack.

Regards,

Anton
 
Though I agree with the point on character creation, I would like to point out that vehicle/ world creation is very concise.

I like the weatlh of information in the core book, and I am finding it easy to convert previous editions to T20. As my Traveller collection is quite ecclectic, this is a plus.

I would just like to know if "T20's end" is fact or hype. I'm getting tired of buying games that keep getting revised or cancelled.
toast.gif
 
First off, I really wouldn't jump to ANY conclusions from the "End of T20" thread -- until Hunter or Avery says otherwise that is a totally unsubstantiated rumor and nothing more.

Yeah char-gen in T20 is a disorganized mess of page-flipping and confusion and the examples provided are entirely insufficient. Hunter, Bruce, and Martin know this is a problem and they want to fix it, but rewriting and reformatting entire chapters is a big, expensive and time-consuming task. The first print-run of T20 is already sold out and more books are needed NOW so they made the (IMO) wise decision to print another run now, including the problems, rather than spending 3-4 more months fixing the problems but watching the market dry up for lack of product. Eventually (probably in a year or so) a revised edition of THB will be published. In the meantime, the T20 Players Book (coming next after Gateway Domain) is intended to solve all of the current book's char-gen problems (as well as including the missing 'double-secret' sections from the D&D3 PHB, thus making T20 into a true stand-alone SFRPG). Yeah they're expecting you to buy a second book to get what should rightly have been in the first one, but it's better than nothing.

As for the craft design and world creation sections, I agree that they're much better organized than char-gen, but personally would've rather seen all the necessary charts and tables gathered together in one place (like in CT and especially MT) rather than spread throughout the chapter, interspersed with explanatory text and examples. The way T20 is organized is easier to follow the first time through, but makes for much more page-flipping once you know the system and only need the tables for reference. Note: the forthcoming T20 Ref Screen (which I believe is supposed to also include a Big Book o' Tables) may fix this (though again that would be a case of buying a second product to get what you actually wanted in the first one...).
 
I disagree with the notion that Character Generation is hard, based solely on the "page flipping" a trivial reason, what, considering that's what books are all about... the format is a little awkward at first, but my THB is starting to get that "old shoe" feeling about it already... besides, I have seen far worse Character Generation Sequences in my Travels... At least T20 is trying to make an effort to not rely on too many "Archetype" characters (like in shadowrun (barf)) which, in my view promotes laziness and lack of imagination...

It is far from being a perfect work, though, and I do have a few beefs with it, especially aesthetically... but I will stick to rules reviews...

I get headaches from the Computer Design Sequences, I must admit... And it is unfortunate as my Academic Character, Dr. Gwerf, really needs a good computer that doesn't cost MCR Gazillion.
It seems uneccesarily complex to me... sort of Megatravellerish in that respect... Ditto for the Vehicle Design Sequences, but I need to really try to get my head around it more...

My other main gripe with the THB is the Errata! Not to be too harsh, but the book costs about 50 scoots (high for a d20 book) and for that it should not have as many glaring errors in crucial areas it does. I'm not talking about little typos here and there, mind you, I mean stuff like the "skill points per level" in certain classes are off, sort of a big thing. I got a bad feeling when the character sheet had errors in it...

Still, it's my favortie "new game" Emperor Bless you, lads...


PS: What, By all the Rocks of Glisten, are those guns on the cover (in use by the Vargr, and "The Angry Space Plumber") all about?
 
As a new (as in only begining to play) GM with T20, I'd have to say that the only *BIG* problem I've had with character creation besides the lack of a complete example was the page flipping. I've fixed this for myself by re-typing the charts in OpenOffice and setting up a "Chargen Booklet" my players can easily flip through while making up character, or just get the basic Class info + Prior History stuff on two pages and let the others check out the rest of the infos.

It helped a LOT when making 6 PCs at the same time. Chargen layout is *VERY IMPORTANT* when doing more than one character at a time, because it's not every player that had experience in making dozens of characters or has it's own book to peruse/lookup tables.

As for the Prior-History example, it'd be great for new player/GM. Off course, once you've made up a few chars, you know you'll have to roll up the stats, select a class, make it a 1st level character, then go to prior history and decide about university, employment or enlistment, roll on the required table, pass GO, collect 2000XP or go directly to jail. ;)

The 50+ Skill point beginning character isn't hard to get, but it surely won't be a Barbarian or Marines ;) Keeping in mind that a character with Rank 6 in a skill is classified as having that skill at "professional level" (i.e.: can earn a living with that skill), 50+ skill points isn't that far fetched. Earning a living rarely only involves only a single skill you're proficient with.

Oh, and by the way, having that 300kCr. isn't that much when it's what your ship costs each months ;) . Even if all pcs have that much, they'll have to work to stay afloat. Even in military campains, having a lot of cash isn't important. Who cares you can buy 10 more ACR if you'll loose them all while running away, or if you can find 10 brand new (or only slightly used) when winning a battle?

All that being said, If a revision of the Character Generation is to be part of the Player's Guide, I'm OK with all that.

Now, if we just could get a few Computer/Vehicules/Ships step-by-step desings examples and conversions guidelines from others system (CT/MT/TNE/T4 and even GT if legally possible), I'd be *REALLY* happy.
 
Hello good Baron...

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
I disagree with the notion that Character Generation is hard, based solely on the "page flipping" a trivial reason, what, considering that's what books are all about... the format is a little awkward at first, but my THB is starting to get that "old shoe" feeling about it already... besides,
I agree with you. It's only a problem while making up new characters, but we have to admit that the page flipping takes a lot of the character generation times.

I've put up together some tables to speed things here, just the Skills and Feat summary I did sped up things 300% (no need to read through ALL the description to get the meaning of the skill and its interdependencies (bonus to or from other skills/feats) or know what the actual feat does.



I have seen far worse Character Generation Sequences in my Travels... At least T20 is trying to make an effort to not rely on too many "Archetype" characters (like in shadowrun (barf)) which, in my view promotes laziness and lack of imagination...
Yeah, beats out many RPGs that I've tried


As for the class flexibility, I just LOVE it. My players too! Since they can multiclass nearly at will and no class is sharply single-minded or too limited in skills/feats.

We're basically a MAGE:The Ascension gaming group. Played that for over 5 years. We're used to flexibility. T20's character creation gives us that and we like that :D



I get headaches from the Computer Design Sequences, I must admit... And it is unfortunate as my Academic Character, Dr. Gwerf, really needs a good computer that doesn't cost MCR Gazillion.
It seems uneccesarily complex to me... sort of Megatravellerish in that respect... Ditto for the Vehicle Design Sequences, but I need to really try to get my head around it more...
We need some serious examples for those. You're not alone in loosing hair with the Computer Desing Sequence... There's a thread where we implore The Powers That Be to clarify some things but still have to hear from them (MJD told us he'd try to find someone able to explain those things to us, IIRC)



My other main gripe with the THB is the Errata! Not to be too harsh, but the book costs about 50 scoots (high for a d20 book) and for that it should not have as many glaring errors in crucial areas it does. I'm not talking about little typos here and there, mind you, I mean stuff like the "skill points per level" in certain classes are off, sort of a big thing. I got a bad feeling when the character sheet had errors in it...
Considering that about 75% of the Erratas is for typo or small layout problem (some lines missing BOLD attributes, missing a space etc) it's MUCH better than "See Page XX" from Whitewolf's books or entirely missing chapters (I remember searching for hours the non-weapon proficiency in the Spelljammer basic set years ago... only to find an errata in a later Dragon Mag. "Sorry, we forgot to get those references out, since there is NO such chapters")

I'm Bugging the Mad Irishman to update those Character Sheets a bit ;)

Been a while since I've heard anything tho, will try to bug him some more, but not too much ;)


PS: What, By all the Rocks of Glisten, are those guns on the cover (in use by the Vargr, and "The Angry Space Plumber") all about?
Dunno why, but I just have the feeling that having them with gunpowder weapons wouldn't have the same "Sci-Fi" look :D
 
Originally posted by T. Foster:
First off, I really wouldn't jump to ANY conclusions from the "End of T20" thread -- until Hunter or Avery says otherwise that is a totally unsubstantiated rumor and nothing more.

Yeah char-gen in T20 is a disorganized mess of page-flipping and confusion and the examples provided are entirely insufficient. Hunter, Bruce, and Martin know this is a problem and they want to fix it, but rewriting and reformatting entire chapters is a big, expensive and time-consuming task. The first print-run of T20 is already sold out and more books are needed NOW so they made the (IMO) wise decision to print another run now, including the problems, rather than spending 3-4 more months fixing the problems but watching the market dry up for lack of product. Eventually (probably in a year or so) a revised edition of THB will be published. In the meantime, the T20 Players Book (coming next after Gateway Domain) is intended to solve all of the current book's char-gen problems (as well as including the missing 'double-secret' sections from the D&D3 PHB, thus making T20 into a true stand-alone SFRPG). Yeah they're expecting you to buy a second book to get what should rightly have been in the first one, but it's better than nothing.
Yes, there would be a fair bit of work involved in re-writing/new layout, but in my opinion it would be worth it. From a business point of view, I can certainly understand the need to have a rulebook available, even if it isn't perfect, rather than potentially losing players to other games while a redesigned THB was being prepared.

However, if the 'Players' book will solve these problems, then fair enough... it does have the downside though, that a large section of the THB will then be redundant?

Having said that, though - there are still things that could be done in the meantime with the 2nd printing. The obvious one would be to reduce the size of the print in the character generation example (it is rather large and white-spacey' at the moment) and replace it with a more complex example as I outlined earlier. If it could be fitted onto the same number of pages, it wouldn't involve much layout/design work and would be well justified.

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
I disagree with the notion that Character Generation is hard, based solely on the "page flipping" a trivial reason,
I'm not saying it's hard. I'm saying it's made unnecessarily long and complex by the layout, poor explanations (e.g., University) and simple examples used. Main point: It should not take an hour to create a character, sans background, in any game system. Creating characters in CT used to be fun! You used to get 'donations' of NPCs that the players had created because it was so quick and fun. That won't happen with T20.

Sandamn wrote:
Yeah, beats out many RPGs that I've tried

As for the class flexibility, I just LOVE it. My players too! Since they can multiclass nearly at will and no class is sharply single-minded or too limited in skills/feats.

We're basically a MAGE:The Ascension gaming group. Played that for over 5 years. We're used to flexibility. T20's character creation gives us that and we like that
I totally agree with you - this is one of the strengths of the D20 (and especially T20, seeing as there's no multi-classing penalty) system.

Regards,

Anton
 
Originally posted by Anton:
However, if the 'Players' book will solve these problems, then fair enough... it does have the downside though, that a large section of the THB will then be redundant?
That can't really be helped, but I sincerely HOPE it won't be too redundant. What would you say to Expanded Prior History (not just Five term description or 6 mishap...) Even if it's somewhat redundant, it would be GREAT (Maybe Hunter/MJD/Bruce can answer for that?)

What if the Mustering Out table were more than just 6 choice? There is so much that can be done with the Player's Handbook. We already know that there is a pretty good chance we'll see new character classes and new prestige classes.
 
Personally, they should try to clarify the Personal History rules. Perhaps that is why Hunter is doing an OGL-based T20 Player's Guide. Of course, I hope he would use a multiclass character as an example of using Prior History.

Hopefully, they will add variant rules like using Massive Damage Threshold from the d20 Modern System Reference Document.
 
THB was intended to cover everything in one volume. It went through dozens of incarnations to try to get an optimum layout, and it's just not possible to get it all in the order evertyone would like.

Players book rectifies this to a great extent, and we're planning on doing a new multiclass character generation example.

Our demise is a rumour, nothing more. The print version of TA1 is coming off the presses now.
 
Originally posted by Reginald:
Personally, they should try to clarify the Personal History rules. Perhaps that is why Hunter is doing an OGL-based T20 Player's Guide. Of course, I hope he would use a multiclass character as an example of using Prior History.
That was basically the problem. We really couldn't explain character creation in a book carrying the d20 logo. By my reading of things that really included not being able to give a detailed explaination of how to spend that experience earned from the University and Prior History.

The Player's Book, being OGL and not carrying the d20 logo can have that material. Yes there will be some overlap of material found in the THB and the Player's Book, but there is also a lot of new stuff also.


Hopefully, they will add variant rules like using Massive Damage Threshold from the d20 Modern System Reference Document.
Honestly we are more interested in refining what we have rather than attempt to try to add additional compatibility with d20 Modern

Hunter
 
I'd concur with the comments about page-flipping; the Prior History tables ought to be with the other class details rather than stranded out beyond the feat & skill definitions. Ideally, this should be fitted into a single double page spread by class, though that would be a little difficult space-wise unless you lost the class-specific feat descriptions to another section.

Another suggestion - there should be a feats table arranged in "tree" format, as is the case in the DnD PHB, so it's obvious without page-flipping what feats are interdependent. This should also show any other feat requirements.

Having just done my first char-gen session with players rather than on my own, I can say that it IS rather time-consuming, and any help with speeding the process up would be welcome. Anything that the planned Players' Book can do on this score will be much appreciated.
 
Originally posted by Reginald:

Hopefully, they will add variant rules like using Massive Damage Threshold from the d20 Modern System Reference Document.
If it's in the d20 Modern SRD what's to stop you from printing out the relevant section and using it in your game? Nothing. ;)

And isn't this just a modified form of the same variant rule in the DM's Guide?

Nothing stopping me from folding in SAN rules and other Lovecrafty goodness from Call of Cthulhu d20* either or any other d20 thing I like and having them work with almost no changes. The network wotsitsname of d20 in action. :D

* like its even more deadly Massive Damage Threshold; so at least 3 d20 Core books have this rule as an option so the odds are you already have this option available if you play t20

Casey
 
Originally posted by ninthcouncil:
I'd concur with the comments about page-flipping; the Prior History tables ought to be with the other class details rather than stranded out beyond the feat & skill definitions. Ideally, this should be fitted into a single double page spread by class, though that would be a little difficult space-wise unless you lost the class-specific feat descriptions to another section.

Another suggestion - there should be a feats table arranged in "tree" format, as is the case in the DnD PHB, so it's obvious without page-flipping what feats are interdependent. This should also show any other feat requirements.
Yes a feat tree would be very helpful. And perhaps a listing of class/race-specific feats to clearly identify general from specific.

Now since Prior History Class does not equal Character Class I would not put say Army Class and then the Army Prior History right after each other. My guess is Prior History was put after skills/feats, etc. is because it's the "final" step and you're going to have to flip around no matter where it's put. (prior history, character class, feat, skill; mix and repeat)

Casey
 
Prior history should be optional, alternatively you could just start out a character at 1st level as they do in D&D. Its hard to get into a space campaign which such expensive starships. The referee has to put millions of credits into the PC's hands just to get started. Its hardly realistic for a character with his fortune made to begin life as an adventurer, though the player's controlling the characters would probably want to. Playing a retired PC is hardly exciting. The PCs could kill a few opponents and collect millions of credits as a reward, they could find a derelict ship, yet the referee would have to stop them from selling the starship and retiring with the proceeds. By definition any space merchants campaign involved millionare PCs who are actively involved in making more millions. That's just one Traveller Issue. Another idea I'd like to see in the Referee's Guide is a list of NPCs for every character class levels 1 thru 20. The default race being human, the DM's guide has something like this. Perhaps an optional system of Challenge ratings should be included. I currently go by stamina dice and use that number when refering to the CR table in the DM's guide to decide how many xp to award per encounter. I also use the DM's guide monetary treasure tables but convert the GP, CP, SP, and PP into credits at the rate of Cr50 = 1 pp, = 5 gp, = 50 sp, = 500 cp. I take the gp value of gems and jewelery and multiply by 10 to get the credit value. Magic items don't exist in Traveller, few of them can be converted into Ancient artifacts, most can't however.
 
Originally posted by Casey:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Reginald:

Hopefully, they will add variant rules like using Massive Damage Threshold from the d20 Modern System Reference Document.
If it's in the d20 Modern SRD what's to stop you from printing out the relevant section and using it in your game?</font>[/QUOTE]Procrastination.


If I don't get around to adapting the Massive Damage Threshold rules for T20, then I end up using the default rules.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:

Prior history should be optional, alternatively you could just start out a character at 1st level as they do in D&D.
You could, but then you'd be doing D&D in space. I could always go back to doing Dragonstar.

Something about Traveller makes you want to play an experienced character.
 
Originally posted by Reginald:

If I don't get around to adapting the Massive Damage Threshold rules for T20, then I end up using the default rules.
Off the top of my head:
Take the paragraph from the d20 modern srd and after the three instances of hit point add the following

(1) or lifeblood
(2) replace hit point with lifeblood
(3) and possibly lifeblood, as per the standard t20 rules.
replace both remaining instances of hit points with stamina

;)

EDIT: actually looked at my THB :D
HTH,
Casey
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Prior history should be optional,[...]
Well, it is


Nobody's forcing that part of the rules down the GM's throats, just like nobody's stoping them giving away 15000XP per game (would mean shorter campaing or very high level games tho)


Its hard to get into a space campaign which such expensive starships. The referee has to put millions of credits into the PC's hands just to get started. Its hardly realistic for a character with his fortune made to begin life as an adventurer, though the player's controlling the characters would probably want to.
Or characters can be employed by a rich patron/small corp. By the way, it could be very realistic for a character to begins with loads of money, as long as he's got a *REALLY* good explanation, like having SOC 18+ (ie: being Daddy's Girl helps a lot if Daddy's a Duke)

Playing a retired PC is hardly exciting. The PCs could kill a few opponents and collect millions of credits as a reward, they could find a derelict ship, yet the referee would have to stop them from selling the starship and retiring with the proceeds. By definition any space merchants campaign involved millionare PCs who are actively involved in making more millions. That's just one Traveller Issue.
Well, playing retired characters can be fun if you're not retireing the character from adventure. Also, by definition of every Traveller game systems, it is impossible to survive while doing "Only Legal Trading", meaning the PCs really NEED to go out the beaten path and take risks. Forcing the Characters to find something to have ends meet is one of the basic Traveller Idea. Nobody's interested in playing "Cubicles and Bureaucrats" or "Broker, Distributors and Salesman"

Another idea I'd like to see in the Referee's Guide is a list of NPCs for every character class levels 1 thru 20. The default race being human, the DM's guide has something like this.
Personally, I find that TA4, "76 Gunmens" is filling that role pretty good. Ok, it's not "a sample for every levels" but it has samples for the following stratas (quoting from the TA...)

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Each set of NPCs are also displayed at 4 different experience levels:
3rd level, called “Green”
6th level, called “Regular”
9th level, called “Veteran”
12th level, called “Elite”</pre>[/QUOTE]There is not real difference between Level 6 and Level 7, meaning you can skip some levels in the examples. Granted, we'd need another TA for most "non-combat" NPCs (TA4 is more geared toward Service class, Ship's Crew, Guards, Corsairs, Thugs and the like), but I liked the idea enough not to be disappointed after buying it.

Perhaps an optional system of Challenge ratings should be included. I currently go by stamina dice and use that number when refering to the CR table in the DM's guide to decide how many xp to award per encounter.
I agree that balancing encounters *IS* a real pain for me, since I've only *PLAYED* D20 once and am now reffering T20. Presently, I have no guidelines so I wing it as they go. If an encounter is *REALLY* to heavy for my group, I'll tone it down. If it's the opposits and I want them to have some challenge, they might find that some are Dirty Fighters and have some tricks or pals that were comming in to help them.
 
Back
Top