System level invasion

[Enoki]

Dunigan understates the problem of logistics by a significant margin.

Exactly. VanCreveld's Strategy The Logic of War and Peace is much better for describing the problem.

 

[savage]

Collecting resources is a major point, but also decimating or controlling the enemy command structure, is the victory point. The Brits discovered the Zulu can overwhelm a superior military if they're organized. General Custer had a similar problem.

 

[Timerover51]

Collecting resources is a major point, but also decimating or controlling the enemy command structure, if the victory point. The Brits discovered the Zulu can overwhelm a superior military if they're organized. General Custer had a similar problem.

General Custer also had the problem that the attacking Indians had a large number of Winchester and Henry magazine repeating rifles verses his unit's single-shot Springfield carbines. The .45-70 cartridge, or more accurately, the .45 caliber carbine using 55 grains of black powder, had more stopping power than the .44 Henry or the .44-40 cartridge used in the lever-action repeaters, but all three cartridges are quite adequate when used on human targets. He also split his command up into three mutually unsupported segments, actually 4 if you count the pack train, which did not help matters either.

 

[aramis]

The .45-70 does a number on a moose - one shot kill rate on moose is over 90%. I would expect it to do similar to a horse, only more so, as moose often survive 30MPH impacts with autos.

the .44 Henry was noted for not consistently even dropping horses. (It's fine for killing men.)

 

[Carlobrand]

General Custer also had the problem that the attacking Indians had a large number of Winchester and Henry magazine repeating rifles verses his unit's single-shot Springfield carbines. The .45-70 cartridge, or more accurately, the .45 caliber carbine using 55 grains of black powder, had more stopping power than the .44 Henry or the .44-40 cartridge used in the lever-action repeaters, but all three cartridges are quite adequate when used on human targets. He also split his command up into three mutually unsupported segments, actually 4 if you count the pack train, which did not help matters either.

As I understand it, his tactics would have been fine if he'd been facing the numbers he expected to face. The Army had just a few days earlier fought off a large number of natives at the Battle of Rosebud despite the natives having those same weapons you mention, though the size of the native force prompted that column to pull back and regroup after the battle. Custer was trying a common tactic where the force would split and hit the village from multiple angles in order to get into the village while capturing any women and children who tried to run away from the primary thrust, thereby leaving the natives with a choice between yielding or trying to have a shooting battle while their wives and children were either captive or forced back among them. The size of the force opposing him was unprecedented; he didn't give full weight to the reports of his scouts because no native force even remotely that large had ever assembled before (despite the fact that his colleague had fought against a surprisingly large force just a few days earlier at Rosebud). So the failure lay not in tactics but in his not being able to believe what he was being told.

Although I think at the point where his scouts were changing out of uniform and into native garb and about to leave him, that should have been a clue.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Poor Custer.

As I understand it, his tactics would have been fine if he'd been facing the numbers he expected to face. The Army had just a few days earlier fought off a large number of natives at the Battle of Rosebud despite the natives having those same weapons you mention, though the size of the native force prompted that column to pull back and regroup after the battle. Custer was trying a common tactic where the force would split and hit the village from multiple angles in order to get into the village while capturing any women and children who tried to run away from the primary thrust, thereby leaving the natives with a choice between yielding or trying to have a shooting battle while their wives and children were either captive or forced back among them. The size of the force opposing him was unprecedented; he didn't give full weight to the reports of his scouts because no native force even remotely that large had ever assembled before (despite the fact that his colleague had fought against a surprisingly large force just a few days earlier at Rosebud). So the failure lay not in tactics but in his not being able to believe what he was being told.

Although I think at the point where his scouts were changing out of uniform and into native garb and about to leave him, that should have been a clue.

Not that I am some sort of expert on this battle, but from my research, if Reno & Benteen (fuzzy on the second dude's name, it has been a while) had showed up with reinforcements and the packs like Custer had asked/ordered them to as opposed to knocking off for the day and talking smack about Custer being a glory hound whist he was being slaughtered he might very well have still won.

Funny thing is I used to totally blame George for his loss based on his conduct in the Civil War, but having found out that his subordinates didn't come to his aid when they could have, now I feel bad for him. I mean seriously how can you blow off a runner bearing the instructions "Come quick, bring packs! Gen. Custer" and then sit a couple hills over talking smack? They should have seen a Court Martial for that in my overinflated opinion, but that just might be me.

 

[aramis]

Not that I am some sort of expert on this battle, but from my research, if Reno & Benteen (fuzzy on the second dude's name, it has been a while) had showed up with reinforcements and the packs like Custer had asked/ordered them to as opposed to knocking off for the day and talking smack about Custer being a glory hound whist he was being slaughtered he might very well have still won.

Funny thing is I used to totally blame George for his loss based on his conduct in the Civil War, but having found out that his subordinates didn't come to his aid when they could have, now I feel bad for him. I mean seriously how can you blow of a runner bearing the instructions "Come quick, bring packs! Gen. Custer" and then sit a couple hills over talking smack? They should have seen a Court Martial for that in my overinflated opinion, but that just might be me.

Oh, there should have been several courts-martial for incidents there. Dereliction of duty, gross insubordination, mutiny...

 

[Timerover51]

Not that I am some sort of expert on this battle, but from my research, if Reno & Benteen (fuzzy on the second dude's name, it has been a while) had showed up with reinforcements and the packs like Custer had asked/ordered them to as opposed to knocking off for the day and talking smack about Custer being a glory hound whist he was being slaughtered he might very well have still won.

Funny thing is I used to totally blame George for his loss based on his conduct in the Civil War, but having found out that his subordinates didn't come to his aid when they could have, now I feel bad for him. I mean seriously how can you blow of a runner bearing the instructions "Come quick, bring packs! Gen. Custer" and then sit a couple hills over talking smack? They should have seen a Court Martial for that in my overinflated opinion, but that just might be me.

Reno's unit had already been pretty well shot up and was under attack as well while Custer was getting chopped up, and Benteen showed up after he had first found the wandering troop with the ammunition packs. I have no idea what Custer was thinking when he sent that messenger off with orders to have the troop guarding the packs come up. The messenger had no idea whatsoever where that troop was. The group that he found was Reno's force, already shot up and pinned down.