System level invasion

[Matt123]

It strikes me this issue was resolved by Alexander the Great in his conquests of City States. He wandered around with a great army, leaving a trail of vassal cities in his wake.

Simply arrive, gain control of System space and set an acceptable level of tithes for this system to be considered a valued part of your Empire.

If a system chooses not pay, now or later, then. Simply arrive, gain control of System space, restate your requirements then decapitate the leadership if they continue to refuse. Let the citizens choose new leadership, rinse and repeat.

Invasions are messy affairs that serve only to harm the very military resource you need to keep your loyal systems in line. Don't waste resources on invasions, let locals rule locals, so long as they pay your tithes. Only ever target the direct causes of tithes not being paid, the leadership and the tangible follies they produces (palaces, etc). Don't negotiate with leadership, exterminate. Its far cheaper. If they survive and start paying tithes again, great, it is a win-win.

Just my 2 cents. In an Interstellar Empire a single system is useful for one of only two things. Paying tithes or being an example of not paying tithes. Making it complicated just confuses your loyal subjects.

 

[Carlobrand]

...If a system chooses not pay, now or later, then. Simply arrive, gain control of System space, restate your requirements then decapitate the leadership if they continue to refuse. Let the citizens choose new leadership, rinse and repeat. ...

I'm of the opinion that a mushroom cloud over the center of government would be equally effective.:devil:

 

[Matt123]

I'm of the opinion that a mushroom cloud over the center of government would be equally effective.:devil:

In one regard yes, but the goal isn't to demonstrate the ability to throw military weight around, its to gain compliance to your tithe demands. Nuking the capital will just generate irreconcilable differences, which translates into the locals adopting a hard line. When populations are frightened or angry, they generate right wing leaders who look to create unity by focusing popular attention on the outside bad guy.

Its much easier to get willing payments from populations that believe you are, if not fair, at least predictable in that you always target leaders not populations - up to a point, then go over the top. Make examples of one or two systems. Invite the media, demonstrate how reasonable you have been, then drop several large asteroids on the main planet. Announce that land and nobility rights will be up for sale in due course. Then send your fleet on another good-will tour of your Empire.

I missed my calling

 

[Rigel Stardin]

my thoughts on the subject

Wars in instellar space are fought for the same reasons as they were before interstellar powers began spanning the stars. Most communities believe such wars are a waste of resources and manpower yet maintain vast naval fleets and marine forces in order to preserve their way of government. It is this brinkmanship, which assures peace through out known space through recorded history. However, wars for territory, political views and nationalism have been fought as well. The ideas of compromise and neutrality are hard lesson to learn and are sometimes forgotten.

Most interstellar wars take place during the expansion period experienced by interstellar communities. Often the aggressor is a rival communities or a planet seeking to remain free of the political influence of the community. Stable communities approach these aggressor states using political and economic factors at their disposal; if the aggressor fear overtakes their reason then there is war. If he does not, then alliances is formed and the stronger of the two system of government absorbed the rival into the community with the least amount of damage done to both sides.

Militant Communities seeking expansion by force often find Alliances forming around them in order to stop their expansion if a strong leadership is present in the surrounding area. These same comminutes will force unlined worlds to join larger interstellar communities in order to defend themselves from these hostile states. If the militant community continues it harassment of the new member of the larger state, the larger state will react in order to preserve its standing among the other worlds within the community. In these cases aggressor states feel the full wraith of their vast resources and manpower ultimately being absorbed into the larger one as a punitive measure.

Communities of the same size and military strength prefer treaty and compromise unless one of them become an aggressor state. This circumstance crop up only if drastic shifts in political, social and economical upheaval has taken place in one of the communities. War is no longer seen as a threat to the stability of the community but a necessity to ensure its survival. Thou the rewards of such conflicts are often short lived by both sides this type of warfare is uncommon. The social, political and economic forces within each state forces the combatants to the peace table long before major gains have been made. The aftermath of these wars linger on for years as communities struggle with indoctrinate new worlds in their way of government.

Worlds and communities do exists outside the sphere of influence of the larger interstellar governments. Due to vast distances and economic forces these states survive. However, they are pressured by the same threats which dictate the actions of the larger communities. These are the most common form of interstellar warfare. Rarely do the larger nations come to the aid of these worlds since it would be construed as an act of aggressor by the larger community and some are just to far to provide effective aid.

Thou no formal treaty is in effect, a certain code of conduct has arisen from the centuries of interstellar warfare. The psychology of this seems to be based in the principles that mass destruction does not imprint itself well among races conquered by external forces. It is therefore deemed uncivilized to use weapons which destroy a race’s world or leaves parts of it uninhabitable. It seems to stem from the rationalization that worlds which have suffered greatly under the hands of the invaders are not easily pacified. Interstellar governments also realize it is a waste of resources and manpower to fight guerilla wars due to harsh treatment of the civilian population. Major campaigns have lost momentum due to militaries use of force or employment of weapons.

Another aspect of this psychology seems to be how the citizens of the warring comminutes see their enemy and the actions of their own militaries. It almost seems as if it is a public relations move until you look deeper into the society expected standard of warfare. The tolerance of different cultures and ideology have formed a basic code of standards which every race must adhere to in order to become a member of society. This is then translated into a standardized code laws which govern the interstellar community. Without this order of law no community could survive. It is therefore the burden of the military to react within those bounds while conducting the messy business of war.

As a general rule the action of the military reflect the society in which it was created. If the military is harsh and unforgiving in a society use to freedom and compassion the combatants are more reluctant to lay down their arms and will fight harder to maintain their ideology of their freedoms. The exact opposites can be said for the race whose compassion and tolerance for different Ideologies invades an oppressive system of government. This does not mean interstellar armed forces have not lost their ability to place fear in their enemy or crush them if necessary. It is an understanding that there job should do just enough damage to incapacitated their enemies while not destroying their way of life or their planet. Of course this is subjective to the standards placed upon the respective communities.

The following is a generalization of ideas put forth by most interstellar communities on the way wars should be conducted. It is by no means a standardized method of conduct used by militaries throughout known space.

1. Atomic weapons and there after effects have been deemed barbaric. Weapons which contaminate a worlds biosphere or weapons which kill thousands with each deployment are seen as demonic. Weapons which contain poison or genetic weapons intended to inflect suffering upon large sections of the population, fiendish.

2. Weapons which cause massive damage to a soldier body are deemed fiendish. Weapons which inflect damage intended to create suffering is demonic. Explosive rounds or rounds which are intended for larger targets used on soldier is deemed barbaric.

Maxim: Treat your enemy as you wish to be treated. The more horrific the tools employed the less likely you are to survive if the winds of war change.

3. Treatment of the civilian population and prisoners of war should be done with as much respect as possible as the situation demands. Wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages is seen as a waste since they will have to be rebuild.

Maxim: Damage to the civilian population and the planet should be kept to a minimum in order to pacify the population quicker.

Maxim: Wholesale slaughter of prisoners and civilian population is unadvised.

 

[Orr]

It's easier to get what you want with a smile...

... and a gun...

... then just with a smile alone.

Choices must be seen to have consequences.

 

[Piper]

Nuking the capital will just generate irreconcilable differences

This is worth it's weight in gold.

I missed my calling

Indeed you have.

 

[aramis]

Remember, Y'all, sometimes the whole point is simply to destroy the populations, rather than to take the population centers and/or conquer the population. Especially if there is religious or ethnic motivation.

 

[Carlobrand]

Remember, Y'all, sometimes the whole point is simply to destroy the populations, rather than to take the population centers and/or conquer the population. Especially if there is religious or ethnic motivation.

Well, yeah but - if you can eliminate the space-based defenses - that's the easy part. Now doing it the K'Kree way, trying to eliminate the local carnivore sapient without killing every living thing on the world, that's a little more difficult.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
Maxim: Damage to the civilian population and the planet should be kept to a minimum in order to pacify the population quicker.

Maxim: Wholesale slaughter of prisoners and civilian population is unadvised.

I'm thinking the Mongols would disagree with you. I'm thinking the Vargr might disagree too. Mr. Matt was looking for a tithe. If he were looking for allies or subjects or the maximum exploitable tax rate, I would agree. However, he was looking for a tithe. For that, it is sufficient to monitor them from orbit and kill anything that might endanger your control of orbital space, and then make it clear that the same happens elsewhere if they don't pay the tithe. The locals outraged by such barbarity are not your problem - they are the problem of the local government, and the consequences for failing to address that problem are not only quite clear but also have the advantage of doing much to address the problem. Nuke a rioting city, and the citizenry may be less inclined to riot.

As to the reaction of others, that would depend on whether there were others in position to react, which in turn depends on the interstellar political picture in that particular universe. A universe with big polities like the Imperium and the Zhodani would be a bad one in which to go playing Mongol Horde; even where they don't rule, some prey world might curry favor with them in exchange for their help. A balkanized universe of little individual worlds and clusters of worlds would be less ready to deal with that kind of brutality. In fact, it might take that kind of brutality for those worlds to realize that it would be a good idea to put aside their differences and form a larger, more powerful polity.

It is a sad truth: where there is insufficient strength to assign a consequence to brutality, brutality is a very effective tool of intimidation. It is also a truth that it often takes an external threat before people will put aside their differences and start working together. And those who favor brutality don't tend to be thinking about the long term. Aggression tends to be a tool of the impatient.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Carlobrand: These are some of my thoughts on the subject. It doesn’t mean I disagree with your use of brutality in certain cases, but there are other ways to take over a planet which are far less painful than the one you describe.

Brutality breeds contempt for the conquering force, which in turn creates an insurgency. It may take one or two generations to stop terrorist activity using such methods. By then, you have basically depopulated the planet and made it into a nuclear waste land. What use is such a planet to the conquering army?

Psychological warfare would be just as important as ground forces in interplanetary warfare. You want to rid the planet of the government and military forces but at the same time give something to the general population which gives them a better opportunity than the one they had under the old system of government. In this manner, you deign those wishing to fight, a steady stream of volunteers to continue the war. If you pacify the population, you can move your forces on to the next planet far more quickly than being overly brutal with them. You also deign the defending force any propaganda which could be used to encourage a strong resistance to the reign change costing you more men and supplies which could be used elsewhere.

Fear and intimidation go a long way to resolving most conflicts before they start. A single planet or small interstellar communities are not going to go up against something as large as the Imperium just on military resources alone. They would rather negotiate a peaceful settlement long before the first shot is fire. Only those planets with xenophobic governments and populations are going to tempt fate and take on an empire. A smart field commander would bypass these worlds (if possible.), and isolate them until the majority of the strategic goals were met and then they would go back and mop up those planets with whatever force was necessary.

The Darrians are an example of how a small interstellar community maintains their freedom in Traveller. You could say they’re bluffing about the “nova’ weapon. But for such a trick to take place they would have to prove to the communities around them that they could denote a star. Then the issue becomes, whether or not the communities around them would allow such a weapon to exist? And/or the surrounding governments are willing to waste the resources to take them out. Clearly there would be an ongoing covert operation to gain the information about the weapon since no one would want the other side to gain such an advantage.

 

[aramis]

Well, yeah but - if you can eliminate the space-based defenses - that's the easy part. Now doing it the K'Kree way, trying to eliminate the local carnivore sapient without killing every living thing on the world, that's a little more difficult.

And that's a reason for ground forces.

There are many reasons to use ground assaults... and depopulation for "psycho-green" and "religious zealotry" reasons are right up there.
So is terror and retributive fulfilment of prior threats. (Coming to mind is the Romans' salting the fields of a rebel city, and killing every tenth survivor of the city.)

Brutality does, as Rigel notes, tend to breed dissent...

...but it also can be a useful tool in the short run. Especially if the goal involves liberation of Group A from group B, and the brutality is all aimed at B, and is done very publicly. (Coming to mind is the brutality of the Fish Speakers in the Dune series.)

Likewise, if one has the forces (1/20 the population of the conquered or more emplaced is the rule of thumb), brutality can be the best suppression method. The pervasiveness of the occupation coupled with public brutality can crush the will to fight, especially if collaborators are lavishly and publicly rewarded. In short order, you have a strong division... and its just a matter of making life so intolerable for the non-collaborators that most give in.

 

[Matt123]

Remember, Y'all, sometimes the whole point is simply to destroy the populations, rather than to take the population centers and/or conquer the population. Especially if there is religious or ethnic motivation.

True, but the catch with that approach is the inherent instability of regimes that populate senior positions with psychopaths.

 

[McPerth]

Remember, Y'all, sometimes the whole point is simply to destroy the populations, rather than to take the population centers and/or conquer the population. Especially if there is religious or ethnic motivation.

True, but the catch with that approach is the inherent instability of regimes that populate senior positions with psychopaths.

That will depend on the whole situation, setting, etc...

I guess if a Kaffer world in 2300AD is bombed to genocide, many people will applaud it instead of complaining, to give you an example...

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, firebombing of civilians and even use of nuclear weapons here in the real world wasn't ordered by psychopaths.

System level invasion of a hard target, rather than sending a BatRon of Tigresses to completely inter dice a TL12 population 8- world, is all out war IMHO.

I just wonder if there are inter-polity treaties in the OTU governing world surrender vs an overwhelming fleet.

But if a world is high enough population and high enough TL to resist then blockade and interdiction is probably the best you can do unless you are willing to pay the material and moral cost.

The Sylean Federation/Imperium appears to have baulked at the atrocities of the Vilani consolidation wars during its expansionist era, while we have no evidence of atrocities during the frontier Wars or Solomani Rim War. The Invasion of Terra was a special event as much for political reasons as military - militarily blockade and interdiction could have been achieved at much less cost than the invasion. During the Invasion the Imperium restrains from dropping rocks or other WMD use.

 

[McPerth]

I just wonder if there are inter-polity treaties in the OTU governing world surrender vs an overwhelming fleet.

That's quite an interesting point. See this thread for a discussion about the subject.

 

[Orc65001]

You got that last bit wrong.

The Kafer have medical knowledge, they just don't use it in the same way we do because of the way they perceive pain.

Ok.. but according to the Kafer Sourcebook, p.54-55. Kafer medical technology and knowledge is almost non-existent.
"Kafer medical technology appears to be almost nonexistent. Wounded Kafers are left to suffer without the benefit of anesthetics (the notion of artificially reducing pain is anathema to a Kafer). Field surgery is limited to amputation of shattered limbs and the use of a hot iron for cauterizing the stump. The use of drugs to combat infections is in a very primitive state, consisting mostly of topical solutions like carbolic acid. This gap in Kafer technology is almost certainly due to a fundamental difference between human and Kafer philosophies."

As for bio-weapons, the Kafer most definitely used them and most likely several different kinds.

Ok … the only reference to Kafer using bio-weapons I could find was in the Aurora Sourcebook, p.11. Where it says Kafer Rot is a fungal blight deliberately released to destroy human crops, and that this had the effect of also causing several fungal diseases to arise.

The Kafer Sourcebook p.7 mentions a deadly virus appearing in Kafer held territory, which attacks terrestrial plants, animals and humans.

So the Kafer have rather limited medical technology yet are able to produce bio-weapons. This doesn't seem likely. But on p.62 /(sidebar) of the Kafer Sourcebook it clearly states that Kafer do use antiseptics and the like, so they must have some understanding of biology and medicine. Perhaps enough to produce bio-weapons.
On the other hand, the use of bio-weapons does not seem to fit with Kafer psychology. Facing the Aach*ah (Smart Barbarian) in battle, would seem to be the more likely approach adopted by the Kafer.

So while it is probably within their capabilities to produce a fungal infection for use as a bio-weapon, it is probably not an option they would take. I'm inclined to think of Kafer Rot as a (for Kafers) harmless and relatively minor fungal infection, which when transferred to terrestrial flora and fauna (humans included) becomes far more virulent and dangerous. The Kafer are simply the carriers and are functionally immune to it. It may even be one of the foot conditions that Kafer suffer from in cool, moist conditions or cold environments (Kafer Sourcebook, p.13).
The two references above p.11 Aurora Sourcebook and p.7 Kafer Sourcebook, could be interpreted as human perception of the situation rather than hard facts.

That will be my interpretation IMTU.

2300 setting is quite different from OTU and faces different challenges:

I'm using the 2300 setting as a resource, but MTU is more akin to Orbital (Zozer Games), starting date is 2120 mankind has colonised the solar system and is close to FTL (late TL9 - early TL10). The Kafer scouts encounter the solar system and there is a violent first contact. (Actually Gamma Serpentis, the Kafer home system, is listed in Orbital as one of the systems from which transmissions have been detected by SETI). This will be mankind's first contact and it will trigger his leap to the stars.

Thanks for the comments and ideas Orr and McPerth.

 

[Tiikeri]

System Invasion Medevac

This thread has very interesting and thought-provoking responses.

It occurred to me that the invading force's medical aid focus could be on rapid triage: treating soldiers who can be returned to duty in 72 hours and stabilizing more serious casualties until they can be gotten into low berth stasis and shipped to medical facilities at a major staging base in another system. An invasion force's equipment could include multi-dTon low berth cargo containers with built in power units for casualty evacuation.

Imagine the scene: Troop transports coming down and disgorging troops and vehicles, then moving to the division casualty collection point and picking up medevac cargo containers full of troops in suspended animation, and delivering them to immense orbiting freighters pressed into service as ambulance ships.

Adventure ideas:

Free traders could be pressed into ambulance service. Missions could include moving medevac containers from the a ground force's casualty collection point to an orbiting ambulance ship while dodging hostile fire, evacuating containers to the outer reaches of the system with a microjump because the inner system is too dangerous for large ambulance ships, jumping all the way to the major staging base, or even transferring the containers in deep space from a damaged high guard ship in a decaying orbit around the system's gas giant.

Missions on the defender's side could include capturing a vast casualty collection point and needing to find one man with crucial information, holding them hostage to force concessions from the invasion force commanders, ransoming them, or even stowing away to infiltrate the major support base. Depending on how large the forces are and how bloody the battle is, there could be entire junkyards of damaged battledress and combat armor which were left behind when the casualties were put into cold sleep. A pick and pull junkyard for battledress. I suppose this would be one source of all the surplus gear PCs get their hands on.

Independent missions:

* Finding thousands of containers on a forgotten battleground of the Fifth Frontier War, or an earlier conflict and racing against time to notify the Imperial authorities before the container power units begin to fail.

* Fighting against Zhodani agents looking for the same location with the goal of interrogating the defenseless casualties.

* Finding abandoned Imperial Navy containers, but they contain plague victims instead of casualties.

* Profiteering, offering ambulance services to the highest bidder.

 

[aramis]

During the US Civil War, blankets of patients with small pox and scarlet fever were intentionally sent into certain southern cities.

That's biowarfare without medical tech of note.

Once you have germ theory, you can get into bioweapon production by collection and dissemination, without ever needing to actually modify them.

Anthrax is a poor example - to be useful as a weapon requires special processing.

But Malaria... send some malarial monkeys and some anopheles mosquito eggs to the target zone, and turn them loose... Once the connection is that Mosquitos spread the disease, and that monkeys and apes can get it, you don't even need to know that it is a bacterial infection. And that connection was made WELL before the pathogen was isolated. Don't even really need germ theory - just that blood contact can spread it.

 

[Orr]

So the Kafer have rather limited medical technology yet are able to produce bio-weapons. That doesn't seem likely.

Don't confuse medical knowledge and technology with biological knowledge and technology. While the two somewhat overlap, they are and have been independent of each other. Aramis gave you an example of biological "weapons" being used during the US civil war and the Mongols were not alone in flinging plague victims into besieged cities by catapult.

The Kafer have colonized another planet within the Gamma Serpentis system and planets in several other systems each of which with individual biospheres. The Kafer build and use life support systems aboard their spaceships and installations. The Kafer are even able to keep another species, their Ylii slaves,alive, if not comfortable, aboard spaceships and installations.

Thinking that Kafer biological knowledge and technology is somehow lacking because the Kafer choose to limit personal medical technology doesn't make sense given what the Kafer are manifestly able to do.

Also, suggesting that the Kafer somehow happen to be carriers for a few diseases that also happen to be fatal to dozens of different species of Terran flora and fauna is special pleading. Here on Earth you'd be hard pressed to find a disease that kills both men and wheat, yet the Kafer are miraculously carrying around that very thing in/on their bodies like a low grade staph infection? Sure, whatever.

 

[Reban]

An invasion force's equipment could include multi-dTon low berth cargo containers with built in power units for casualty evacuation.

Imagine the scene: Troop transports coming down and disgorging troops and vehicles, then moving to the division casualty collection point and picking up medevac cargo containers full of troops in suspended animation, and delivering them to immense orbiting freighters pressed into service as ambulance ships.

I like that casualty collection container idea I'm going to incorporate that IMTU where I already have container based MASH and other medical facilities.

But Malaria... send some malarial monkeys and some anopheles mosquito eggs to the target zone, and turn them loose... Once the connection is that Mosquitos spread the disease, and that monkeys and apes can get it, you don't even need to know that it is a bacterial infection. And that connection was made WELL before the pathogen was isolated. Don't even really need germ theory - just that blood contact can spread it.

Apply this to the current invasion topic by sending in your weaponized disease vectors before the invasion starts. Things become a lot easier if the defenders are all suffering from Spanish Flu or something similar, and the civilian authorities are busy dealing with a planetwide epidemic. Vaccinate all your own troops before dropping them in.