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System level invasion

Traveller (like many works of speculative fiction) doesn't stand up well when being whacked with the reality stick, Big pieces fall off and ultimately, the whole thing can fall apart under too severe a critical eye.

Planetary invasion is part of the Traveller setting. Whether or not it's possible/practical/sensible in reality isn't really an issue.

Yes, large-scale military operations can be a logistical nightmare but instead of being a limiting factor, wouldn't it be better, in game terms, to see it as a possible source of adventure material?

Long, tenuous supply lines are an open invitation to commerce raiders. Mercenary units can be contracted to escort (or attack) supply ships. The sources of supply themselves may be vulnerable to raids or sabotage creating another opportunity for mercenary units.

Detached duty Scouts and subsidized merchant ships might be recalled and activated as auxiliaries. Commerce across a wide area is likely to be disrupted creating perils (and opportunities) for free traders, small merchant houses and smugglers.

The Kafer Invasion source book for Traveller 2300 is a goldmine of small-party opportunities for this kind of situation and a good source of inspiration.

@Timerover: Yes, logistics can be boring. I once tracked supply for a Macedonian invasion of Persia campaign. Do you want to know how much garlic a mule can carry? I don't, not anymore. ;)
 
Planetary invasion is part of the Traveller setting. Whether or not it's possible/practical/sensible in reality isn't really an issue.


How many invasions of high population (1+ billion), high tech, worlds are there in canonical history? As opposed to blockades or bombardments?

I can think of Earth during the Sol Rim war, but how many others are there?
 
@Hanson's: It would help if you could provide any details (as others have mentioned).

Are you roleplaying or wargaming?
How large are the respective sides?
Since this is the IMTU forum I'm assuming you're using a different setting from the OTU. Have any details or are you chumming the shark tank for ideas? ;)
 
...I do not regard an invasion of a planetary system with an inhabitable planet and a population in at least the millions as a possible operation. Again, that is my opinion. I believe that I am entitled to have opinions that are contrary to what some members of the forum may have, and even what some science fiction authors may have. I have provided sufficient information to show why I have that opinion. ...

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. What I'm trying to understand is why you have that opinion - specifically why you believe it's impossible as opposed to impractical.

I've read through your responses. I see where you cite sources that speak to the logistics of large-scale operations. There may be some variation from that - supplying hydrogen-fueled plants is a bit easier than supplying petroleum-fueled ones, and the energy weapons reduce some of the burden of ammunition supply, though not all of it - but men still have to eat, and if we buy into Striker then there's going to be a dramatic increase in the need for high tech spare parts and repair supplies, so I don't expect the logistical nightmare to end just because the tech improves. However, to my eye it looks doable - just wildly impractical. I don't see a strategic benefit to the exercise that warrants that level of effort and resource expenditure unless we're dealing with some mad ruler's whim. It looks rather like an exercise in pyramid-building: a ridiculous lot of resources and organizational effort with little to show for it at the end other than some Ozymandian, "Look at what I did and tremble," statement.

You've gotten some rather flippant replies here, but I have found you invariably to be well-informed and your views well-considered. I enjoy reading them. If there's an angle I'm not seeing, I'd very much like to know.
 
I can think of Earth during the Sol Rim war, but how many others are there?

IIRC:

  • Acording SMC's description of the 4518 LIR it spearheaded an invasion on Menorb, but it's described more as a coup than a full invasion, and there were huge TL differences
  • During FFW, Jewell was invaded by the Zhodani, but ended in retreat
  • The TASNS has several reports of High Pop world invasions during Rebellion, most of them ending with massive casualties (assumed both military and civilian) in both sides
  • In Knightfall (MT, also Rebellion times) the taking of a High Pop planet (IIRC Khisham) is described
  • The taking of the Glorious Empire by other Aslan also has some of them (also in Rebellion times)

Thats what I remember without checking sources...
 
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Yay for World War II stuff. Logistics are the key to any military operation. But the generals of World War I were shocked when they thought they were fighting in the 19th century. The generals of World War II were shocked when they thought they were fighting WW 1. The generals of Vietnam were shocked when they thought they were fighting WW2 (they sent tanks to Vietnam!) and so on.
So let’s pretend it’s viable or, more importantly part of your setting/campaign, and get back to the original question:
How would you handle a invasion into a system?
I figure Carlobrand has the salient points laid out. Essentially, the actual invasion of a capital system being very unlikely and very costly but the systematic invasion of outlying points/systems, resources, and blockade of said capital resulting in capitulation. The reason I agree with this being the most likely scenario is due to control of a population. It’s one of the things that makes my brain spin in 2300AD since there is no real reason for warfare when someone colonizes the same planet as you… it’s a FRICKING PLANET. You could have Australia and Canada in place with all of their populations and still have enough room to do what you wanted.

But if you wanted to control the stars, destroy an enemy or convert people to a religion then maybe it’s worth it. Science fiction, including Traveller, is full of many examples of that. Take Strephon’s Black Wars from the Rebellion as an extreme example.

Anti-gravity changes everything. Also, we can look to the examples of colonial times (falling afoul of my own argument above…) where colonies changed ownership due to wars and struggles but the locals did not really care one way or the other. They still have to pay taxes, they still have somebody telling them what to do. The local population (of a conquered people) who get conquered by someone else are likely to support whoever is currently holding a gun to their head.

On a 2300-related note, the real complication is a lack of lift/contragrav. This is what makes planetary invasions plausible in advanced sci-fi and yet subject to all of those other arguments (WW2 etc) in a 2300 setting.

So in 2300, we want to invade… how do we do it? I think a very similar approach.

1. Take outlying system object and set up supply chain. This is easier to do in 2300 than many settings due to the linear nature of FTL travel. You can put up a blockade a system out and still have an effect although it won’t be perfect.

2. Take out system objects/defenses piecemeal or isolate them.

3. Take out aerospace defenses and capital missile complexes. This is the real invasion since once you have the High Orbit/Ground, you can conduct unilateral operations against the surface. In 3rd Imperium, this is complicated by the availability of lift to anyone with an aircar but in 2300, you can take complete control of orbital infrastructure.

4. From this point on, you have several options:

a) Threaten colony into submission by nudging an asteroid over their main city and flashing an evil smile. This is likely to result in surrender but not acquiescence. Expect significant underground rebellions/extremist movements composed of any military infrastructure that existed on the planet. Since no combat occurred, military remains completely intact and supplied. Expect tanks to be hidden, missiles stashed and crates of autoguns to find their way into the rural areas to prepare for “The Day!”

b) Blockade. The time-honored method which is dependent on whether they are self-sufficient or not. As we’ve pointed out though, the population is likely to not be happy about living in the 18th century. Blockades over a solar system are likely to be costly (personnel and materiel), lengthy and irritating. Constant operations are going to play heck on vessels and crew. They are also more likely to end with a conclusion that does not involve complete control (imperial) of a planet but more governorship/overwatch/protectorate since you’re essentially getting everyone to surrender by means of economics.

c) Invasion. Granted, a planet with a billion people is a hard/impossible target. In 2300, there simply aren’t any except Earth (maybe Tirane, I forget). However, with a billion people, I’m guessing you’ll have 999,999,999 different factions. So let’s not assume it’s a monolithic military machine that is defending the place. Plenty of room here for 5th Column, politics, deception etc.

But let’s assume a more modest population of 100 million people in Australia on our alien Terra Nova planet. The rest of the planet has scattered settlements but the main colony is Down Under. Since we control aerospace, we bring in our dropships and set up a deploy zone on the opposite hemisphere from the main colony. The invader lands enough equipment to get air defenses and other equipment set up and then begins the troop build-up. Then the air assault starts… and pretty soon you’re in a good old-fashioned ground war.
Costly, nasty, and prone to defeat with no place to retreat is no way to run a war but there you have it.

However, you have the High Orbit support so you can do drops and strikes throughout the planet. You also have the build-up of forces to take and hold locations/population centers. Another advantage is that after the nasty ground war, you’ve theoretically disposed of that military infrastructure or (hopefully) devastated their materiel stores.

In the end, that’s why a GM should approach an invasion carefully… the victors have to occupy the urban and resource areas along with the population. Some effort should be spared for that thought, what is the end-game of the invaders? Do they need the whole planet or can they take part of it and hold it? Can an invasion consist of a smaller force for harassment purposes?

Politics, espionage and psyops are going to be huge in such a campaign. The invasion will be costly only to end in serious guerilla warfare unless the PR is maintained. As mentioned above, most folks will just settle down and get back to the business of business regardless of who is paying the taxes. But war crimes, evil empires and oppression are likely to result in major problems in the long run.

Bringing us back to... what is the goal here? Once we know that, it can be determined the approach that should be taken by a polity.

d) Too much trouble? Just drop the asteroid… humans meet dinosaurs.

[I'm reminded of a recent and common complaint about military sci-fi... Basically, most of it's not sci-fi. It's World War II with lasers and space ships. We use the past to build our ideas but it certainly should not shackle them. Especially in fiction or gaming.]
 
It is the bare mimimum for a high population world. :)

My apologies for not being more clear. Why does it have to be a hi-tech, hi-pop world? No mention of size was made in the original post.

Similarly, it doesn't have to be an invasion for conquest. Aren't smash and grabs a fairly common theme?
 
Another book that covers the subject of invading a system/planet is The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge. The story revolves around something that had been impossible up to that time - one planet conquering a planet in another system. The Stainless Steel Rat goes undercover to find out how it is done.
 
Traveller (like many works of speculative fiction) doesn't stand up well when being whacked with the reality stick, Big pieces fall off and ultimately, the whole thing can fall apart under too severe a critical eye.

Planetary invasion is part of the Traveller setting. Whether or not it's possible/practical/sensible in reality isn't really an issue.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of successfully invading a world of any sizable population, (for some value of sizable), because of too many real world factors.

Thankfully I remind myself we're talking about an RPG setting here and that simplifies matters greatly. ;)
 
Another book that covers the subject of invading a system/planet is The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge. The story revolves around something that had been impossible up to that time - one planet conquering a planet in another system. The Stainless Steel Rat goes undercover to find out how it is done.

"Pas Ratunkowy; where are your fuses?!" :D

Man ... I loved that book. Whole series, really.

Clever solution, too.
 
GURPS Ground Forces notes the following p73-77. It's pretty bare-bones and addresses basic invasion. But I think a key factor is the use of Lift Infantry (grav belts) and grav tanks/fighter.

NEXUS WARFARE
Imperium doctrine states "It is accepted among Imperial military thinkers that one cannot conquer any world worth having. One can, however, control it."

Identify the various nexuses and control them. These are basic categories that are fairly easy to figure out Power, Communications, Transportation (noting the starport is often the first target), Political etc.

INVADING A WORLD
1. Recon--Looking for planetary defense installations, command-control centers, and communications nodes. Usually done by inserting Sylean Rangers or Marine commandos. Infil/exfiltration usually accomplished by use of IISS vessels (that's interesting). It also notes that planetary invasions are usually the result of over a year's worth of recon by Intelligence. Something which, in the Imperium, would be possible.

(Raises an interesting point in the Imperium... most planetary defenses and installations would likely be known to the 3I prior to a revolution or secession.)

2. Space Superiority--Necessary to establish control over orbital space. Rare to accomplish complete control but a fleet screen should be in place to respond to any threats from the surface.

3.Orbital Bombardment/Initial Raids--Selected targets engaged by Navy on surface. Priority to PDG (planetary defense guns) or anything capable of damaging fleet assets. Ortillery is closely controlled but sometimes turned on appropriate power and comms nexus. At the same time, Marine units begin dropping in to seize high-value targets such as starports, resource sources. Other raids are launched to distract and demoralize.

4. Pathfinder landings--Rapid interface and Marines seize landing area. Orbital fire shifts to suppress all enemy forces beyond 250 miles of horizon around deployment area. Naval fighter support also detached to assist with deployment.

5. Main Force Landing--Under fleet escort, main landers come in. Support fire is its most intense during this period. EW used extensively to cover descent. Raider units on the ground identify hidden EW or PDG sites that go active and neutralize them. (Anything that maintained a low profile before...)

6. Warfare--"The Imperial mode of combat emphasizes quick action and overwhelming firepower." When attacking, firepower is used liberally against all targets.

GURPS Ground also has decent info on logistics and supply. Sufficient to allow a GM enough info to extrapolate some details without getting bogged down.
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The more I think about it... it's plausible to invade a Traveller-era world. Sure, a capital planet or High Pop is going to be a slaughter. But most planets aren't that large. I think two key things make it possible:

1) Contragrav... really this is a complete game-changer. Interface and resupply is fairly effortless once planetary defenses are down. The ability to lift and drop material and men without effort makes it very possible. Granted, they are exposed doing so but that's why they call it combat.

2) Fusion Power/Fuel. I don't have GURPS vehicles or Mongoose Vehicles (don't get me started). I do have TNE books but they utilize lower tech in many places. I'm not sure if grav tanks even use fuel?! They have fusion power plants so they theoretically run much further on much less. This same powerplant supplies energy for all beam weapons with the ability to recharge on the fly.

EDIT: I found the section on fuel. A TL11 grav tank fusion plant functions for 5yrs on internal fuel. But it is recommended to provide maintenance between every 6-19hrs (depending on model) of active use. Approx 4hrs of maintenance. (Note this is an optional rule in GURPS Vehicles).

The wear on parts and people remains the same but I think logistics get a bit more possible when you take into account those things. No hauling of ammunition except missiles and grenades in most cases. Grav-belts and lifters provide mobility on the ground in amazing advances. In addition, traversing the interface for logistical reasons is much more efficient with contragrav where an air-raft/g-carrier/g-truck etc can double as an interface transport.

In the end, you still don't want to invade a heavily populated planet because even if you win... you now have 1 billion people who hate you. But hey, that's no reason why someone wouldn't do it. History is replete with invasions of distant locales and being overstretched for no good reason.
 
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Of course you're entitled to your opinion. What I'm trying to understand is why you have that opinion - specifically why you believe it's impossible as opposed to impractical.

I've read through your responses. I see where you cite sources that speak to the logistics of large-scale operations. There may be some variation from that - supplying hydrogen-fueled plants is a bit easier than supplying petroleum-fueled ones, and the energy weapons reduce some of the burden of ammunition supply, though not all of it - but men still have to eat, and if we buy into Striker then there's going to be a dramatic increase in the need for high tech spare parts and repair supplies, so I don't expect the logistical nightmare to end just because the tech improves. However, to my eye it looks doable - just wildly impractical. I don't see a strategic benefit to the exercise that warrants that level of effort and resource expenditure unless we're dealing with some mad ruler's whim. It looks rather like an exercise in pyramid-building: a ridiculous lot of resources and organizational effort with little to show for it at the end other than some Ozymandian, "Look at what I did and tremble," statement.

You've gotten some rather flippant replies here, but I have found you invariably to be well-informed and your views well-considered. I enjoy reading them. If there's an angle I'm not seeing, I'd very much like to know.

I repeat, if someone on the forum or for a games supplement wants to perform a planetary invasion that is their decision. I have expressed my viewpoint.
 
I repeat, if someone on the forum or for a games supplement wants to perform a planetary invasion that is their decision. I have expressed my viewpoint.

As you wish. In the absence of further information, we can agree to disagree.

My apologies for not being more clear. Why does it have to be a hi-tech, hi-pop world? No mention of size was made in the original post.

Similarly, it doesn't have to be an invasion for conquest. Aren't smash and grabs a fairly common theme?

No parameters were given, so we've explored either extreme. The case of the low tech low pop world is pretty straightforward, so there's not much to say on that front.

GURPS Ground Forces notes the following p73-77. It's pretty bare-bones and addresses basic invasion. But I think a key factor is the use of Lift Infantry (grav belts) and grav tanks/fighter.

NEXUS WARFARE
Imperium doctrine states "It is accepted among Imperial military thinkers that one cannot conquer any world worth having. One can, however, control it."
...

Good point, and good post. For the purposes of an interstellar polity, it may be sufficient to hold only the starports and the orbital space. Beating down the planetary defenses and the local troops is still a big and very expensive proposition, that cost-benefit analysis is still an issue, but between the advantage of the "high ground" (once you've eliminated the planetary defenses) and the more restricted objective, holding what you take might be a little more doable. The locals are faced with a choice between continuing to take punishing bombardments as they keep up the fight, and ceding the starports in exchange for a cease-fire. In the context of the Imperium, where the starport is Imperial territory and the world is otherwise self-governing, that can make it worthwhile for the local government to agree to a cease-fire once they've established that further resistance isn't going to get them anything but hurt.
 
Agreed. I think an important component, as I mentioned above, is figuring out WHY you’re invading an entire planet. Another very key component is the tech level available to both sides (or setting). A full 3I setting makes it doable but painful. But, as you pointed out, the Imperium’s actual goal is rarely occupation. Some specific Imperium goals:

-Economic blockade (this includes High Orbit and holding a starport)
-Removal of leadership (Marine strike force, rapid trans-atmo deployment resulting in massive casualties at Parliament/President Palace/etc. Short interim occupation of central facilities until new leadership shows up)
-Punitive (depending on reason… raid against specific industrial/military/government target. No occupation. In the case of WMD’s, I read somewhere that the punishment can range from the entire government/faction to even population centers themselves. Essentially making the punishment worse than the crime.)
-Secession (this is where you might have the full invasion depending on the numbers of citizenry involved)

Imperial War doctrine is based on simply maintaining the Imperium unless direct intervention is necessary. So the economic blockade is likely the most common tactic with occasional direct strikes against specific targets via Trans-Atmo-Assault (Marines). Infi/exfil of raider teams is far more likely with contragrav available.

A 2300 setting (my favorite) is a bit different but the populations involved are often much smaller. This setting definitely can learn from the Pacific strategy of the Allies. The insertion and establishment of a beachhead is far more difficult without contragrav so there definitely need to be some TAV’s in future supplements (hint, Colin).

The infrastructure and ability to blockade/destroy colonies is far more effective in this setting. Logistics plays a far bigger role for both the colony and invading force. With a greater dependence on the need for advanced goods and a smaller tech base at the colony, a polity can achieve some major gains by blockading. Even more can be gained by knocking out specific infrastructure… taking out rectenna/solar arrays or fusion plants destroys entire power grids, communications satellites cripple coordination. Populations are smaller so occupation is more feasible but control of lift facilities or capabilities is huge. An invading unit without lift facilities is basically on its own.

It goes against my argument from above but I have been looking into colonial politics/actions in the 17th-19th century to get some idea of various themes.

One theme which I came across in some WWII reading raised interesting ideas. In the beginning of the Allies collaboration, the Brits were stalling America from invading Europe. The US accused them of using the Allies to reestablish their far-flung empire by rescuing their colonies. That was one of the reasons why Operation Torch (African campaign) was the first major operation. There were lots of fights about it at the higher levels. The letters between President and Prime Minister are all online…

A 2300 spin comes from the Kafer War. Maybe the Alliance or any cooperation is complicated by France/Germany or someone else pushing to use allied forces to liberate their colonial possessions. Essentially trying to use them the same way as the UK tried to use the Allies in WWII. I wonder if someone wants TANSTAAFL back?
 
One theme which I came across in some WWII reading raised interesting ideas. In the beginning of the Allies collaboration, the Brits were stalling America from invading Europe. The US accused them of using the Allies to reestablish their far-flung empire by rescuing their colonies. That was one of the reasons why Operation Torch (African campaign) was the first major operation. There were lots of fights about it at the higher levels. The letters between President and Prime Minister are all online…

If the US had attempted an invasion prior to 1944, we would have had our heads handed to us by the Germans. Without the battle experience of North Africa and Italy, along with the learning experience for amphibious invasions, Normandy would have been a total disaster. I would strongly suggest that you actually read some of the official histories, rather than just reading the bellyaching of the American Chiefs of Staff. Also read the DA Pamphlet covering Operation Barbarossa.

There was also this tiny matter of having enough landing craft for the invasion. I would suggest you read about that as well. They barely had enough as it was for Normandy. I would also suggest reading about the Artificial Ports. And then there was the requirement that the Luftwaffe be defeated over France prior to the invasion. There also was this small matter of winning the Battle of the Atlantic prior to any invasion.
 
I would strongly suggest that you actually read some of the official histories, rather than just reading the bellyaching of the American Chiefs of Staff. Also read the DA Pamphlet covering Operation Barbarossa.

... I would suggest you read about that as well.

Now you're being rude. Nowhere in my post are you able to determine the sources of my reading being inferior to your own (other than the actual letters between the President and Prime Minister).

I get it, you're some kind of an expert. I don't care.

Please quit with the implied insults as to my "inferior" knowledge.
 
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