Hanson's Roughriders
SOC-9
How would you handle a invasion into a system?
System level invasion
- Thread starter Hanson's Roughriders
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Depends on what the invasion is for in game.
If it is a plot device then I can just make up the details.
If I want to game it then I use a boardgame-like resolution.
If it is a plot device then I can just make up the details.
If I want to game it then I use a boardgame-like resolution.
There's a huge number of variables to that situation.
In broad general terms:
1. You may need to gain control of a refueling source. This is dependant on the structure of your fleet and the astrographics of the system. You may need it for yourself or simply to deny it to the enemy.
2. Isolate the target. Eliminate or neutralize any opposing fleet and gain superiority over the 100 diameter jump limit.
3. Engage planetary defenses. This will be heavily influenced by the nature and strength of said defenses (obviously). Space to surface bombardment and/or targeted assault landings may be required.
4. Gain airspace superiority over targeted landing sites. Saturate any ground-based anti-air defences.
5. Bring on the troops and put on the finest show since Eannatum led the boys from Lagash in their celebrated trouncing of the Ummaites*.
In game terms, you really should have a set of victory criteria; some goals which, having been achieved, will bring about the capitulation of the defenders.
The out of print GDW boardgame "Invasion Earth" covers this in a Traveller-adaptable format. The MegaTraveller supplement COACC has a brief essay on the subject, too. I can't, however recommend purchasing either unless you have a compelling interest.
Hope this helps.
*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_the_Vultures
In broad general terms:
1. You may need to gain control of a refueling source. This is dependant on the structure of your fleet and the astrographics of the system. You may need it for yourself or simply to deny it to the enemy.
2. Isolate the target. Eliminate or neutralize any opposing fleet and gain superiority over the 100 diameter jump limit.
3. Engage planetary defenses. This will be heavily influenced by the nature and strength of said defenses (obviously). Space to surface bombardment and/or targeted assault landings may be required.
4. Gain airspace superiority over targeted landing sites. Saturate any ground-based anti-air defences.
5. Bring on the troops and put on the finest show since Eannatum led the boys from Lagash in their celebrated trouncing of the Ummaites*.
In game terms, you really should have a set of victory criteria; some goals which, having been achieved, will bring about the capitulation of the defenders.
The out of print GDW boardgame "Invasion Earth" covers this in a Traveller-adaptable format. The MegaTraveller supplement COACC has a brief essay on the subject, too. I can't, however recommend purchasing either unless you have a compelling interest.
Hope this helps.
*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_the_Vultures
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Looking at it from the standpoint from real-world logistics, if the planet has a population in the millions or higher, a successful interstellar invasion is not in the realm of possibility. You might pull it off it is a low-population relatively inhabitable world, of if the world requires domed living. The other option is pretty much eliminate the population of the world and replace it with your own colonists, after the radiation levels are down a bit, or whatever plagues unleashed have run their course. The previous comments are based on reading a lot regarding World War 2 logistics in support of the US Army overseas, and US Army training in supply. See signature.
Asteroid belts might be the easiest to take, but I have not thoroughly analyzed that as yet. It depends on the size of the Belt, and if they have a fragmented government structure, as it likely.
However, it is your own Traveller Universe, and you can do whatever you wish or can imagine.
Asteroid belts might be the easiest to take, but I have not thoroughly analyzed that as yet. It depends on the size of the Belt, and if they have a fragmented government structure, as it likely.
However, it is your own Traveller Universe, and you can do whatever you wish or can imagine.
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
As far as pacification of the population goes, it would rely on its knowledge of the invaders. If the population believes the invaders are better than the present planetary government then you’d have a rather short military campaign. Granted if the population believes otherwise then things could get ugly for the invaders. If it’s a lone planet against something like the Imperium, then surrender would be an act of self preservation.
A world that relies on trade is going to surrender far more quickly than a self sufficient world. Destroying the planet’s infrastructure for a culture whose livelihood depends on interstellar trade could be a death sentence or in loss of capital for the rich.
Attitude of the population is another factor.
Invasions by a large interstellar community against a lone world are only done by aggressive races with no care for the planet’s population with only an eye for the planet's resource. I suspect blockades are more prevalent and a close eye is kept on the planet for full scale military action, unless it is seen as a bargaining chip.
A world that relies on trade is going to surrender far more quickly than a self sufficient world. Destroying the planet’s infrastructure for a culture whose livelihood depends on interstellar trade could be a death sentence or in loss of capital for the rich.
Attitude of the population is another factor.
Invasions by a large interstellar community against a lone world are only done by aggressive races with no care for the planet’s population with only an eye for the planet's resource. I suspect blockades are more prevalent and a close eye is kept on the planet for full scale military action, unless it is seen as a bargaining chip.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Be sure to pass that on to Marc Miller. Maybe you can convince him to cut all the "Invasion: Earth" pages out of the games reprints.
I believe that I did say,
What GDW did in the past was their decision or what Mr. Miller does in the future is up to him. I have no control over it in any way, shape, or form.
The basis for my statement is based on reading the US Army official histories of World War 2 covering Quartermaster operations in the war against Germany and Japan, Global Logistics and Strategy (both volumes), and the logistic support of the armies in the European Theater of Operations in World War 2 (both volumes). It also is based on several different versions of FM 101-10, FM 101-10, Staff Officers' Field Manual-Organization, Technical,
and Logistical Data, ranging from 1941 to 1987. That reading also includes the US Department of Army pamphlets covering German operations against the partisans in the Balkans and behind German lines in Russia. I am not sure if any of the designers at GDW had read or made use of any of that material.
GDW?
The House that designed the Europa game series?
I'm betting that they read a book or two themselves.
On the subject of books, you might consider Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", Piper's "Space Viking" and Wells' "War of the Worlds". Planetary invasion is an old and respected science fiction theme.
But blockades are useless in habitable planets. Earth could be under blockade for many years just now and we could have not even noticed it.
As I understand, that's just what the IISS does when interdicting a planet to protect a developing culture, and it's not a hostile act nor intended to make them surrunder.
Insufficient data. Are you invading or defending? What are the resources available to the attacker and defender - defender's population and tech level, attacker's ships and available troops (and tech level), and so forth? Is the system well settled or are the population and resources concentrated in the primary world? Are there forces external to the system that will come to the aid of the system, or is the system alone? Is there a significant tech level gap between the invader and the defender? If you are the invader, do you want the primary world, or will it serve your needs to isolate the primary and hold the rest of the system? If you are the defender, do you have the resources to contest the entire system?
Almost anything is in the realm of possibility. The cost-benefit analysis - that's where things get nasty. A population, say, in the tens of millions could hypothetically support an active military in the hundreds of thousands. Can you deliver and supply the hundreds of thousands that would be necessary to defeat that force - over the months and maybe years that would be necessary to defeat that force? Even if the force is poor in tech and you can defeat it handily, can you afterward sustain the level of occupation force that would maintain your hold on the world?
If the invader is marshaling the forces of several equivalent or better worlds to pull it off and the defender - for whatever reason - cannot mount an equivalent defense, it is possible. However, a hundred-thousand man army means a couple hundred thousand dTons in passenger transport plus maybe as much in cargo space for tanks, artillery and related equipment. That's a squadron of battleship-sized transports, MCr70,000 - MCr80,000 per ship, and you might need several such for several hundred thousand troops. And then there's the naval force to protect such troops and to suppress defenses enough that they can get to ground without being slaughtered. And, the supply needs of one division of 10,000 or so is measured in hundreds of metric tons per day.
It is a very large and very expensive operation requiring a massive up front expenditure and a considerable daily expenditure, at the end of which you will own a world whose wealth will likely not make up that cost for decades. It only gets worse the more populated the world is. In the Traveller setting, the more conservative and cheaper way to do the job is to isolate the system, then isolate and besiege the main world and wait for them to get sick and tired of being bombed from orbit.
An interstellar war in Traveller is more likely to look like the WW-II defeat of Japan than the WW-II defeat of Germany, with small underpopulated systems being taken and held as bases from which to push forward the advance while isolating strong points. You want to take Jewell? You take the systems around Jewell to deprive it of reinforcement and commerce, then you take Jewell's gas giant and set up a base on the GG moon, then you move in and take Jewell's orbital space and make it impossible for ships to jump in or out without coming under heavy fire - a nasty fight since you've got to deal with Jewell's system defense boats and planetary defenses. Then you make life on Jewell miserable by bombing power plants from orbit, also bombing any heavy industry that might be used to supply or repair its system defense capabilities. You bomb any defense that can oppose or weaken your bombing campaign, and you bomb their military infrastructure. If you want to hurry things and are of a particularly ruthless inclination, you bomb water pumping stations and sewage treatment facilities, along with warehouse districts and other infrastructure associated with storing and shipping goods. Bombs aren't cheap, but they cost a whole lot less than a tank. Eventually the besieged will tire of living life in the 18th century.
IMHO,
First the aggressor decides what his objective is. Why does he want the system, and what fate does he want to impose on it? How much of his own resources is he willing to commit to his objective?
* Destruction. Carthago Delenda Est.
* Neutralization of a specific asset or capability, such as the system's shipyards, navy, bases, or other assets or capabilities. This could even be something like a fleet liberating a system from a pirate fleet or an enemy occupation force.
* Capture. The aggressor wants to possess rather than destroy the system. What is valuable about the system? Is it a vital refueling point? A bottleneck that the aggressor wants to control? Does he want the economic assets? Does he want the native population to work for him or does he want to replace them with a population loyal to him?
If I were going to game out a system-wide invasion, I would do it like this.
1. Reconnaissance. The aggressor would send in clandestine recon teams years before the invasion to gather intelligence on the military assets, defense weaknesses, the political will to resist, and so on. He would set up a permanent espionage presence.
2. Construction of a support base network outside the system to support the invasion fleet. Construction and procurement of the equipment and supplies. Raising armies and building fleets.
3. Creation of a Fifth Column in the target system which would destabilize the the political situation, infiltrate the military and other institutions, and prepare to attack vital targets like key leaders, military installations, deep space sensors, shipyards, starports, and the like. This can include political and social attack such as convincing the population to go along with the aggressor's agenda, like engaging in a media campaign to divert public interest from military spending or reinforcing defenses. Develop organized crime networks to destabilize the society and create channels to move people, money and equipment secretly.
4. Fleet scout elements secretly arrive in system to function as an advance guard. They could be disguised as free traders or whatever else, or they could be stealthy military ships.
5. Prepare the fleets and armies and attack.
* The invasion fleet jumps for the target system.
* During jump week, the Fifth Column attacks key leaders, communications, military assets, power generation, life support, sensors, starports, etc. The criminal networks attack internal security forces and create as much havoc as possible.
* The fleet arrives in system and makes contact with the scouts/advance guard. The advance guard secures a refueling point. The advance guard is reinforced by fleet elements as they jump in until the refueling point is secure.
* When enough fleet elements have arrived in system, the fleet begins the reduction of system defenses. Depending on how the system is defended, the fleet might methodically destroy outlying defenses before proceeding to the mainworld, rush for the mainworld with it all its strength, or send detachments to engage the system defenses while the assault element attacks the mainworld. Neutralize defending fleets, then defending installations like monitors and installations on moons and asteroids, then the defense installations on the targeted world or worlds. Assuming the aggressor doesn't want to turn the target worlds into radioactive bocce balls, use the Fifth Column to locate and attack meson emplacement sensors until the fleet can land marines. Be prepared to accept extreme casualties. A good example from CT is that the Battle for Terra consumed so much of the Imperium's military strength that its fleets couldn't continue their advance. IMTU, the Sol system is saturated with wreckage, large parts of Terra are radioactive, and what remains of the population seethes with hatred. The Imperium lost a generation of experienced military personnel, a sizable fraction of the nobility, and decades of industrial production.
* Land assault forces and establish a bridgehead. Continue landing ground forces and attack space defenses and the world's defending ground forces. Depending on the size and tech level of the defenders, victory could take years or decades. It depends how much the aggressor wants to preserve rather than destroy the target worlds.
* The invasion fleet continues neutralizing fleets, spaceborne defenses, and outlying worlds in the system. The invasion fleet guards against fleets coming from outside the system to aid the target worlds, receives reinforcements, conducts repairs, replenishes supplies, and supports the ground forces.
The battle grinds on until the aggressor triumphs or is forced to withdraw.
There are plenty of adventure opportunities at each stage.
First the aggressor decides what his objective is. Why does he want the system, and what fate does he want to impose on it? How much of his own resources is he willing to commit to his objective?
* Destruction. Carthago Delenda Est.
* Neutralization of a specific asset or capability, such as the system's shipyards, navy, bases, or other assets or capabilities. This could even be something like a fleet liberating a system from a pirate fleet or an enemy occupation force.
* Capture. The aggressor wants to possess rather than destroy the system. What is valuable about the system? Is it a vital refueling point? A bottleneck that the aggressor wants to control? Does he want the economic assets? Does he want the native population to work for him or does he want to replace them with a population loyal to him?
If I were going to game out a system-wide invasion, I would do it like this.
1. Reconnaissance. The aggressor would send in clandestine recon teams years before the invasion to gather intelligence on the military assets, defense weaknesses, the political will to resist, and so on. He would set up a permanent espionage presence.
2. Construction of a support base network outside the system to support the invasion fleet. Construction and procurement of the equipment and supplies. Raising armies and building fleets.
3. Creation of a Fifth Column in the target system which would destabilize the the political situation, infiltrate the military and other institutions, and prepare to attack vital targets like key leaders, military installations, deep space sensors, shipyards, starports, and the like. This can include political and social attack such as convincing the population to go along with the aggressor's agenda, like engaging in a media campaign to divert public interest from military spending or reinforcing defenses. Develop organized crime networks to destabilize the society and create channels to move people, money and equipment secretly.
4. Fleet scout elements secretly arrive in system to function as an advance guard. They could be disguised as free traders or whatever else, or they could be stealthy military ships.
5. Prepare the fleets and armies and attack.
* The invasion fleet jumps for the target system.
* During jump week, the Fifth Column attacks key leaders, communications, military assets, power generation, life support, sensors, starports, etc. The criminal networks attack internal security forces and create as much havoc as possible.
* The fleet arrives in system and makes contact with the scouts/advance guard. The advance guard secures a refueling point. The advance guard is reinforced by fleet elements as they jump in until the refueling point is secure.
* When enough fleet elements have arrived in system, the fleet begins the reduction of system defenses. Depending on how the system is defended, the fleet might methodically destroy outlying defenses before proceeding to the mainworld, rush for the mainworld with it all its strength, or send detachments to engage the system defenses while the assault element attacks the mainworld. Neutralize defending fleets, then defending installations like monitors and installations on moons and asteroids, then the defense installations on the targeted world or worlds. Assuming the aggressor doesn't want to turn the target worlds into radioactive bocce balls, use the Fifth Column to locate and attack meson emplacement sensors until the fleet can land marines. Be prepared to accept extreme casualties. A good example from CT is that the Battle for Terra consumed so much of the Imperium's military strength that its fleets couldn't continue their advance. IMTU, the Sol system is saturated with wreckage, large parts of Terra are radioactive, and what remains of the population seethes with hatred. The Imperium lost a generation of experienced military personnel, a sizable fraction of the nobility, and decades of industrial production.
* Land assault forces and establish a bridgehead. Continue landing ground forces and attack space defenses and the world's defending ground forces. Depending on the size and tech level of the defenders, victory could take years or decades. It depends how much the aggressor wants to preserve rather than destroy the target worlds.
* The invasion fleet continues neutralizing fleets, spaceborne defenses, and outlying worlds in the system. The invasion fleet guards against fleets coming from outside the system to aid the target worlds, receives reinforcements, conducts repairs, replenishes supplies, and supports the ground forces.
The battle grinds on until the aggressor triumphs or is forced to withdraw.
There are plenty of adventure opportunities at each stage.
Hanson's Roughriders
SOC-9
Fantastic stuff chaps!
On the asteroid theory - I was suddenly reminded of a small treatise in the back of the Battle fleet Gothic rule book titled - Rocks are not cheap, wherein they discuss the cost of throwing large asteroids at planets as weaponry.
So a little more detail - i am really looking at the steps necessary at attacking a system and what would be needed and what steps to take. Perhaps I should be clear in my goal - i am currently looking at a cold war scenario in which two large powers are facing off and more or less we have a Doomsday galaxy clock. Of course when the players start invasion occurs - its a suggestion for a team Yankee / twilight 2000 scenario in Traveller.
On the asteroid theory - I was suddenly reminded of a small treatise in the back of the Battle fleet Gothic rule book titled - Rocks are not cheap, wherein they discuss the cost of throwing large asteroids at planets as weaponry.
So a little more detail - i am really looking at the steps necessary at attacking a system and what would be needed and what steps to take. Perhaps I should be clear in my goal - i am currently looking at a cold war scenario in which two large powers are facing off and more or less we have a Doomsday galaxy clock. Of course when the players start invasion occurs - its a suggestion for a team Yankee / twilight 2000 scenario in Traveller.
That would have helped from the beginning. As Carlobrand noted, any answer depends entirely on the details.
The easiest way that situation to arise is to have the two superpowers on the planet already staring each other down across a DMZ tens of thousands of kilometers long. This way you'll sidestep many of the huge logistical problems timerover mentioned.
Both sides will have trouble deploying significant reinforcements to the world and neither side on-planet can accede to a ceasefire against the wishes of their interstellar master, so the fighting will grind down to T2000 level you're looking for.
"large" = multistellar?
Forgot about this part.
This is Traveller, not Warhamster's Battlefleet Gothic, and in Traveller rocks are cheap. Very very cheap thanks to Traveller's m-drive.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I read Space Viking shortly after it was published in 1963, and the same with Starship Troopers. I presently have two hard copies of Space Viking along with the download from Project Gutenberg, and one copy of Starship Troopers. The one true system invasion in Starship Troopers is of Marduk, and the Space Viking invaders had a considerable amount of support from the population of Marduk in suppressing Makann's People's Watchmen and restoring a legitimate government to power. I would not call that a system invasion with the objective of conquest.
In Starship Troopers, the objective was to eliminate the Bugs from any invaded planet, not conquer them and rule over them. I believe that I made allowance for that.
I understand that planetary conquest is a very common theme in science fiction writing. I would recommend reading A. E. Van Vogt's World of Null-A, and also James Schmitz's short story, "The Truth About Cushgar" in his book Agent of Vega. Then there is Christopher Anvil's Pandora's Planet, along with various sequels. I have also read, several times, H. G. Well's War of the Worlds, which essentially started the whole genre of alien invasion and conquest of Earth (or other planets). I simply do not regard it as a viable strategy. I believe that I am entitled to hold that opinion, unpopular though it may be.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
There is this saying which appears periodically: "Amateurs talk about strategy and tactics, professionals talk about logistics."
I imagine that the GDW designers did read a lot of military history. Plugging logistics into a war game is going to make for a very boring game, however. I would suggest you look at SPI's War on Ice, covering a hypothetical war in Antarctica, where logistics is included, and essentially dominates the game. I have a copy of that as well. I even tried to play it a couple of times.
I did forget to mention the US Department of Army Pamphlet No. 20-261a. THE GERMAN CAMPAIGNIN RUSSIA: PLANNING AND OPERATIONS (1940-1942), which spends quite a bit of the book covering the logistic problems encountered by the German in Operation Barbarossa. I have that in both hard copy and a computer PDF file as well, and again, I have gone through it a few times. We did use it quite a lot in my summer World War 2 history class where we started with Operation Barbarossa. The Germans committed 3.05 Million men to the invasion of the USSR in 1941, with a total of 3.78 Million men counting the Rumanians, Hungarians, and Finns. The thing about Operation Barbarossa is that the Germans never had to ship significant quantities of materials overseas, as the US and the UK had too.
The original post was:
I do not regard an invasion of a planetary system with an inhabitable planet and a population in at least the millions as a possible operation. Again, that is my opinion. I believe that I am entitled to have opinions that are contrary to what some members of the forum may have, and even what some science fiction authors may have. I have provided sufficient information to show why I have that opinion.
What someone in the forum or in designing a game wishes to do is entirely up to the person or persons involved. If Hanson's Roughriders wishes to have a campaign involving a solar system invasion, he or she is entitled to do that.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think timerover is completely correct and that system invasions in Traveller are a logistical nightmare and are highly implausible as they have been presented.
Or at least the idea that you can launch a successful assault on an high population high TL world
Then you dig beneath the surface of what has been presented in Traveller.
Fleet vs fleet, winner controls the system is the top level of abstraction.
However the only way for the conquering fleet to maintain control is through threat of civilian bombardment.
This is how the Vilani conducted their pacification campaigns, turn up, defeat any opposing fleet then hold the world to ransom with the threat of nuclear sterilisation. It works.
I think this is the type of cold war stand off that Hanson is picturing.
If you invade our systems and sterilise our worlds we will do the same to you. Brutal but effective.
What you really need is a Dr Device from Ender's Game...
Or at least the idea that you can launch a successful assault on an high population high TL world
Then you dig beneath the surface of what has been presented in Traveller.
Fleet vs fleet, winner controls the system is the top level of abstraction.
However the only way for the conquering fleet to maintain control is through threat of civilian bombardment.
This is how the Vilani conducted their pacification campaigns, turn up, defeat any opposing fleet then hold the world to ransom with the threat of nuclear sterilisation. It works.
I think this is the type of cold war stand off that Hanson is picturing.
If you invade our systems and sterilise our worlds we will do the same to you. Brutal but effective.
What you really need is a Dr Device from Ender's Game...
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