system fleet statistics?

[beeber]

greetings sophonts! my first post. . .

IRL, i can find (albeit old) listings of the world's armed forces in my local library--stuff like which country has how many destroyers, frigates, tanks, etc.

i can't recall, however, if there is any such thing for a particular system in traveller. i'm only looking for starship data, e.g. how many sdb's/patrol cruisers/destroyers/etc. say, regina, would have (not ground units).

can anyone recall seeing such an example anywhere? would that be something from TCS, for example?

much thanks on any leads.

 

[parmasson]

Welcome loyal citizen.

I think that GURPS had worked something like that out with a formula but I am not aware of any CT stuff. Mostly I thought it was an In Your Traveller Uuniverse thing.

 

[beeber]

thanks for the greetings!

yeah, i figured it was probably more of an IYTU bit. i'll have to check the few GT books i have for such a thing.

 

[The Oz]

There is a formula for finding the number of SDBs a system should have; it was used to make up the numbers of SDBs for the game "Fifth Frontier War." David Jaques-Watson posted the following table (which he says he put together from reverse-engineering the formula from the data in 5FW) on his Traveller web page.

======================================
SDB Factors
This table indicates the SDB defence factor for a world by comparing the world's tech level with its population. Worlds with TL or Pop of 6 or less do not have SDBs.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL Pop
7 8 9 A
7-8 1 5 50 5C
9-A 1 10 1C 1K
B-C 1 12 120 12C
D-E 1 15 150 15C
F 2 20 2C 2K</pre>[/QUOTE]===================================
David's web site seems to be missing from the Web these days; I can't seem to find a good link to it anymore.

 

[far-trader]

So how do SDB factors translate into tonnage if they do?

 

[beeber]

that table looks familiar. thanks, Oz. i have 5FW, but never played it. i guess i'll have to do the gruntwork myself now to estimate planetary GDP vs. costs of ships, etc. i was hoping to get an idea of the costs/availability of capital ships (10kt displacement+) and that sort of thing. but the sdb stuff is a good place to start.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So how do SDB factors translate into tonnage if they do?

If we look at INVASION:EARTH, we see that 50 SDBs (the number of SDBs in a single SDB Wing counter) have a Bombardment strength about equal to the average Colonial CruRon or BatRon from the same game. Assuming that the Solomani SDBs and the Colonial squadrons are about equal in tech level (which I think is fair, the Colonial ground units average about TL 12, the Solomani ground units average about TL 13), then 50 SDBs should be mounting as many missile launchers (type unknown) as about 6 to 8 colonial cruisers. If we further assume an average tonnage of about 40,000 dtons for the colonial cruisers (which is just a guess) we get about 300,000 dtons for the whole colonial squadron (plus or minus) and dividing that by 50 gives us about 6,000 dtons per SDB.

I'd be willing to give it some slack and say that most SDBs are in the 2000 to 5000 dton range, with a few larger ones (there are some SDB wings with ratings of 0-3-5) and some smaller ones (there are SDB wings rated at 0-2-2 and 0-1-3).

This is all just a guess, of course.

 

[RandyT0001]

I know that in MT's Referee Companion large scale combat system a strength of 1 or 2 was equal to a battalion of troops (1 for inf and 2 for armor/mech). For David's SBD factors each 1 might represent 25-50 craft or there abouts. Higher numbers at lower techs and smaller numbers at higher techs. So a pop 8 TL9 world might have 500 SBD's while the pop 9 TLD world might have 3750 SBD's. Some SBD's are the 400 dton version and some are bigger (10K dton+), spinal armed versions.

Of course YMMV

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by beeber:
i was hoping to get an idea of the costs/availability of capital ships (10kt displacement+) and that sort of thing.

If you look at the named colonial squadrons in FFW, you see which planets could afford to have serious naval squadrons of their own.

Porozolo: Pop A, TL A, 3 squadrons
Extolay: Pop 8, TL A, 1 squadron
Regina: Pop 8, TL A, 2 squadrons
Efate: Pop 9, TL D, 2 squadrons
Jewell: Pop 9, TL C, 2 squadrons
Zivije: Pop 9, TL B, 2 squadrons
Alell: Pop 8, TL A, 1 squadron
Wochiers: Pop 8, TL 9, 1 squadron
Equus: Pop 8, TL B, 1 squadron
Feri: Pop 8, TL B, 1 squadron

They are all Pop 8+ and TL9+.

This seems to indicate that Pop 8 systems can afford one squadron of capital ships, Pop 9 systems two squadrons, and Pop A systems three squadrons. Regina has two squadrons but only Pop 8; I assume that its status as Sector Capital gave it one more squadron.

The TL of the system seems to affect the quality of the ships in one way; the lower-TL systems have squadrons with low jump ratings (even J-1) while Efate has ships with J-4. System TL does not seem to affect combat ratings; all the CruRons and BatRons are at about the same (low) level, no matter the home system TL.

There are two other systems shown on the FFW map that meet these criteria but do not seem to have named squadrons of their own.

Vilis: Pop 9, TL A
Rhylanor: Pop 9, TL F

Rhylanor is the most curious omission; since it is Pop 9 and TL 15 I would expect the system to have two excellent squadrons to supplement its numerous SDBs. Vilis should have two (low-quality) squadrons as well.

As a side note, all the other colonial squadrons that are in FFW are jump-4 but a quick look at the rest of the Spinward Marches shows that it might have been possible for the Imperials to assemble such a large force (14 squadrons). Mora, Glisten, Strouden, Lunion, Palique and Trin could do it.

 

[beeber]

wow, much thanks, all

this is how a library data program *should* work. i'll dig out my FFW stuff &c.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Arent't they by and large the 400 ton garden variety SDBs?

 

[parmasson]

wow, much thanks, all
this is how a library data program *should* work. i'll dig out my FFW stuff &c.

As you will soon discover the combined knowledge about Traveller and real science on this board is astounding. I am always amazed at the quality and quantity of help available to those who ask. The “search” feature is like an encyclopedia index.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Arent't they by and large the 400 ton garden variety SDBs?

If I were trying to determine the actual size and numbers of a given planet's SDB force, I would use that table given above to determine the overall numbers and tonnage of the force, and then divide up that tonnage into hulls as I saw fit, allowing for the TL of the system and any available resources like asteroids.

I think most seriously defended systems would have a fair number of "heavy" SDBs (up to 50 ktons), basically battleriders with heavy armor and spinal mounts (if available). Backing these up would be some medium-sized SDBs (up to 5000 dtons or so) which act as escorts for the big boys and carry missile bays as their main armament. Both these types of SDB might be built into asteroid hulls, if available.

Finally you get lots of the small boys (400 ton and 200 ton SDBs) which do the customs patrol, search and rescue duty, and other sh*t details during peacetime and which act as recon, ground support, and raiders when under siege.

The actual number of SDBs might not come out to equal the number given on the table, but I'd do my best to make it as close as possible.

 

[aramis]

Those 400 Td SDB's really only make sense in a small ship universe.

 

[veltyen]

Maybe.

I see the SDB's as closer to patrol boats, with system monitors being the heavy defence.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Those 400 Td SDB's really only make sense in a small ship universe.

Are you really going to send multikiloton SDBs chasing down every 200ton Free Trader in a system for routine inspections?

Of course taking that philosophy it's easy to see how pirates and smugglers could operate right under the nose of the Imperium

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by veltyen:
Maybe.

I see the SDB's as closer to patrol boats, with system monitors being the heavy defence.

That's how I see it, in a HG-based universe. The big SDBs do the real defense and the little guys we know and love from CT are the jacks-of-all-work who get most of the visibility in peacetime.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Are you really going to send multikiloton SDBs chasing down every 200ton Free Trader in a system for routine inspections?

Of course not.

As I said the little guys (200 and 400 dton SDBs) are for the customs patrol/search and rescue/anti-piracy duties. The =real= SDBs just hang out pretending to be asteroids, until they are really needed.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by The Oz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Are you really going to send multikiloton SDBs chasing down every 200ton Free Trader in a system for routine inspections?

Of course not.

As I said the little guys (200 and 400 dton SDBs) are for the customs patrol/search and rescue/anti-piracy duties. The =real= SDBs just hang out pretending to be asteroids, until they are really needed. </font>[/QUOTE]My bad

I was giving Aramis a poke but the reply came too slow and I didn't quote so it sounded out of context. I think our philosophies in this respect are in concert Oz

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by The Oz:
There is a formula for finding the number of SDBs a system should have; it was used to make up the numbers of SDBs for the game "Fifth Frontier War." David Jaques-Watson posted the following table (which he says he put together from reverse-engineering the formula from the data in 5FW) on his Traveller web page.

======================================
SDB Factors
This table indicates the SDB defence factor for a world by comparing the world's tech level with its population. Worlds with TL or Pop of 6 or less do not have SDBs.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL Pop
7 8 9 A
7-8 1 5 50 5C
9-A 1 10 1C 1K
B-C 1 12 120 12C
D-E 1 15 150 15C
F 2 20 2C 2K</pre>

[/quote]One thing to keep in mind is that this table is outdated. It is from a time when the population multiplier had not yet been introduced to Traveller. As a result, all systems count as effectively having a PM of 1.


Hans