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Swords in space

Originally posted by vegascat:

quote:
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Originally posted by far-trader :
So no I don't think considering special metals to be armor piercing or cutting realistic but it would allow them to retain their point or edge sharpness when striking anything with less hardness.
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A blade or point striking an armor surface of harder material than the edge will have a nasty tendance to fold over barely scratching the finish of the armor, leaving the attacking troop holding a useless hunk of hand filler. AT this time the proper action of the attacking troop will be to either plead mercy, or run away.
Yep that's what I was saying. Hit something harder you lose your edge/point. Hit something softer and while you might not penetrate you will retain the edge/point.

It's not a totally useless hunk of hand filler, it's still a good beat stick ;)

As for the VaccSuit(tm) I think it would be better vs point attack than slash, but pretty good against both. You don't want a mircometeor to make a hole and you don't want it to tear on a sharp edge while doing repairs. I think in all cases (save an angry, well braced, Battle Dress wearing Marine using the servos to shove a high-tech bayonet into you) a melee attack is going to have less force than a gun. And a VaccSuit(tm) has am armor rating for that.
 
Armor tends to be optimised to defeat certain attacks. For example a modern kevlar vest is OK vs bullets, but performs very badly versus blades.

The experiment I've seen involved a light kevlar jacket over a clay body being fired at with a couple of different handguns and arrows. The arrows (especially the broadheads) were considerably more effective then expected, they sliced right though the armor where none of the bullets did.

I suppose this means that if you (as a nation/organisation) don't use blades or lasers your enemies can save on armor, not needing hardshell for the blades or reflec for the lasers.

I beleive blades (especially infinitely hard, infinitely sharp blades (hey, its High Tech (tm))) should be armor piercings for a simple reason. AP bullets tend to be an effort to focus maximum force over minimum cross section on initial impact to breach any defences. With a reuseable blade you can go to the effort to place an extremely sharp edge or point to the weapon which does the same thing. Non-AP bullets tend not to have an edge at all, being much more equivalent of a small fast club then any cutting intrument.
 
Quite, but as I said the power behind a melee weapon is going to be much less than that of gun, or even a bow which is a muscle multiplier. So for me using the strength bonus is enough. Though I suppose for exceptional strength, like from a suit of power armor or a robot or combat drug or something the bonus above the maximum for a human could be used as an AP bonus.

Yeah, I can see rating armors for three (at least) attack types; slashing, penetrating, and burning. And there is likely to be a balance of trade offs, especially when making something light enough to be worn without power assists.
 
In my universe besides dueling & the usual reasons for having swords, I came up with the help of some of my more techno friends a pseudo-techno reason for slashing (cutlass, katanna, glaive, etc.) weapons to be effective against high-tech armour. The hypothesis is as follows: though high tech battledress (powered/unpowered) are resistant to impacts, straight on cuts, energy weapons, projectiles, say they can be vunerable to curved slashing melee weapons that slash against a target with a drawing attack that pulls most of the blade through the initial hit point. In this way the blade actually abrades the armour in a attack the armour is least resistant to. Chainsaws style weapons could also benefit in this manner. Reinforced Aslan dewclaws
might also be included(anyone like me whose been on the receiving of a 25 lbs. + domestic will understand).
 
Hmm, abrading attacks, nice thinking there! I can see it now, the swing and a great spray of sparks as the blade grinds through the armor and leaves a nasty cut under it.

Kudos and a belated welcome aboard Manax Darkhstarr :D
 
High speed hammerdrill bayonets.
 
Blades in the OTU will never go out of style--and here are my two reasons, one of which methinks has been said, iirc:

. You don't have to reload or ever clear a jam with a blade.

. For boarding actions where speed and violence are needed, so is stealth when you suspect you own the smaller side!

. Code duello aside, the vast majority of worlds whose law levels forbid guns/ firearms and allow blades of any kind mens there are more blades than guns about when ye travel about the 'Verse. Answer: More Sword/ blade-jocks than gunman per planet!

. Armor tends to be fairly cheap and easily replaced more so than say a fine blade. you try to afford the best you can, but sttle for what you have that grants the best balance between agility and initiative [encumberance values].
As Armor is mass produced at TL-4+ [beginning industril revolution] onwards, one can see a lower price for it than say, a superior blade.

[EDITED--Okay, four reasons! I blame pneumonia and meds!]

Just My thoughts...
YMMV, as always..this was my .000000125Mcr
 
You are all missing the point, literally and figuratively, of melee weapons...

A melee weapons is
1) a lever.
2) a force concentrator

To do damage to the guy inside the suit, a sword need not cut nor pierce the suit at all. Most swords do not do their damage by "Cutting", but by hydrostatic shock and blunt force. (A typical fighting sword was NOT very sharp; your average butter knife is a better cutting edge.

It does, however, break bones and hydrostatically rupture blood vessels in soft tissue. Cuts are incidental to the crushing effect. THe tip can be going in excess of 100 mph on a good Molinet swing... and imparts the full impulse of the weapon's weight and arm on a contact patch measured in single digit square millimeters.

Now, the thrusting tip would be fairly sharp, and could be pushed through most non-rigid armors to create a leak.

A rigidized foil could be very effective... but to be honest, a foil is not a combat weapon of merit. A rapier, however could be quite lethal.

Oh, and a halberd is the same mass, about 2/3 the velocity, and twice the arm.... and if you hit with the beak, an impact point of about 1 square millimeter.

The actual energy on a fully wound sword swing is comparable to many small caliber firearms.

Higher tech materials which hold an edge better mean a smaller contact patch of the same length, and thus DRASTICALLY higher penetration of energy.
 
Actually, Aramis, a lot of swords were VERY sharp. The ones typically used in Europe (especially once metal armor came into play) were fairly blunt - you couldn't cut your steak with them. Of course, those are more the broadswords/bastard swords/2-handed versions. Sabers, katanas, rapiers (some), and such were sharp - you could use them for some cutting tasks.

"Foil is not a weapon" - agree wholeheartedly, and have always wondered why that word was used, rather than rapier, in CT.
 
The french did have weapon foils (as opposed to training foils) with sharpened points specifically for drawing blood. because they had no edge, they were often legal in towns where blades were forbidden.

Most rapiers (according to the period manuals and modern historians) were not sharpened except for the last 6-12 inches, of blades that could reach 60... (I fence Rapier.) and that was not generally "Knife-sharp", although it was better than butterknife. The sharpening was to (1) ease thrusting (2) allow for cuts of opportunity by slashing faces and/or wrists

Of the swords in the CT rules, Only the foil is a sharp tip. The cutlass historically was not sharpened to a sharp edge in the working edge to prevent cutting lines, although many had a forte sharpening so that intentional line cuts could be made.

Sabres were not typically terribly sharp either. They relied mostly on percussive technique, not edge sharpness. (Again manuals of the period when they were popular.) Often, it was the false edge that was sharp, specifically to allow the horseman to retrieve it.

Schlagers (19th and early 20th century) were another odd dueling blade: No edges and no thrusting tip; tip is blunt, and right angled; corners used to cut faces at weapon reach.

Falchions ranged widely; they were hard to parry, and thus could maintain an edge; many show little effort at honing, but show extensive nice repairs.

Japanese and Chinese blades often were quite sharp, yes. But they relied upon that sharpness, and most of the armors they faces were non-rigid. Before the edge tempering techniques (and blade forging techniques), however, both cultuers used boradswords.

Polynesian and Meso- and South-American swords were wood, with either flint, sharktooth, or obsidian set into a groove. These were very sharp. Fragile, too.

So, yes, a lot of swords were sharp... but very few in the overall picture of the swords used in Traveller materials are of types that would be sharp. The tips, almost certain could be.

But a sharp blade against a hard armor actually loses more energy in the flaking and/or chipping.

as a class, swords are about concentrating force upon a strong and narrow edge.

Certain exceptional types are designed with slashing in mind, and have sharp edges.

Oh, and a recent show on discovery or science chanel (forget which) showed that, yes, indeed, a sharp knife held still is no better at penetrating skin than a dull one... until a draw is made. Certain SCA demos have proven similar.

Now, as to the vacc suit: If I swing a dull broadsword at you, I'm likely to break a bone or two, and cause some muscle damage... and leave you nicely contained. Hopefully you bleed out inside the suit, and thus I've got no mess to clean up when I space you during jump.

Most modern fabrics of the type are in fact cut resistant; you'd need 4-10 pounds of blade-on force, and similar or more in draw/push force, in order to get a cut at all... and if the blade isn't serrated, it's more.

By sharp edge, the reference actually is to one sharp enough to grab hairs and/or shave with.
 
Hmmm . . . I see the chainsaw has not come up yet.

I must admit that in the next 2-3 adventures I have a couple of fuel-cell powered chainsaws ready for action. Perhaps it belongs in the Ship's Locker section but somehow I can't see most ship carrying one . . .yet.

The General Products Clearcutter Super-Deluxe 5, featuring super hard Buckyball teeth, Gyro-stabilization, laser guidance, a red flashing light to warn others of your activity, chrome fixtures, luxury padded leather grips, and a cool racing stripe. A high output belt-strapped fuel cell keeps you cutting. Order yours today! (Cr200 Tl-12)

The idea is for them to try avoid cutting their own heads off while they battle a swarm of Type-2 "fast" zombies on an abandoned space station before the power plant goes. I am saying that running at full tilt it is a 4D weapon for every combat round it is kept on target (-3 to the roll) with two hours of charge in the cell.

Yeah, space zombies, campy but gosh darn it fun!
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Originally posted by Aramis:
Most rapiers (according to the period manuals and modern historians) were not sharpened except for the last 6-12 inches, of blades that could reach 60... (I fence Rapier.) and that was not generally "Knife-sharp", although it was better than butterknife.
Always good to hear from those who have actually used the weapon in question.

Butbut...in T20 a butterknife can take out an anemic Marine in BD! ;) Seriously though I've found Mark Urbin's Swords in Traveller (link), Traveller foil (link), and Battledress (link) articles helpful to me on this and similar subjects.

Schlagers (19th and early 20th century) were another odd dueling blade
Do you have a good link or two for this sword? It sounds interesting and I've read that the German military culture (linked to a part of their nobility) of that time was the last European dueling culture. Was this by any chance the preferred dueling weapon?

Japanese and Chinese blades often were quite sharp, yes. But they relied upon that sharpness, and most of the armors they faces were non-rigid. Before the edge tempering techniques (and blade forging techniques), however, both cultuers used boradswords.
IIRC the Chinese though used a thrusting sword as well as slashing swords (similar to sabres and to falchions) and broadswords were still used I believe. I admit I’m more familiar (though not very) with them using polearms or spears. Do you classify metal brigandine, scale, and lamellar as non-rigid as the Chinese both used and faced metal armors more than the Japanese?

This raises another issue. I've heard that the katana and its siblings have a reputation as being brittle versus most metal armor and in general being prone to breaking. I don’t know enough about swords to know if this has any actual validity. If true at all, is it only this sword in particular or does sharpness (or some other similar factor) in general result in brittleness versus rigid armor? In other words, perhaps a sharp sword, even of high TL manufacture, would tend to just snap going up against combat armor or BD.
 
For more on Schlagers and dueling in Germany as it is practiced today see . . .
J .Christopher Amberger's
The Secret History of the Sword: Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts, 1998 Multi-Media Books
ISBN1892515040
 
As for the brittleness of katanas, from what I know only the edge was what you might call brittle. The "backbone" of the weapon was forged to be more flexible and absorb the shock. From what I understand the armor busting weapons of the 16th century had a more oval/teardrop shape (thicker in the spine) to bust helmets and keep on ticking. A friend ordered the real live article from this vendor.

http://www.bugei.com/

It cost him enough but it sure is a work of art.
 
Good points, all, Aramis. Have you fenced with rapier in SCA? I've never seen a category for that in competitive fencing (I was armorer for the AFA Fencing team for two years in college).

I still say thrusting weapons are preferred in boarding actions. Anything that could cut through combat armor or (especially) BD will definitely cut through all those tender lines/wires/conduits in the ship corridor...
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