Sword World space and weapons technology

[Carlobrand]

The FFW Sword Worlds fleets always bothered me. If I interpret the High Guard rules correctly (and sometimes I've hoped sincerely that I did not), a High Guard TL-11 ship has little or no chance against a well-built TL-15 adversary. The difference in computers skews things horribly in favor of the higher-tech ship, with the higher tech ship enjoying a +4 to hit AND penetrate while the lower tech ship in turn suffers a -4 to hit/penetrate on top of all the other weaknesses of being lower tech (unless I've been misunderstanding that bit all these years). At a very rough approximation, the TL-11 fleet needs something on the order of 20:1 or 30:1 odds just to break even against a TL-15 fleet. That is perhaps as it should be; I don't think the Civil-War-era Merrimac would give much of a fight against an Arleigh Burke class U.S. destroyer.

Yet, the Sword World fleet of six battle squadrons and seven cruiser squadrons totaling 29 attack factors could destroy 3 to 7 Imperial defense factors - about a squadron - while suffering only a 5 to 9 defense factor loss in return, if faced with an equal strength Imperial fleet (assuming squadron quality rules are in use).

As if that isnt enough, the largest ship you can build with a TL-11, Model-5 computer is a 50,000 ton cruiser - or equivalent battlerider/battletender. How do you build a battle squadron around cruiser-sized ships?

Canon implies the Sword Worlds had at least some bite, to be worthy of repeated participation in the Coalition, but High Guard renders them rather toothless. My solution has always been to assume the Sword Worlds depended heavily on purchased Zhodani surplus ships (and Zhodani technicians to maintain them) for the core of their fleet, rather as Egypt drew heavily on Soviet tech and Sov technicians way back when. It's not ideal, but it puts TL-13 battlewagons in Sword World hands, accounts for "Zhodani low" being only one cut below "Zhodani standard", and gives the Sword Worlds at least a fighting chance when confronting TL-15 ships in a High Guard contest.

 

[Starviking]

Perhaps the Sword Worlders build their own ships, but import a lot of the vital tech (computers, sensors, weapons...) from the Zhodani.

 

[Carlobrand]

I can't see any reason import wouldn't be perfectly legal - if someone had the equipment and were willing to export. After all, if I were the Sword Worlds, with my ships having to face either Darrian or Imperial tech, I'd be hunting for the best equipment I could buy. The Imperials and the Darrians may control a lot of my border space, but they don't control all of it.

On the other hand, the only sources of high tech goodies in the Spinward Marches are the Imperials, the Darrians, and the Zhodani. There isn't a free world out there with the kind of tech I'd need, not in this sector. I could probably engineer some sort of bribery-smuggling scam to get a bit of stuff out of the Imperial high-tech worlds, but not enough to equip an entire squadron, much less a fleet. So, it would rather depend on whether the Zhodani were willing to sell me their high tech in usable quantities.

Which is where the Sword Worlds run into a problem. The gripping hand is, if I were a Zhodani wondering what to do with my own antiquated ships, and I had an eager client state with no other potential sellers to go to, I wouldn't be selling them my best computers and spinal mounts straight off the assembly lines. I'd be selling them my cast-offs, ships that are still a couple of levels above anything they can do, and then using that cash to build up my own fleet. The Imperials can't complain too much if I'm selling cast-offs two tech levels below Imperial best, so political consequences are minimal - whereas if I sold my best to the Sword Worlds, the Imperials might consider that I was destabilizing that front and decide to act more aggressively there or elsewhere.

And, if I give the Sword Worlders a real good price for these cast-offs, they'll be content with what they get, I get cash for ships that would otherwise be scrapped, and I make it possible for them to build a larger fleet than they could otherwise ordinarily afford, making them a more effective partner. Win-win for the Zhodani.

All indicators point to the Sword Worlds, at best, making do with Zhodani cast-offs.

 

[rancke]

My take on Sword World military shipbuilding (which I will not claim is supported by the FFW countermix) is that Sacnoth produces TL12 ships; that Gram's space TL is 12, one higher than its High Hommon TL of 11, and so it produces TL12 ships too, for its own navy. Some of the other prominent worlds (Narsil, Tizon, Hofud) may or may not have space TLs in advance of their High Common TLs -- I haven't made up my mind about that. In any case, they will build some ships and they can also buy from Sacnoth.

Buying from the Zhodani seems an obvious thing to do, both obsolescent hand-me-downs and computers. AFAIK no canon design uses computers of higher TL than the ship's basic tech level. I believe this is actually forbidden by all the RAWs. I would totally believe in it, but there would be some obvious problems with maintenance. Any design of mine with an imported computer would have a locally produced back-up.

There are (strangely enough) Vargr TL15 worlds out there. Factor 9 computers might be procurably there, but they would be a lot less reliable (supply and maintenance, not necessesarily production quality) than Zhodani computers, so hybrid Sword World warships would probably stick to factor 8s.

Sale of factor 7-9 computers would IMO definitely be restricted by the Imperium, but how effective such restrictions would be is another question.

Newly manufactured Darrian ship components would be TL13, not TL15 and certainly not TL16.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I've always been more interested in the story than the rules, and the rules are first and foremost about roleplay - what the characters can and can't do, and what they're likely to run into. We all know governments don't conform to any rules they can possibly get around, ends justifying means and all that. The governments at Gram and Joyeuse, eager to strike at Lanth and bring Vilis into the Sword Worlds fold, are not going to miss a chance because of a rule intended to describe the usual behavior of Imperial construction facilities.

I find the idea of Sword World captains and crews having to put up with Zhodani technicians to keep their precious ships running, and Sword World governments having to deal with a tenuous supply line up through Querion sector to keep their wondrous weapons in parts, to make very fertile ground for a number of interesting story lines and game scenarios: Imperial agents secretly paying players to pirate Zhodani merchantmen in the Dekalb system, intrigue as Darrian and Zhodani diplomats and spies compete to influence the Thanber government, sharing drinks with a disgruntled Sword Worlds engineering officer on Hrunting as you use his irritation with haughty Zhodani "technical advisers" to carefully pry information from him, players hired to infiltrate and clandestinely agitate among Gram shipyard workers to promote marches and strikes against the purchase of foreign-built ships.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Is the horse dead yet?

 

[Peter Newman]

The Sword Worlders are rather independent-minded. They can't be any happier to become pawns of the Zhodani than to be oppressed by the Imperium. If the Zhodani gave them some nifty TL14 stuff they might go for it, but TL11 and 12 stuff they can build themselves.
Hans

Or - They choose not to get any nifty TL 14 items they can't build for themselves to avoid a dependency trap. However they gleefully accept all the TL 11 and 12 stuff they can get because 'Free' is cheaper than building it themselves and this way they'll have all the stuff they build AND all the stuff they are given. Maybe when the second line Zhodani fleets get the TL 13 ships from the 1st line Zhodani that have upgraded to TL 14 some of their old TL 12 ships go to the Swordies?

 

[Carlobrand]

Zombie horse!!!!

I really see the Sword Worlders as being in the same circumstances as the Egyptians, Syrians, Indians, and so forth and so forth in the 1950's - which is to say, they didn't have it, someone who had it was willing to sell it to them, and it was better to get power now when you needed it than to lose wars because you were worrying about such long-term concerns as dependency - especially when making the purchase gives you a close look at the item and might help you bring your own industry up to speed so you aren't dependent anymore.