Sword World space and weapons technology
- Thread starter rancke
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10-11 which seems to be the standard... makes you wonder if there was standardization in the confederation army. Or conjecture would be they bought there weapons from the same distributors (Gram/Narsil).... the issue I see is Sacnoth is tl 12 but has a class B star port, figure that one out.
None of the counters in the PDF indicate TL12 ground units...
Unit list:
10-11, 4x 1C-10, 2x 1C-11, 1x 10-10, 1x 50-11... 4 TL 11 units, totaling 260 Bn; 5 TL 10 units totaling 410 Bn.
So, unless it's missing a sheet, there are no TL-12 ground forces.
The ships don't list TL's at all; they can only be inferred.
Yes, the spinward campaign explains it. The SW had 3 or 4 fleets, one watching the Darrians, one facing off vs Lunion subsector and the two in the FFW game. The two fleets in the FFW gane are mainly from Gram, Joyueuse and the worlds at the top of the SW confederation so TL10 & 11.
Scanoth forces at TL12 were part of the fleet facing Lunion (that got stamped on later in the war when the 3I formed the Border Worlds). Basically TL12 stuff is in a fleet not used in the FFW game.
Scanoth forces at TL12 were part of the fleet facing Lunion (that got stamped on later in the war when the 3I formed the Border Worlds). Basically TL12 stuff is in a fleet not used in the FFW game.
True. Jump-3 ships have to be TL12, though. Jump-2 ships are probably TL11, since they would probably be jump-3 if they were TL12. Not completely certain, but a pretty good assumption, I think. Jump-1 ships are, again, probably TL9 or 10, since they'd probably be Jump-2 if they were TL11.
One might get away with claiming that Sacnoth would stick to Jump-3 even if its space TL was 13, but it's rather unlikely that it is.
Hans
Sacnoth and J-3 ships
The Issue with J-3 (TL 12) Ships
-from CT Book 3 & CT Book 6
Class B (starport) Good quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.
Maybe they are Zhodani Purchase. I have found a few inconsistencies In the Sword Worlds Canon... hence why in my IMTU I am weaving my own historical back drop to the SWs.
In FFW there are 2 Batrons, 4 Crusrons and a Tankerron that are J3.
I have done the full SW Confederation work up using the battalion factors matrix JTAS #11 "Troops in the Fifth Frontier War" p24-26 by M.Miller.
Not to usurp the OP but I posted my own thoughts on my blog http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Blogs/viewblog.php?userid=13264&entry=212
The Issue with J-3 (TL 12) Ships
-from CT Book 3 & CT Book 6
Class B (starport) Good quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.
Maybe they are Zhodani Purchase. I have found a few inconsistencies In the Sword Worlds Canon... hence why in my IMTU I am weaving my own historical back drop to the SWs.
In FFW there are 2 Batrons, 4 Crusrons and a Tankerron that are J3.
I have done the full SW Confederation work up using the battalion factors matrix JTAS #11 "Troops in the Fifth Frontier War" p24-26 by M.Miller.
Not to usurp the OP but I posted my own thoughts on my blog http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Blogs/viewblog.php?userid=13264&entry=212
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Starport class indicate civilian shipbuilding capacity.
"A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present." [HG2:20] (Emphasis mine)
Hans
But Hans I would like to point out FFW was published during Classic Traveller... therefore you apply "High Guard 2" (are we talking the "1980" revision of High Guard?) to it.
Vaughan
Book 5- Highguard STARSHIP DESIGN
Starships are designed by navies using their own specifications to produce the exact type of ship desired; contracts are then let, and construction begins.
Design: A navy can issue a specification for a naval vessel within approximately eight weeks of authorization to procure. Corporations and individuals must obtain the services of a naval architect (who charges 1% of the final ship cost); the architect can prepare final plans and specifications (from which the shipyard works) in about four weeks.
Availability: Starships (with jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A starport; non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A or class B starport.
Technological Level: Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and maintain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level.
The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14. A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within it s borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present. (this is where you and I disgaree... the above clearly states the availability that a class A starport is needed for "starships", but here notice it says "ships", not "starships!")
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No, I use FFW as one source of information, almost certainly incomplete, quite possibly flawed or superceded, but possibly not. In other words, just one bit of evidence among many. If I can make it fit with a coherent, self-consistent picture of the Traveller setting, then that is great. If I can't, too bad. My attitude to canon is this: 1) If it works, don't change it; 2) if it doesn't work, DO change it."
Hans
The Sword Worlders are rather independent-minded. They can't be any happier to become pawns of the Zhodani than to be oppressed by the Imperium. If the Zhodani gave them some nifty TL14 stuff they might go for it, but TL11 and 12 stuff they can build themselves.
Hans
There are plenty of real world examples of nations taking weapons from another but not being a pawn. However, that being said, the Sword Worlders are allies of the Zhodani and the military advantage of the higher TL weapons, is an important if not crucial point, especially for offensive operations. The lower TL stuff they would make themselves, but I can see the Zhodani very interested in having someone else do the fighting for them and the Zho's probably have little interest in absorbing the Sword Worlders.
So if one wanted to be totally realistic, a small corps of SW forces should be armed with Zho weapons.
So if one wanted to be totally realistic, a small corps of SW forces should be armed with Zho weapons.
I never said they were pawns.... but certainly there is a client relationship politically as a deterrent to the 3rd Imperium. As far as technology transfer or the out right purchase of ships it remains a viable excuse for the TL12+ J3 ships in the OOB in FFW.
Citing real world examples Hans... the Israeli's purchased (gifted) submarines from Germany... the 3 SAAR 5 missile corvette's from US (built in Mississippi).... India bought the old HMS Hermes after the Falklands. There are examples of commissioning shipbuilding and the off the self acquisition.
Anyway Hans.. I hope you understand I am respectfully disagreeing ... and I acknowledge your work on the GURPS SW supplement.
Vaughan
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And yet, none of the Sword World units featured in the FFW are TL 14 or even 13. So no evidence of tech transfers from the Zhodani there.
Everything the Sword Worlders have in FFW they could have made themselves.
Maybe some black ops stuff. Perhaps some small commando units[*]. But not the army units we see in FFW.
[*] Come to think of it, somewhere I have a half-finished Casual Encounter of a Sword World war hero who led a company of battledress troopers. I might furnish his troops with Zhodani equipment.
There may be a de facto client relationship, but I'm quite sure the prickly Sword Worlders would be unwilling to acknowledge any such thing and adverse to anything that could give such an impression.
Yes, but there's no need for one. Sacnoth had the ability to build them itself. (And although I'm quite sure the original authors didn't intend it to be the case, I've always thought that Gram must have a space TL of 12 itself. Otherwise it would not have been able to corner the market on civilian shipbuilding in the Sword Worlds and Sacnoth would have had a Class A starport too. But that's just my opinion).
Hey, feel free. If it didn't get into Sword Worlds, it's just my opinion, not canon.
Hans
A quick look at the FFW game doesn't really infer anything except by jump number, and the two fleets are Joyeuse and Gram TL A and B respectively. Jump is restricted to the slowest ships in the fleet, so it doesn't say there can not be Zhodani ships there, just that they had lower tech ships as well, probably of their own manufacture.
Of the other published material, it's a hard call, but stuff could be sifted out to some degree.
"De facto" come on Hans they were part of the Outworld Coalition how many times... they pretty much threw their lot with the Zho's for over a few hundred years. Further I would like to say we agree to disagree about Sacnoth shipyards... in the case of FFW. But I do agree with you about the Sacnoth should have class A shipyards as a high tech industrial world.
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Two or three times. The 1FW they got involved in when the Darrians, with whom they were at war at the time, allied with the Imperium. 2FW they were in up to their eyebrows. 3FW they kept out of. Given that the 4FW was unplanned, the Sword Worlds may or may not have been formally involved; they certainly grabbed the opportunity to capture the Entropic Worlds, but maybe they just took advantage of the Imperium being otherwise engaged. 5FW, of course, they were in up to their eyebrows again.
I'm convinced they are much too proud to see it that way themselves. Allying as an equal partner, sure, but never as a mere client. That wouldn't be honorable.
To me there is no separate case of FFW. It all takes place in the same universe.
Evidently they can't compete with Gram in the civilian market. Which is why I believe that Gram must be able to build TL12 ships, as otherwise Sacnoth would have a niche of the market that Gram couldn't touch.
Hans
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