Proneutron
SOC-13
Perhaps but but not perfect fit. But, that doesn't falsify my comment that it can be argued as I said. Only asking Marc his INTENT can do that...
Switching the maneuver drive for the jump drive
- Thread starter Werner
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Perhaps but but not perfect fit. But, that doesn't falsify my comment that it can be argued as I said. Only asking Marc his INTENT can do that...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nope, because the original intent was to be able to model any sci fi book or setting MWM has stated this many times and it even says so in LBB3.using space ships having a jump drive to get into jump space to travell to others star systems. That can be logically argued as well.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Marc has stated his intent many times, even in the original final word in LBB3. Let me quote it for you:
No mention of slavish dedication to the jump drive.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The OTU is itself not a perfect fit for the rules as written...
Proneutron
SOC-13
:toast:
From LBB 0, p. 34-5
" -- The speed of communication should never be allowed to exceed the speed of travel. This is a basic tenet of Traveller, and its violation will irrevocably alter the balance of the rules."
" -- Do not expect other Traveller materials to match your universe if you engage in large-scale modifications."
" Adaptations to the jump and maneuver drive systems and to our concept of jump space should be made only with care and consideration. The effects of modifications to these areas are wide-reaching and touch almost every rule in one form or another."
The funny bit about that last quote is that GDW did exactly this with LBB5 and LBB2 '81, and didn't change any of their other rules or setting materials to accommodate those changes. (Hi, Mike!
)
" -- The speed of communication should never be allowed to exceed the speed of travel. This is a basic tenet of Traveller, and its violation will irrevocably alter the balance of the rules."
" -- Do not expect other Traveller materials to match your universe if you engage in large-scale modifications."
" Adaptations to the jump and maneuver drive systems and to our concept of jump space should be made only with care and consideration. The effects of modifications to these areas are wide-reaching and touch almost every rule in one form or another."
The funny bit about that last quote is that GDW did exactly this with LBB5 and LBB2 '81, and didn't change any of their other rules or setting materials to accommodate those changes. (Hi, Mike!
)
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Proneutron
SOC-13
The funny bit about that last quote is that GDW did exactly this with LBB5 and LBB2 '81, and didn't change any of their other rules or setting materials to accommodate those changes. (Hi, Mike!
5 & 2 of '81 made comm speed exceed travel speed?
No, they changed the maneuver drives, jump drives, and power plant requirements.
I did say I was referring to the third quote.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Missed that. Sorry
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
That's why I said "
"I am implying that modifying jump too much makes the game not very Travelleresque. It's supposed to be more like age of sail. Week-long jump plus to and fro, with no FTL comms, is like ocean travel without radio. I think that's essential to the feel of Traveller. And shotguns, as Whartung said. Your mod strips much of the comm lag.
Traveller is much more closely tied to setting than D&D. AD&D is mostly from the Greyhawk setting, but hardly anybody even knew the name of the setting. Dragonlance is a different setting, and many D&Ders were uninterested. I change about 90% of D&D, and I would call it "un-D&D." I change enough of Traveller to call it "Un-Traveller."
Not really. I left out Star Frontiers because I don't think I know that one. Expanse would be a maybe, but since there is no jump drive it wouldn't be solidly Travelleresque. Star Trek is definitely out. The drive tech is largely incompatible, the ship designs, the weapons, subspace comms... by the time you're done all you've got left is 2d6 character attributes. Niven is more like Trav. No FTL comms (unless my memory is crap) and I'd say the Aslan are essentially copies of Kzinti. I don't think the feel of Niven is quite Trav, but it could work. Foundation... feels wrong for Trav. Not really a favorite read, for me, and I wouldn't be interested in playing.Werner said:
Known Space had Hyperwave, which was effectively instantaneous interstellar transmission, but the signal is blocked by gravity wells (in the Sol system, the cut-off was a little beyond the orbit of Pluto - about 5+ light-hours). So a transmission from within a gravity well was made by normal radio to a hyperwave relay station at the hyperwave cut-off boundary, which then encoded the transmission for (effectively) instantaneous hyperwave transmission, which would then be picked up by relay stations at the hyperwave cut-off boundaries in the destination system, which would then re-transmit the message via a radio signal to the final destination.
So not real-time (ansible) communication, but about ~10 times as fast as Traveller OTU communication.
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Consider. "The is my favorite axe, I've replaced the handle 3 times and the head twice.".
Arguably, the only consistent thread laced through out the mainstream of all of the Traveller iterations is the Jump Drive.
Fundamental mechanics change, character generation has changed, combat has changed, gear has changed, vehicle design has changed, star system design has changed, trade has changed.
Outside of tweaks for jump fuel, the Jump Drive and its impact on galactic civilization has anchored all of these.
If you showed up at a convention for a "Traveller" game and ended up with mail armor, and swords, and horses, and trying to defeat a "wizard" in a tower, is that the game you were thinking you were going to play?
What made it Traveller? 7+ on 2D6? The never used Social Standing attribute? Discovering that the wizard was really a powerful telekinetic Psion?
But of course, being a TL 2 footman, that wouldn't make any sense to you anyway - it's just Magic(tm). "Build a bridge out of 'im!" So, to learn it was a psion would be out of band discussion with the Ref.
Traveller is the whole, not the individual parts. I have no problem being on a TL 2 world as long as I got there on a TL 12 starship.
Well your character could advance in tech level instead of character level, this would be like playing a 1st level character that never advances to higher level but accumulates more and more magic items that make him more powerful, isn't that what Traveller is all about?
Here's an odd thought: Traveller's SOC stat as defined might not make sense in a universe with instantaneous interstellar communication.
The stat makes a system of interstellar nobility explicit. The in-universe justification for that sort of society is that individual worlds are largely autonomous because there's a minimum two-week OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop imposed by the nature of Jump and the lack of instant communcations, and the hereditary nature is because over multi-month travel/communication distances you need long-lasting continuity.
Instant communications or very rapid travel mean autonomy isn't needed, and social mobility and rapid political changes can be addressed in near real time from a multi-world polity's capital.
This is just an example of how everything in the rules is tied together.
The stat makes a system of interstellar nobility explicit. The in-universe justification for that sort of society is that individual worlds are largely autonomous because there's a minimum two-week OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop imposed by the nature of Jump and the lack of instant communcations, and the hereditary nature is because over multi-month travel/communication distances you need long-lasting continuity.
Instant communications or very rapid travel mean autonomy isn't needed, and social mobility and rapid political changes can be addressed in near real time from a multi-world polity's capital.
This is just an example of how everything in the rules is tied together.
Star Wars: Yes, was very unsatisfying.
Star Frontiers: Kind of... back when I wanted to, I was really into simulationism, and CT wasn't detailed enough to to the job I wanted; by the time Mega gave me the rules, I no longer wanted to do the Frontier in Traveller.
Star Trek - done with CT Bk5 plus AM drives backported from MT. APAWs as phasers. Was VERY unsatisfying, especially since FASA-Trek had better ship combat, and players weren't unsatisfied by random positions in the crew.
Ringworld/Known Space: either you make monomolecular shells low TL, and ships are immune to hull damage, but can be stripped of sensors and drive controls, or you run the TL way up and no longer have the right weapons...
The CoDo-verse, however... (Niven & Pournelle) Yes. Just reskin the rules for Black Globes, and take away the invisibility.
Foundation is baked into Traveller's blood. I was shocked how much of the Foundation Radioplay was represented in CT... and, for that matter, MT.
Fundamentally, the question shouldn't be «Can one do ___ in Traveller?» but «Is Traveller a good fit for ___, or is something else better?»
And also, for a homebrew conversion, «Is it worth my time to alter something when there's an already altered game out there?»
I have done a few crossovers that weren't horrible. My Tron based adventure was a mixed success. My port of the OTU into 2300 was actually a lot of fun. My use of the Twilight 2000 2.0 engine (given the Survival Margin conversion) was far more fun for me and my players than T:TNE... (which was 2.2 based.)
I did a GURPS traveller game based upon the fan version on SJG's internet BBS... right after GT was announced, and before Loren's version was printed. And ran into the issue that Zhodani Teleport Troops are over 1000 points... or are much shorter ranged than the CT, MT, or TNE versions.
Different assumptions. Incompatible assumptions...
T20 was actually a lot of fun... but I still preferred MT to it.
I loved Mongoose Playtest draft 3.2... best rules I've run for ship combat and ship operations yet. Too bad Thrash convinced them to drop the rolling rather than fix it. Fix wasn't even hard.
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The main differences with Foundation are:
1) No aliens, some alien life but no intelligent aliens to rival humans.
2) FTL radio
3) A much better hyperdrive, a Galactic Empire would be impossible in the OTU.
4) No humanoid robots (actual robots are hidden) lots of non-humanoid robots.
I suppose maps would be like those of Star Wars, you have a map of the galaxy with key locations in it. Inhabited planets are terraformed.
1) No aliens, some alien life but no intelligent aliens to rival humans.
2) FTL radio
3) A much better hyperdrive, a Galactic Empire would be impossible in the OTU.
4) No humanoid robots (actual robots are hidden) lots of non-humanoid robots.
I suppose maps would be like those of Star Wars, you have a map of the galaxy with key locations in it. Inhabited planets are terraformed.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Ya, and the US Pacific Fleet was impregnable at Pearl, no way could the IJN do serious damage.
Apply the missile supplement and then figure out how fast ships are going at their midpoint. It ain't pretty.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
And I'm saying I don't give a damn about you guys frac-C calcs, it gets dicey for the slower 1-G crowd to dodge rock swarms at way lower speeds.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Apples and rocks. We are talking about the average of ALL systems. Not a specific system with highly usual characteristics. Get it?
