Supplement Four
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I've never really gotten a sense that the feudal system in place in the Imperium is that strong--more like what we see in Star Wars rather than Dune.
Thoughts? Hans?
Thoughts? Hans?
OTU Only: Strong Nobility?
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GypsyComet
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I see a mixture of the two. Each world or group of worlds has its representation in the Moot, which is more broad based than the Landsraad but not quite the free-for-all of the Senate. Each Noble of the Moot has to decide how to split his or her time between keeping an eye on the territory they are responsible for and representing that territory at the Moot.
(Note that the Moot thins out a bit in T5 relative to earlier coverage, as it goes from a Baron on every world (in GT) to considerably less than that in T5.)
(Note that the Moot thins out a bit in T5 relative to earlier coverage, as it goes from a Baron on every world (in GT) to considerably less than that in T5.)
Remember also that in pre-T5 nobility not every Peer is a High Noble with a territory to administer. Honor Nobles of Baronial Rank (and above) also have Moot votes. This is actually an incentive for the Emperor to appoint some trusted individuals as "Honor-Peers" who are in continual attendance in order for the Emperor to have a presence in the Moot's deliberations.
mike wightman
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Since it takes a couple of years to get to the Moot and back all of that is moot. What happens in the outer sectors stays in the outer sectors.
Subsector dukes vie for position and power, sponsoring corsairs to disrupt neighbouring duchies. Meanwhile megacorps play one duke off against another to further their own aims. Not to mention engaging in trade war against rival megacorps and using every means to gain an economic advantage on worlds with resources to exploit.
Subsector dukes vie for position and power, sponsoring corsairs to disrupt neighbouring duchies. Meanwhile megacorps play one duke off against another to further their own aims. Not to mention engaging in trade war against rival megacorps and using every means to gain an economic advantage on worlds with resources to exploit.
GypsyComet
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So you've read the Mongoose book on Deneb?
All that is quite different from my take on the Imperium. In principle the Imperium isn't involved with the running of member worlds at all and their high nobles are (supposed to be) representing Imperial interests vis-á-vis their worlds, not the other way around. Human beings being what they are, some world rulers have managed to elbow their way into the Imperial nobility, but that's not the way Imperium prefers it at all, so it will constantly be trying to limit the influence of member worlds and any Imperial noble whose allegiance might be more towards his world than towards the Imperium.
When Imperial dukes cross the line, the Emperor is supposed to step in and curb their excesses. Whether he does or not depends on how successful the dukes are in keeping their nefarious activities secret.
Hans
When Imperial dukes cross the line, the Emperor is supposed to step in and curb their excesses. Whether he does or not depends on how successful the dukes are in keeping their nefarious activities secret.
Hans
Vladika
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How very Medieval. :devil:
Vladika
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Really? I've always thought of the Imperial nobility as more akin to that of 18th or 19th Century Britain than to the Medieval period. With high nobles being a blend of hereditary governors and ombudsmen and the rest of the nobility a "labor pool" from which the Imperial bureaucracy was mainly recruited.
Hans
Vladika
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I was looking at the Ducal infighting, subterfuge, sabotage and "maybe" the Emperor will get involved.
Oh, I don't think there's nearly as much of that as Mike appears to think. But the Imperium is not a carbon copy of the 19th Century British Empire. There are command-and-control issues that make the Emperor weaker vis-á-vis the duchies than the British government was vis-á-vis its provinces. So while there are some similar factors at play, there are also some very different factors at play.
Incidentally, I seem to vaguely recall that historically there were some instances of provincial governors getting into fights with neighboring provinces. Or am I thinking of American territories?
Hans
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Hans, I imagine you must see the nobility stronger than you think, since you contemplate subsector dukes possessing a personal navy answerable to themselves.
No more personal than what provincial governors of European empires had and what US state governors have today.
Hans
Baron
SOC-12
I envision my nobility as quite strong. They have power and the respect that brings. Because of the communication lags, they are often making decisions and acting independently, but they have the full backing of the whole system.
Unless their superiors disagree with some decision they've made. In which case there will be consequences!
Unless their superiors disagree with some decision they've made. In which case there will be consequences!
Mmyes, but I always come back to one of the few canonical statements we have about the power of the Imperial nobility: That they have no special status under the law. I'm sure that nobles are just as able as any member of a society elite to bend and twist the law in their own favor, but formally, at least, they're no better off than any commoner when it comes to the law. That seems to me to indicate a significant amount of restraint.
One of the earliest amber zones, Rescue on Ruie, features the son and heir of an Imperial baron who has been sentenced to penal servitude under the laws of a client state (or was Nebelthorn a member nation? I forget) and apparently there's nothing that baron can do through official channels. He has to hire a bunch of scruffy adventurers to break the son out of prison.
Hans
Drakon
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It is possible that our disagreement is in what the job entails, being a member of the government of an Imperial world.
My first captain once said that being an officer was like any other rating in the Navy. Electricians took care of the wiring, Machinist mates took care of the machines, officers had the job of being in charge and responsible. To coordinate the activities of the crew, and the resources of the ship, to complete the mission. By the time the crew hit the fleet, they should know how to do their individual jobs, and what is expected of them. Officers are there to see that everyone does the right job at the right time.
Nobles are still subject to Imperial law. So that puts a bit of a crimp on oppressing the masses. Also, depending on the culture of the population, getting too tyranical can get oneself ousted, ignored, ridiculed or simply killed, along with their entire families. Atlas can shrug and there is such a thing as an "Irish Veto", whereby unpopular laws are simply ignored.
I also think that Imperial Law is pretty laxs in most areas. That it covers the big things, like murder, theft, fraud, nuclear weapons, but does not directly address the myriad small issues that get blown up into reasons for civil strife. That the job of the government is to protect and defend and to let people live their lives as they see fit.
Part of me likes to think that by the 56th century AD, political science has developed sufficiently to avoid the desire for oppressive regimes, or at least a better understanding of their causes and means to avoid. Not so much a change in human nature, but more an understanding of the futility and waste that oppressive regimes represent. That the addition of 35 more centuries of history has taught us a couple things. At the very least, which failing art majors would try to make a go of politics, if nothing else.
Also, I think that the smaller the population of the world, the bigger deal the local Imperial representative is. The knight of Weyland or Slath (pop 300 each) is a lot bigger deal, locally, than the knight of Tsamis (pop 5 billion).
So in the end, its a fancy title, with allusions to an autocratic past that, by the time of the 3rd Imperium, restricted by reality, history, and Imperial law to that of an ombudsman, administrator, and troublershooter, for the Imperium, as well as the populations he has been made responsible for.
I also think that each and every one of the 11,000 worlds is unique and different. That what may work for Lemish, at this point in history, might be terrible for Sutton, Depot, or Courage.
Baron
SOC-12
So, no one is above the law. Canonically. I don't see that as unworkable with my vision of the nobility.
OTOH, perhaps being subject only to Imperial Law, and not subject to planetary law etc, depends on level of nobility?
Honestly, it's whatever I decide for purposes of story. Hoover was above the law, and he didn't have a patent of nobility.
Drakon
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Trying to imagine the governor of New Mexico ordering the National Guard to invade Arizona. Which is your point, isn't it?
Baron
SOC-12
Haven't we had governors defy the feds, though?
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