• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Strephon's assassination

Procopius

SOC-9
Was there ever a first-hand account of what transpired when Dulinor killed the rent-a-clone of Strephon and how the plot was organized, or was it all second-hand? The JTAS entries for GURPS Traveller seem to suggest that the Ilieshi honour guard were involved somehow (in that in the GT universe a number of them resign). It strikes me the plot would have had to be fairly elaborate -- and thus risky -- since Dulinor needs to

a) Kill the Emperor, Empress, and Grand Princess. And, if I got this right, the Aslan ambassador?
b) Cause enough confusion for Lucan to have a shot at murdering his own brother. (Unintended, admittedly, but...)
(c) Escape the palace.
(d) Escape Core/Capitol.

I'm not suggesting any of this is impossible, but I am curious if GDW or others went into the mechanics of the plot and how many plotters there were.
 
IIRC, the Aslan Ambassador was an accident, and the whole situation would have caused enough chaos for the Lucan/Varian thing I expect.

In my own "envisionings" of the situation, I tend to imagine lots and lots of "automatic security systems" that kick into play, which Lucan had managed to hack/infiltrate and thus allow his escape from both the Imperial Palace and Core.

IMTU when I've run with the idea of the Assassination, I have a pretty AI-heavy setting and given the gray legality of the Right of Assassination this throws the very AI-heavy security systems into flux which also provides some cover because they aren't nearly as effective as they normally would be.

D.
 
Was there ever a first-hand account of what transpired when Dulinor killed the rent-a-clone of Strephon and how the plot was organized, or was it all second-hand? The JTAS entries for GURPS Traveller seem to suggest that the Ilieshi honour guard were involved somehow (in that in the GT universe a number of them resign).
Yes, there's a detailed description of how the assassination was planned and how it went off, where it worked as planned and where it went off the rails. IIRC it was in the basic MT books. I forget which of the three it was; presumably the Referee's Companion.

It strikes me the plot would have had to be fairly elaborate -- and thus risky -- since Dulinor needs to

a) Kill the Emperor, Empress, and Grand Princess. And, if I got this right, the Aslan ambassador?
b) Cause enough confusion for Lucan to have a shot at murdering his own brother. (Unintended, admittedly, but...)
(c) Escape the palace.
(d) Escape Core/Capitol.
The killing of The Emperor, Empress, and Grand Princess was part of the plan. A secondary assassin was supposed to kill both Varian and Lucan, but he bungled it. The plan was to remain on Capital, but the plan to secure the palace went awry, so Dulinor switched to Plan B and evacuated. Which is where he lost his bid for the Throne.

I'm not suggesting any of this is impossible, but I am curious if GDW or others went into the mechanics of the plot and how many plotters there were.
There was a broad outline, but the details were skimpy.


Hans
 
And, if I got this right, the Aslan ambassador?


As the others have explained, the Yerlyaruiwo ambassador was "collateral damage". He stepped between Dulinor and Ciencia, thus shielding the Grand Princess with his body, while Dulinor was shooting Strephon and Iolanthe. Dulinor then had to shoot the ambassador in order to get a clear shot at Ciencia. Scratch one Toon.

One important thing to keep in mind about the assassination is that an important change was made to the story a few years after the story was first created. When MT was first being put together, Strephon was killed in the throne room so all the canonical accounts written in that period have that fact in mind. Later GDW engaged in a little fan service and had one of Strephon's doubles killed in the throne room instead. After that retcon, canonical accounts, fan materials, and general speculation all have the retcon in mind.

Because different facts applied at different times, the materials covering about the assassination may have subtle differences depending on when they were created.

The retcon can get confusing. I find it helps to think of Actual Strephon and Imposter Strephon switching places. Initially, Actual Strephon got killed and Imposter Strephon led the "Real Strephon" faction. After the retcon, Imposter Strephon got killed and Actual Strephon led the "Real Strephon" faction.
 
The thing about a retcon is that it involves pretending that things have been that way all along. So there's no switch; any pre-retcon material that doesn't fit with the New Truth is wrong -- Just Plain Wrong.

That said, I don't recall any of the pre-retcon material about Strephon's death that doesn't fit with the post-retcon truth. The folks at GDW may have known that the Real Strephon was a fake, but none of the users of their products ever knew that for sure. So when it turned out that he wasn't a fake after all, it wasn't really a retcon in the true meaning of the word any more than the Aslans having originally copied the jump drive was a retcon.


Hans
 
If it's in one of the three core MT books, so much the better, as I (rather belatedly) bought the boxed set off ebay this week!

As the others have explained, the Yerlyaruiwo ambassador was "collateral damage". He stepped between Dulinor and Ciencia, thus shielding the Grand Princess with his body, while Dulinor was shooting Strephon and Iolanthe. Dulinor then had to shoot the ambassador in order to get a clear shot at Ciencia. Scratch one Toon.

I guess the whole "shielding others with your body" thing only works if the shooter's not in a position to take follow-up shots.

One important thing to keep in mind about the assassination is that an important change was made to the story a few years after the story was first created. When MT was first being put together, Strephon was killed in the throne room so all the canonical accounts written in that period have that fact in mind. Later GDW engaged in a little fan service and had one of Strephon's doubles killed in the throne room instead. After that retcon, canonical accounts, fan materials, and general speculation all have the retcon in mind.

Right, I knew that there was some uncertainty about whether live Strephon was also real Strephon -- I have a faint memory of, pre-GURPS Traveller, reading some archived JTAS reports about the Civil War online...this must have been shortly after Imperium Games went under or thereabouts, when I found the barrier to entry for Traveller's backstory prohibitively high, and thinking it was transparently obvious that this guy wasn't the real emperor, just an imposter. I hadn't known that this affected the details of the assassination, however.

Side question about the double -- did the doubles, who I understand were clones of Strephon (and going off Survival Margin, there was more than one), did they know they weren't Strephon? Obviously psi is probably pretty rare in the 3I, but what about meeting a Zhodani ambassador? Or would the throne or that dumb little tiara Strephon wears have a psi-shield in it?
 
Right, I knew that there was some uncertainty about whether live Strephon was also real Strephon...


I remember thinking "GDW sure knows their stuff. A couple Perkin Warbecks will really shake things up!" when I first read about the "Real Strephon" faction. Much later I read a comment by Loren Wisemen or other such luminary saying that he and the others at GDW were surprised that so many people actually thought the Real Strephon was the real Strephon!

...when I found the barrier to entry for Traveller's backstory prohibitively high, and thinking it was transparently obvious that this guy wasn't the real emperor, just an imposter. I hadn't known that this affected the details of the assassination, however.

The backstory doesn't mean squat when it comes to playing the RPG. Posters here talk all the time about the difference between playing Traveller and playing with Traveller. The backstory means nothing the former and everything to the latter.

Side question about the double -- did the doubles, who I understand were clones of Strephon (and going off Survival Margin, there was more than one), did they know they weren't Strephon?

That's a huge can of worms which GDW's retcon created. There are some really nasty implications which arise from the whole "Emperors need doubles and/or clones" idea. For instance, what happens to those doubles/clones when the Emperor dies?

Again, while it's fun to think over, it has little or nothing to do with playing the RPG.

Obviously psi is probably pretty rare in the 3I...

That's yet another can of worms!
 
Last edited:
The backstory doesn't mean squat when it comes to playing the RPG. Posters here talk all the time about the difference between playing Traveller and playing with Traveller. The backstory means nothing the former and everything to the latter.

I appreciate that now, but in the mid-to-late 1990s, this was not immediately apparent to me. The nearest game store to me had the TNE corebook, a rather weathered-looking Megatraveller Referee's book, and I had seen ads for something called Traveller Milieu 0. (Speaking only for myself, I don't see myself using any of the non-GURPS Traveller rules system for anything but a game using the Traveller backstory, but I suspect that's merely one of my many limitations as a man and a representative of the human race.) I was pretty confused as to what I even needed to buy to get into the game!

For instance, what happens to those doubles/clones when the Emperor dies?

I guess that, uh, they're heavily incentivized to make sure the emperor lives for as long as humanly possible.

Again, while it's fun to think over, it has little or nothing to do with playing the RPG.

Kind of surprising that it hasn't featured in a published adventure yet. Just imagine the brouhaha if some TNE-era players found one of the spare Strephons chilling (so to speak) in a low berth somewhere.
 
I guess that, uh, they're heavily incentivized to make sure the emperor lives for as long as humanly possible.

And when they still outlive the emperor they've spent their lives imitating?

Doubles, even surgically altered ones, could possibly be given another face and pensioned off some place. Watched most certainly, because they'll know things, but they've still a chance of enjoying a "retirement".

With clones the questions and answers get far more troubling. When are the clones created? At any potential emperor's birth? Can they be "force grown", that is produced once an emperor becomes and emperor? How about when physical changes happen to the real emperor? If the real emperor breaks a leg, does the clone (or clones!) get their leg broken too?

Spoiler:
Sci-fi writer L.M. Bujold examines these sort of questions in her Vorkosigan series. Her hero Miles is exposed to a toxin while still a fetus gestating in an uterine replicator. While the Miles the fetus is saved, there are severe teratogenic effects which require extensive and ongoing medical treatments. In one book, it's revealed that a clone of Miles was created early on and subjected to the same teratogenic effects. As Miles repeatedly injured himself, the same injuries were inflicted on the clone. Even medical procedures were replicated. Each time Miles has some of his brittle and/or damaged bones replaced by substitutes, the clone has the same bones replaced in the same fashion.

Now, imagine the procedures a double/clone Strephon might possibly undergo as the real Strephon lives his life. Horrific doesn't even begin to describe it.


GDW may have been bowing to their fan's wishes when they switched real Strephon with imposter Strephon, but they definitely opened up a very troubling can of worms.

Kind of surprising that it hasn't featured in a published adventure yet. Just imagine the brouhaha if some TNE-era players found one of the spare Strephons chilling (so to speak) in a low berth somewhere.

That sounds like fun, but TNE didn't "live" long enough to engender many published adventures beyond the RC/Space Vikings/Smash & Grab setting. We did get a Regency Sourcebook covering the Marches/Behind the Claw, but there was very little published in the way of adventures.

The versions which followed TNE have all avoided the Rebellion and Viral Eras as if those eras carried Ebola. GT is an alternate history with Dulinor being killed before he shoots up the Throne Room, T20 and T4 are set in "the Future's past", MgT is seemingly content to mindlessly stumble around the Classic Era shitting up any previous canon it touches, and Mongoose's license means third party publishers are limited to either the OTU's Classic Era Foreven sector or wholly non-OTU settings(1).

None of the "version" publishers have wanted to touch the third rail of the Rebellion/Viral eras and 3rd party publishers can't work in those eras, so no adventures or campaigns featuring a relic Strephon clone/double are unlikely to be published.

1 - It's not surprising that nearly all third party materials published have been either setting-free monster/treasure/ship listings like Creatures of Distant Worlds or non-OTU settings like Outer Veil and Clement Sector.
 
GDW may have been bowing to their fan's wishes when they switched real Strephon with imposter Strephon, but they definitely opened up a very troubling can of worms.
Indeed. Including the very troubling slavery issues involved. But that could have been fixed by changing the clones to surgically altered doubles. I know some of the people involved with GT tried to do just that, but were refused permission.

MgT is seemingly content to mindlessly stumble around the Classic Era shitting up any previous canon it touches...
That's a little harsh. MgT has made some deliberate changes with which I, for one, disagrees vehemently, but I don't think there was anything mindless about them. That's just how they felt that the Classic Era ought to be. They've also made some mistakes, but that's impossible to avoid when a body of work the size of the OTU canon is involved. And after an inauspicious start they've made a decent effort to pay attention to previously published material and not change things gratuitously.


Hans
 
That's just how they felt that the Classic Era ought to be.


I don't think they've ever thought or cared about how the Classic Era "ought to be". If that were so, they would have fixed things rather than messing them up even more. Mongoose just want to sell books and all the rest can go hang.

Of course, GDW basically had the same mindset early on too. Seamless canon and new materials "fitting" previous materials wasn't a major concern at the time, which is why you note that:

...but that's impossible to avoid when a body of work the size of the OTU canon is involved.

OTU canon is mess because it wasn't meant from the start to be a coherent whole. That's how RPGs were in 1977. Nowadays things are different, but Mongoose didn't care.

And after an inauspicious start they've made a decent effort to pay attention to previously published material and not change things gratuitously.

So admit they'd changed things gratuitously? Anyway, they've only made that effort because they got their asses repeatedly kicked between their ears both here and on other RPG sites for their unnecessarily sloppy and slipshod work. If Traveller fans hadn't screamed, Mongoose wouldn't have changed a blessed thing.

It's not a good sign when someone can't be bothered to do their job right the first time, don't you think?
 
It's not a good sign when someone can't be bothered to do their job right the first time, don't you think?
I find that my opinion about the quality of material is not always the same as those of other people. I find it even more difficult to judge the reasons people have for producing stuff that I dislike. I definitely don't feel entitled to jump to any conclusions about their motives. Or rather, I don't feel it appropriate to express those conclusions in public as if they were incontrovertible facts.

And most importantly, I don't find it productive to bad-mouth other people in public without incontrovertible proof (and quite often not even then).

(That's not to say that I don't forget myself occasionally).


Hans
 
And when they still outlive the emperor they've spent their lives imitating?[...]How about when physical changes happen to the real emperor? If the real emperor breaks a leg, does the clone (or clones!) get their leg broken too?

I think any answers to these questions would be of necessity rather speculative until addressed somewhere officially, but I confess my thoughts went immediately to Hank and Dean's "clone slugs" in Venture Brothers. I can imagine there might be some TL14-15 circumlocutions for some of these ethical dilemmas, or the doubles would just serve until after the Emperor healed up from his situation, but it's all hypotheticals, isn't it?

I know some of the people involved with GT tried to do just that, but were refused permission.

Weird! That seems like an odd thing to insist upon. Kind of curious which GT supplement that could have even gone in...Nobles?
 
I think any answers to these questions would be of necessity rather speculative until addressed somewhere officially...


I don't think they'll ever be addressed officially and with good reason. As you've seen, the implications can quickly become troubling. Even more so if cloning is involved.

... but I confess my thoughts went immediately to Hank and Dean's "clone slugs" in Venture Brothers.

I read about Strephon's double - which was never described as being a clone, by the way - long before the wonderfully weird Venture Brothers series ever aired but, yes, the story - and eventual fate - of Rusty's supply of Hank and Dean clones suggests all sorts of nastiness. Of course Strephon's double and Hank & Dean's clones aren't exactly analogous.

First, we only really know of one double. A few faction leaders dismiss the appearance of the Real Strephon by remarking that Strephon had occasionally used doubles (note the plural) for various reasons, but those comments weren't made in an authorial voice; they're in-setting comments made by in-setting characters rather than metagame comments made by someone writing setting material. Putting it another way, the references to doubles is something which a fictional character thinks they know rather than an absolute fact.

Next, the double is never described as a clone. Now, we know cloning is possible; Norris cloned himself a daughter. We also know that genetic materials from Strephon are stored in various places; long after he was killed in the throne room Margaret in Delphi used such materials to give birth to twins naming Strephon as the father. Cloning is possible and should be an option, but we simply don't know.

Now I could have very well missed something, but I don't think we have ever been flatly told that Strephon had more than one double or had clones. He should have had more than one double and he should have had clones, but we've never been officially told. It's all just speculation on our part, well founded speculation, but speculation still.

Finally, the Venture Brothers clones feature a complete personality/memory transfer which again we've never been flatly told is possible in the OTU. There are lots of hints, like the personality overlay device in Mission to Zhodane or the late MT adventure featuring a robot with a transplanting human brain among others, but nothing has ever been specifically laid out.

The Venture clones are kept in storage until the "active' Venture clones are killed whereupon the next set is decanted, memories/personalities transferred with some judicious editing, and the brothers live again. (Apparently, the process has happened so many times that Rusty and Brock have trouble remembering many copies they've decanted!)

If Strephon had a clone or clones and if the 3I lacks the personality/memory transfer technology Rusty Venture uses, than Strephon's clone(s) must be already decanted and must be constantly briefed on the emperor's thinking and activities.

Like we've both said, things get really screwy really fast once once you begin walking down this particular road.

...but it's all hypotheticals, isn't it?

Exactly. Most of what we "know" is really just fan speculation. The actual published facts are remarkably few.
 
I read about Strephon's double - which was never described as being a clone, by the way ...

I was basing that off a line from Strephon's journals in Survival Margin (p.13), where he says "I will also describe my two other clones as surgically altered doubles to allow them a better chance to escape persecution, assuming they haven't already been killed, It's only fair to give them some kind of fighting chance."
 
Perhaps it's best that it is not canon as to the truth of the situation?

Leaves you all free to write the story, perhaps working side by side with the real Strephon and/or his descendants that escaped 'the job'?
 
Perhaps it's best that it is not canon as to the truth of the situation?

Leaves you all free to write the story, perhaps working side by side with the real Strephon and/or his descendants that escaped 'the job'?

It doesn't matter one little bit either way. We're all free to write any part of the story any way we want to, canon or not. Unless we're writing for publication by an official publisher, that is.

The only time it matters if a fan is sticking to canon or not is when other fans may want to use his work. And if there's no canon to stick to, different fans are likely to come up with different versions, each perfectly possible, but mutually exclusive.


Hans
 
Perhaps it's best that it is not canon as to the truth of the situation?


That's a very good point. By choosing not to further explain the issue, canon can wisely avoid dealing with some troubling ideas while also leaving things wide open for GMs to answer as they see fit.

That's a win-win if there ever was one!
 
Finally, the Venture Brothers clones feature a complete personality/memory transfer which again we've never been flatly told is possible in the OTU.

Actually, we have. It's on the TL tables and in the rules for T5.

MT Ref's Companion gives "Crude Memory Transfer" at TL16
Selective memory erasure is TL17
Memory Transfer "Dupe" is possible at TL18.
See MT RC page 28.

The Emperor has access to the Sabmiqys (TL17 stagnant, described as having higher than that for med tech), and could theoretically have had them do the clone and dupe work... with just enough erasure to know that they aren't the original.

So, we are told that it's canonically possible. We aren't told that he actually has access to it.
 
I thought we had been told that no one has access to Sabmiqys technology (except themselves, of course). Something about all attempts to land being met with meson gunfire.


Hans
 
Back
Top