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Storing hydrogen in buckyballs
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Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
You are linking to "start a new thread"?
From my limited knowledge of the subject, the big problem with fuel densification of hydrogen is that hydrogen is just so darn light and everything else (by comparison) is so darn heavy that there are serious chemical limits to how dense you can store hydrogen.
Last time I checked, carbon nano-tubes were better than bucky balls, but good old fashioned diesel fuel was still better than either of them. And all of the storage medium tested so far quickly get heavy.
The last DOE report that I read suggested that about 20% H2 by weight was about the best that could be expected without some completely new system being discovered, so about HALF the volume of LH2 is the best case for a liquid, and a QUARTER the volume for a solid.
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I did a project in high-school about fullerenes - they are way cool, harder than diamonds, more "lubricanty" than most other things.
From my understanding the weight of the molecule is not the problem, but rather the size of the H2 molecule itself. It is simply so small that it "gets past" the metals crystalline granules (or some such). If they have managed to create a stable fullerene capable of holding H2 contained that is all good, but for it to be useful as a replacement for petrol/gas they also need to device a way for extracting it safely and efficiently.
ETA, I realise now that you more spoke of energy density...
From that we can conclude that by weight hydrogen outclasses all else things chemical, by volume not so and that is a problem for cars i guess.
I am more for the metal hydride approach myself over "fullerene" or "nanotubes" as we me over to a hydrogen economy (as a believe we will). Theoretically IIRC a metal hydride could store hydrogen at five times the density of liquid hydrogen at room temperature, thus containing slightly more energy by volume than hydrocarbons and it is safe (well "safer"
) too. More about hydrogen storage here.
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Renaissance Man
SOC-12
Some completely new system eh? Like perhaps a bonded superdense/magnetic containment? Grav-based technology in traveller probably beats the crap out of anything bucky-related. However, before grav tech, you had crytaliron, which suggests some form of precision molecular construction techniques. You could use a layers of fullerines maybe to act as catch pockets for hydrogen that escapes from the inital layers of storage tanks.
Speaking of grav tech... are TL 12+ fusion reactions started by false gravity? If you can collapse the structure of a metal hull in a gravity field to make it tougher and less ablative, seems you might be able to start a fusion reaction with a dram of hydrogen and a gravity field.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
This is a cool idea! So, the ship's fuel tanks aren't just empty spaces on the ship - they're fine lattices of Li-coated buckeyballs! Could be why unrefined fuel is such a problem - it messes up the adhesion/release of the hydrogen. Maybe it even breaks loose some of the buckeyballs and they get into the powerplant. So, instead of a steady stream of hydrogen (2 molecules at a time), you get a little kaboom with 60 molecules all at once. That could be bad...... :devil: :toast:
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Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I see little need to store hydrogen inside "buckyballs" to prevent them from escaping if they are to be used as fusion fuel. just store them together with oxygen or carbon in a chemical bond, then they are going nowhere even with normal/real-life container materials. I think it gives far better weight/ volume efficiencies too.
if the stored hydrogen is to be used as chemical fuel though, then it makes no sense "storing" it together with oxygen in a tank...
if the stored hydrogen is to be used as chemical fuel though, then it makes no sense "storing" it together with oxygen in a tank...
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
This probably points to the ultimate way of storing Hydrogen. If you have the tech to partially collapse the atoms (heading toward white dwarf material, which is what I always figured it meant, maybe I'm wrong) then by doing the same thing with your fuel, you can increase the energy density hundreds or thousands of times - you only use the nucleus, after all.
However, if you think the size of Hydrogen atoms causes containment problems now...
G. Fieendish
SOC-12
Re: Using Gravity to create ultra dense hydrogen
If you're going about using gravity to create ultra dense hydrogen for fusion, then how about using damper fields to stabilise a hydrogen isotope with a muon replacing the electron....
(This has seriously been proposed for a potential fusion fuel, but due to the very short lifespan of the muon particle is considered impractible at present).
Hey presto, a atom of "hydrogen" 140 times denser than normal....
If you're going about using gravity to create ultra dense hydrogen for fusion, then how about using damper fields to stabilise a hydrogen isotope with a muon replacing the electron....
(This has seriously been proposed for a potential fusion fuel, but due to the very short lifespan of the muon particle is considered impractible at present).
Hey presto, a atom of "hydrogen" 140 times denser than normal....
IMTU, TL 9-12 fusion reactors are magnetic-confinement tokamak-types. TH 13-14 reactors are inertial confinement, and TL 15+ reactors are gravitic confinement.
Someone must have pointed this out before at some time: there is a biiiiiiig problem with superdense anything in Traveller. Traveller seems to assume superdense material is just degenerate fermionic matter. Degenerate matter, however, is a spring: it holds a lot of potential energy, usually kept in check by a very large natural gravity well. You need a lot of sustained gravities to keep degenerate matter together.
No problem: we'll just have a very thin layer of the stuff on the outside of our hull, with built-in micro-sized grav generators. Which works wonderfully until those little grav generators fail. The result would be a chain reaction. Any hull puncture that damages the grav generators would destroy the vessel (and, if planetside, much of the surrounding geography.)
--Devin
Someone must have pointed this out before at some time: there is a biiiiiiig problem with superdense anything in Traveller. Traveller seems to assume superdense material is just degenerate fermionic matter. Degenerate matter, however, is a spring: it holds a lot of potential energy, usually kept in check by a very large natural gravity well. You need a lot of sustained gravities to keep degenerate matter together.
No problem: we'll just have a very thin layer of the stuff on the outside of our hull, with built-in micro-sized grav generators. Which works wonderfully until those little grav generators fail. The result would be a chain reaction. Any hull puncture that damages the grav generators would destroy the vessel (and, if planetside, much of the surrounding geography.)
--Devin
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
Hurm. That's not good
Kinda makes every modern armoured starship a bit of a powderkeg. Technically speaking, if what you say is true, any significant chunk of hull that ablates off or suffers a sudden loss of even a single grav generator's worth of containment would set off a chain reaction.
What's the alternative? Is there any way to work this so its more stable? How big a handwave are we looking at?
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Stable DG matter requires about as big a handwave as the micro grav generators that support unstable DG matter. It just don't happen.
My advice? You were happy with it before, just forget about it again, like you forget about FTL travel, grav manipulation, repulsors, reactionless drives, jump space etc etc.
Traveller Sci Fi is not as 'hard sci' as it professes to be - never has been.
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
Hey - it's harder sf than Star Wars and Star Trek, and that's hard enough for me.
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
The more I think about it, the more I see grav-collapsed matter as a WEAPON rather than a defence.
Think about it - Lobbing balls of SD held together with a grav generator, and then boom - once it hits, off goes generator and you have yourself a railgun with attitude.
It would be a renaissance for slug-throwers.
Think about it - Lobbing balls of SD held together with a grav generator, and then boom - once it hits, off goes generator and you have yourself a railgun with attitude.
It would be a renaissance for slug-throwers.
Renaissance Man
SOC-12
How about carbon? How tough would SD diamond be?
What about strange matter? Right now there is a debate about whether there is any danger from particle accelerators producing strangelets (clumps of up, down and strange quarks) that are stable and absorb ordinary matter to make more strange matter. Needless to say, physicists don't think so, but there are intrguing philosophical arguments about risk, how much precaution we need against species-ending events, and our understanding of natural law that keeps us busy here in Oxford (I love my job!)
In any case, one possibility which would be safe is that strange matter is stable, but doesn't absorb matter because it has positive charge - atomic nuclei are repelled when they get too close. It would pick up electrons to get an overall neutral charge. If the surface tension has the right weird properties (wild handwaving) macroscopic structures of strange matter could exist. They would be held together by the strong nuclear force and likely be very resilient (assuming that they are not liquid). Maybe this would work?
In any case, one possibility which would be safe is that strange matter is stable, but doesn't absorb matter because it has positive charge - atomic nuclei are repelled when they get too close. It would pick up electrons to get an overall neutral charge. If the surface tension has the right weird properties (wild handwaving) macroscopic structures of strange matter could exist. They would be held together by the strong nuclear force and likely be very resilient (assuming that they are not liquid). Maybe this would work?
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Best bet, probably, is to go with Anthony's suggestion of normal matter - you could maybe double that density without stretching credibility too far. Make it a nano alloy of large heavy atoms linked into a framework of thermally superconducting monowire, nanotubes and buckycages. You could call it Handwavium. 
Maybe it works as a combination of the liquid armour discussed elsewhere and memory metal. It absorbs impact in a flexible, high inertia metal putty that then reforms to its original shape.
Or not...
Maybe it works as a combination of the liquid armour discussed elsewhere and memory metal. It absorbs impact in a flexible, high inertia metal putty that then reforms to its original shape.
Or not...
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