Starship Design Errors

[andyakins]

A couple of the starships have some mistakes when it comes to weaponry tonnage.

The rule is - a turret of a given weapon has a fixed displacement. A single laser turret takes up 1 ton. A triple laser turret takes up 1 ton. This is per "Available Turret Weapons" on page 272. This is also the way it was in High Guard.

However, the following designs have done it incorrectly, saying that a triple laser turret (or missile turret) takes up _3_ tons:

System Defense Boat
Patrol Cruiser

Other designs appear to be correct.

Andy

 

[matrix cypher]

hey thats weird, hmmmm.

man 3 ton turrets.... thats big.

 

[matrix cypher]

thats how big the turrets are in TNE is 3 tons. 6 tons for barbets and you can fit other weapons in them.

MT turrets are 1 ton for missles, lasers and sand casters. 2 tons for plasma and fusion turrets. partical turrets are 5 tons at TL14, 3 tons as TL15, 2 tons at TL16, and 1 ton at TL18.

CT turrets are 1 ton.

Im getting so confused.

 

[themink]

Lucky that Canon is consistent (snigger)

Probably represents evolving design philosophies in different places in the Imperium (sounds like as bad a reason as anything)

 

[hunter]

Page 331) System Defense Boat
Cargo Space for the SDB should be 22.6 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 3 Beam Lasers should be 1 ton and the Tonnage for the 3 Missile Racks should be 1 tons also.

Page 335) Corsair
Cargo Space for the Corsair should be 165.9 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 3 Missile Racks should be 1 ton.

Page 336) Patrol Cruiser
Cargo Space for the Patrol Cruiser should be 32.8 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 6 Beam Lasers should be 2 tons and the Tonnage for the 6 Missile Racks should be 2 tons also.

Hunter

 

[far-trader]

Hunter did you change your mind along the way or what?

OK, not to disturb a long dead post for some simple ghoulish reason but I was just playing with a design and reading the design rules for turrets and weapons for the zillionth time and this time I read it very differently so I did a search and these posts came up. My problem is this exactly.

I was happily using one version but then this time reading it I got the other way of doing it noted above. I checked the eratta for the designs and they agree with the no tonnage for the turret but total tonnage for all weapons put in. For example a double turret by itself requires no tonnage but stick a single missile rack in and you need 1T, add a fusion gun and you need 2T more. Hunter's statement above says this is wrong and the designs will be corrected but they are not in the latest eratta.



Help!

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello everyone,

Turret size has been a confusing topic for a long time. My understanding of turrets is this:

A single laser weapon system can be housed in either a 1, 2, or 3 dton turret.

Two laser weapon systems can be housed in a 2 or 3 dton turret.

The reason for this is that a single laser weapon weighs 1 dton, 2 systems = 2 dtons, and 3 systems = 3 dtons.

If someone could explain how a 1 dton turret can hold 3 dton weapons, I'd like to hear the answer?

 

[far-trader]

I agree Tom. Despite Hunter's answer above which he seems to have changed according to the latest eratta. It just makes more sense that you add up the weapons to see how full the turret is.

Of course, to answer your question, CT and HG were different. They just needed you to provide 1.0T (or more for HG energy weapons and particle accelerators) per turret for fire control and the turret could apparently be any size without impacting the ship design. That's not unreasonable either, just a different choice. The only problem with saying turrets don't impact the design is then why should anything else added on, like drop tanks or craft mounted on external docking clamps. There's a whole kettle of fish to fry down that road. Right now I'd just like the definitive T20 rule for turret size(s) explained clearly with an example or two.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening far-trader,

Yes, I agree and is one among several design, in all Traveller versions, sequence issues I have stumbled across. HG is considered to be part of CT, a.k.a. Book 5, so I think you mean different from Book 2: Starships, in which you are correct. Starships is a very basic and limited design sequence, while HG gives you, in theory, a more advanced version design sequence. This question has just jogged my memory of something I need to post on the Q&A board.

Originally posted by far-trader:
I agree Tom. Despite Hunter's answer above which he seems to have changed according to the latest eratta. It just makes more sense that you add up the weapons to see how full the turret is.

Of course, to answer your question, CT and HG were different. They just needed you to provide 1.0T (or more for HG energy weapons and particle accelerators) per turret for fire control and the turret could apparently be any size without impacting the ship design. That's not unreasonable either, just a different choice. The only problem with saying turrets don't impact the design is then why should anything else added on, like drop tanks or craft mounted on external docking clamps. There's a whole kettle of fish to fry down that road. Right now I'd just like the definitive T20 rule for turret size(s) explained clearly with an example or two.

 

[far-trader]

Well, what I meant (hehe the new psi-helm works fine ) was that CT (LBB's 1-3 imo) and HG (LBB 5) were compatible in that both (at least in my editions) treat turrets the same. That is you buy a single, double or triple place turret and can put in the appropriate number of weapons with no additional space required beyond the basic for the weapon type.

For example both use the standard turret (which I call a Light Turret) which is available in single, double or triple mountings and can mount (one, two or three) lasers, missiles, or sandcasters (or a mix). This turret when installed requires 1T regardless of the number of mountings purchased or outfitted. IMTU this is the only civilian ship weaponry available, and the missiles are limited to the basic model.

HG introduced energy weapons (plasma and fusion) in a turret configuration (which I call a Medium Turret) available in single or double mountings only. When installed this turret requires 2T regardless of the number of weapons. IMTU these, along with 50T Bay Weapons are available to reputable mercenary companies, as well as the Bomb-Pumped Laser missiles.

And finally HG also gave us the particle accelerator turret (which I call a Heavy Turret). This is only available in a single mount version and when installed requires 3T. IMTU this turret, 100T Bay Weapons, and Spinal Mounts are the province of Imperial forces alone, along with Nuclear missiles

That's the way CT and HG handled it (at least as I follow it) and the presumption was that T20 was following this format. Hence the valid first question above and Hunter's apparent agreement at the time, despite the updated errata not being in this format. It also seems that the current crop of spreadsheets and the T20 High Guard Shipyard program all use this CT/HG format.

So, I'm not saying I prefer one over the other, each has its merits, I'm just looking for Hunter's final say as The Word for all official T20 designs

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello everyone,
If someone could explain how a 1 dton turret can hold 3 dton weapons, I'd like to hear the answer?

The simple explination: From book 2 the turret was of some unknown size, but each turret required 1 ton of internal space for fire control and mounting. HG and T20 follow this convention.

This drove the GT Starship modular design team bonkers. Because GURPS Vehicles (and MSDS) specifiy the size of the turrets (3 dtons) and the space taken (1 dton) (which violates the Vehicles space requirements for turret mount rules).

 

[far-trader]

Hunter

Good day and apologies if you are on this already. Did the eratta for the weapons slip through the cracks or did you change your mind about the methodology?

Originally posted by hunter:
Page 331) System Defense Boat
Cargo Space for the SDB should be 22.6 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 3 Beam Lasers should be 1 ton and the Tonnage for the 3 Missile Racks should be 1 tons also.

Page 335) Corsair
Cargo Space for the Corsair should be 165.9 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 3 Missile Racks should be 1 ton.

Page 336) Patrol Cruiser
Cargo Space for the Patrol Cruiser should be 32.8 tons. Under the Design Specifications the Tonnage for the 6 Beam Lasers should be 2 tons and the Tonnage for the 6 Missile Racks should be 2 tons also.

Hunter

 

[far-trader]

Still wondering

 

[zephyrus]

I am also curious, the Highguard Shipyard 1.13 program appears to have a mechanism for constructing T20 starships. it appears to be fairly accurate... provided that ships are built at TL 15... instead of their respective TL's as indicated in their statblocks.

for example. the Scout Ship works in the program provided it is built at TL 15. at TL 11 it has only 12 tons of cargo.

Note these calculations are the result of the program which may require an update. Part of the reason I mention this is because the jump from 5 tons to 20 tons of cargo space on a scout ship is rather remarkable. even if it is from 5 to 12tons thats still a notable increase.

 

[zephyrus]

also, Am I missing something or is the costs involved once added together come up pretty much exactly 10MCr shy (add everything up and you get 42.223MCr vs the listed 52.223 (note these prices are per the standard designs PDF errata).

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Zephyrus:
also, Am I missing something or is the costs involved once added together come up pretty much exactly 10MCr shy (add everything up and you get 42.223MCr vs the listed 52.223 (note these prices are per the standard designs PDF errata).

Hmm, that freaked me out for a minute since that price is my budget mark for the JTAS design contest. I just checked it and it adds up fine for me. Must be you missed an item or dropped a decimal somewhere.

 

[zephyrus]

I'm using a excel spreadsheet to check the math and its comming up 10MCr shy. the 52.225MCr cost of the Scout/Courier is listed several places so I am reluctant to suggest its a typo. I've double and triple checked to make sure the input values are the same. Are their items on the condenced form for ship construction that factor into the cost?

 

[far-trader]

Well, I generally distrust spreadsheet and other programmed aids since I find them all (to date) at least slightly buggy and/or inherently biased to the authors traveller universe to some degree. Not to knock them, they are usually close enough and a huge time saver, just not perfect enough for final designs for me and usually unable to factor certain custom elements without tweaking.

Now your Mcr10 is a huge error somewhere and bears tearing apart the spreadsheet to find and fix it or letting the author know so they can find it. I say this because a quick check, manually building the ship described in the corrected design pdf using the T20 book design sequence produced the same design. So the design is correct for tonnage and cost and nothing is missing in the pdf form. Each item is listed correctly.

EDITED: Actually this is drifting off the forum and topic so if you want we can continue this elsewhere, like T20 Questions and Answers, just start a new topic there and I'll jump in when I get back Monday.