Star Legion Marine Organisation

[Falkayn]

Guys,

For want of a better place to put this, I'm posting it here. I'd like some feedback on the following suggested organisation for the Marine component of the Julian Protectorate's Star Legion.

I worked this stuff out because I was trying to determine how the 2400 marines on a State Colour class Carrier are organised.

A recap for those unfamiliar with the Star Legion IMTU. The Star Legion is the military force responsible for protecting the various member states of the Julian Protectorate, a mostly Vargr/Human confederacy in the Antares, Mendan, Amdukan and Empty Quarter sectors. There are three main divisions to the Star Legion, the Navy, the Marines and the Farguard:

Legion Marines
The Marines mainly consists of the Legions, the ordinary marines, their support vehicles and their heavy weapons. There are two elite squads within the Marines that are worthy of mention. The Hoplite Assault and Raiding Deployment Squads (HARDS) are battle dress equipped marines who specialise in EVA operations (Legion battle dress is called Hoplite armour). The Subsurface Qualified Insertion and Demolition Squads (SQuIDS) are marines who specialise in subsurface (ie. underwater) operations, particularly covert insertions and demolitions.

The way I figure it the force ratio works out as something like:
</font>

• Legion - 40%</font>
• HARDS - 40%</font>
• SQuIDS - 20%</font>

Squad Equipment
Marine squads are equipped according to their current role, but typically will have the equipment below at a minimum.

Legion Squad
There are two types of squads in the Legions:
Grunt Squad
6 men, wearing combat armour, wielding gauss rifles, with one heavy weapon specialist per squad.
Vehicle Squad
3 men and a vehicle, either a Shell (grav-APC) or a Claw (grav-tank)

HARDS
6 men, wearing Hoplite armour (Star Legion battledress) and wielding PGMP, with one man controlling a grav-sled that the rest will ride on.

SQuIDS
6 men, wearing whatever (from SCUBA gear to combat armour) and wielding whatever (usualy demolitions).

Unit Organisation
The following unit organisations are typically found in the Star Legion, but they will vary depending upon the time period, the local commander and the situation.

Semi Company
The smallest typical unit is a semi-company with 6 squads:
</font>

• 3 x Legion (1 x Grunt, 1 x Shell, 1 x Claw)</font>
• 2 x HARDS</font>
• 1 x SQuIDS</font>

Company
A more normal unit is the company with 12 squads:
</font>

• 6 x Legion (2 x Grunt, 2 x Shell, 2 x Claw)</font>
• 4 x HARDS</font>
• 2 x SQuIDS</font>

Battalion
The battalion is a larger unit used for more serious operations:
</font>

• 10 x Companies (600 men)</font>

Regiment
Because the Star Legion rarely needs to commit large numbers of Marines to any one engagement the regiment is the largest unit size that the Star Legion organises around.
</font>

• 4 x Battalions (2400 men)</font>

Based on this organisation, the State Colour class Carriers carry a Regiment of Legion Marines (and their landing craft) in addition to their 400 fighters.

 

[Tom Schoene]

I probably woudl not mix units down to that low a level. A platoon of any given type (legion, HARDS, etc) is probably the smallest unit you should find, for basic tactical reasons.

I'd also strongly enourage using platoons as an intermediate organization. The way you're doing it now, the span of control for a company is way too big (a commander can manage at most 5-6 subunits, and 3-4 is better for junior officers).

Next, you probably want to have some sort of weapons or support unit down at the company level, with wepons that require a couple of people (or powered armor) to move.

Finally, I'd break ou the Squids into separate comanies. They might function as a Legion company in some cases, but if there's underwater fightinhg nto be done, you want them fomred as a single large-scale unit, not scattered throughout your regiment).

To put this together, I might imagine an infantry company being more like this:

</font>

• Company HQ</font>
• Support Section (cooks, medics, etc.)</font>
• Weapons Section (tripod-mounted plasma guns, and maybe tac missiles or a few light drones).</font>
• 2-3 Legion Platoons (each of 3-4 squads plus a small command team)</font>
• 1 HARD assault platoon (2-3 squads)</font>

I'd estimate that to be somehere betweeen 120 and 150 troops.
Build up from there. A battalion would have its own headquarters and a much larger support unit, plus perhaps 3 infantry companies, a weapons company with heavier weapons (drone missiles and some support vehicles). That would be about 500 people.

A regiment could be three of these battalions, (1500 people), a SQUID battalion (400-600 people), and additional heavy weapons or assault units (another 300-500 people).

 

[Father Fletch]

I have to concur with Tom on this, especially since units trained to differing levels of expertise but under one command sometimes suffer in their being misapplied when it comes to mission tasking. The job of Squids and Hards are so different that trying to have them work together might be impossible. While both may excel in their own areas of expertise, the risk is to underutilize one or the other when in an Area of Operations for which only one unit is optimized. The other risk is the temptation to throw the underused unit into combat because there is no commander in history who ever felt he had too many troops to do a job. This would either have your Hards working in Squid territory as poorly equipped swimmers, or your Squids being throw into support of Hards as over trained Grunts.
Now in no way am I dismissing combined arms operations, and on the right scale they work well. But the environmental extremes to which the two types of troops seem to be suited will rarely be found together.
Infantry having organic armor and transport support is a good thing in most cases. I would keep those attached to your organization, but since support of special vehicles is cheaper in large numbers, the administrative organization of your tank and apc units would likely benefit from being grouped to at least the platoon or troop level, though they can be tasked to support units as small as a squad.
Another board has said it and I agree: The best write up of Traveller ground forces is Gurps Traveller: Ground Troops.

 

[Father Fletch]

Another thought occurs to me; the Squids seem like a bit of SEALS and Combat Engineers. They might benefit from specialized insertion craft and engineering vehicles that are not as directly compatible with grunt or Hards operations, but more as prepatory or support operations. These are other reasons to keep them out of the regular organizational tables used for Hards and Grunts. It enables them to work under officers who are more familiar with the types of jobs they CAN do and are able to excel at, thus using them more efficiently. When you consider how expensive shipping troops anywhere to do a job can be, you want to make sure that you sent the right troops in the first place.

 

[Falkayn]

Father, Tom, thanks for commenting!

You've made some good points that I will have to take into account, but first let me elaborate on what I'm trying to achieve.

I rather like the idea Heinlein puts forward in Starship Troopers, that separating the officer coprs form the actual fighters won't be necessary once technology rises above a certain level. This sort of thing is given a modern twist by John Ringo in some of his recent books (see www.baen.com). I think that is something the Star Legion could well implement - hence no separate command squads, at least until the regimental level (and Heinlein thought even that was unnecessary).

I take the points about mixed forces being problematic, but I wanted even a small group of Marines to be able to perform the full range of functions. I can see from your points above that that is probably very unwise, and probably unnecessry.

So, if we look at the comments above we could consider: </font>

• Making the SQuIDS a separate force, with their own specialised transports.</font>
• Keeping HARDS and Legions together.</font>
• Mobility is a key component to the force makeup, separate weapons sections aren't needed because of the presence of Shells and Claws, not to mention HARDS. The HARDS guys have a turret mount on the grav-sled that acts as their fire support (and then there's always starship weapons).</font>
• Flexibility is another key component which is why the emphasis on mixing types of squads. When the nearest reaction force is a minimum of 2 weeks away (usually 3 weeks - 2x Jumps and 1x transit time), you want to be able to hit hard, or soft as you need.</font>
• I take Tom's point about the size of force, so let's add a Platoon unit, with 3 squads, either Grunts/Shells/Claws or HARDS.</font>
• The Semi-Company then becomes the combination of a HARDS platoon and a Legions platoon, or two of each.</font>
• A point I left out before is that Grunts are not the less trained Marines, but rather the Marines who have good people skills. They are the ones who get to do crowd control, ship inspections, hearts-n-minds work, and anything else requiring diplomacy and tact.\</font>
• Physically adept tech-heads end up in HARDS, and the others make up the Shell/Claw crews. If you're not a tech-head and not a people person then you're not in the Marines, you're probably Navy (see below).</font>
• Support is provided by starship crews when aboard (99% of the time for the Star Legion) and the Marines themselves otherwise (you want to ensure the good cook doesn't buy a round). Medical doctors stay aboard starships and otherwise you rely on technology for the serious stuff (autodocs are GOOD).</font>

So does that improve the organisation?

 

[Tom Schoene]

OK, I can understand the Starship Troopers connection, but I think it's possible to carry it too far. Heinlein's notion that a company could fight without any staff other than the captain and a sergenant is a bit of a stretch, but perhaps feasible for short actions. Above that, you simply cannot do without a staff of some sort. Technology can knock out most of the clerks and radio operators, but can't so easily do away with analysts and decision-makers. I think a battalion would realistically need at least a CO, an XO, a senior sergeant, and about five staffers split between Intelligence, Operations, and Logistics. (They have to sleep sometime, but the batle won't necessarily stop while they do). I'd also strongly support the need for a security team at this level, so that the staff can focus on running the battle.

One thing you might consider is what David Drake does in his "fleet" stories. He's got a Marine Reaction Company with a very small forward command post (basically the CO, a sergeant and a clerk who really serves as the CO's bodyguard). But there is a formal headquarters under a first sergeant located at a base somewhere. The company HQ forwards mail, processes replacements, and takes care of other routine admin duties, leaving the "tactical" command post to worry about combat.

 

[Father Fletch]

Just another thought here. You could say that the Leigons use a lot, and I mean a lot of AI and robots to fill slots that the Third Imperium fills with humans. Differing prejudices and all.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
Just another thought here. You could say that the Leigons use a lot, and I mean a lot of AI and robots to fill slots that the Third Imperium fills with humans. Differing prejudices and all.

Hmm ... that is certainly how John Ringo handles it. Each soldier has an AID (Artificial Intelligence Device), that coordinates communication between officers and their men.

Here's a quote from Gust Front, the musings of a battalion commander:

Taking his lead from the resident expert, he started calling his artificial intelligence devide, a Galactic-supplied supercomputer the size of a pack of cigarettes, "Little Nag". He now used her for all his official correspondence and,m now he had gotten her over the annoying literalness of a new AID, she was better that any secretary he'd ever had. In the regular exercises the battalion was conducting, Little Nag kept better track of friendly and enemy disposition, personnel and equipment levels, and all the other minutiae that made for a successful military operation, than any staff in history. The newly arrived S-3 and the other battalion staff officers were getting used to their own AIDs and the staff was approaching a level of perfection seldom to be dreamed.

In the book all of those staff officers wear combat armour, and take part in assault operations.

So, the Star Legion Marines could certainly be arranged that way. It makes some sense having them be culturally different than the 3I, and they do have perhaps more direct access to K'kree technology (via K'kree settlements on the Vargr Extents side of the Lesser Rift), or even Zhodani technology (given their traditional siding with Vargr - and the fact that the JP separated from the 3I before the Psionics suppressions).

 

[Ranger]

Just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

Command Personel: IIRC the dual hatting in Starship Troopers was the result of personel shortages, not a deliberate organizational design. My experiance is that Heinlein was absolutly correct about the personel situation for any military organization, but that dual hatting doesn't work. At each level, the commander has to focus on one job. Trying to be both a platoon leader and a company commander is impossible. Commanders that fight also don't command well. They get too involved in the action in front of them and loose focus on the big picture (that's why unit commanders in the US Army are issued pistols rather than rifles).

Technology: It can be a great combat multiplyer, but the unit has to be able to operate in 'degraded mode'. You still need a battle staff to do all the jobs the AI systems will do just in case the AI goes down at a critcle juncture.

That's a long way of saying I think you will still need command elements at platoon and higher level. Also, when your organizing your units, try to keep span of control between 3 to 5 sub units.

Logistics: Right now you have a tooth to tail ration of 1:0. You can get around that by saying that the Navy does all the logistics for these units, but then you'll have to build in logistics support units for the Star Legion when you design your Navy TO&E. Just for example, modern armies run a tooth to tail ratio of around 1:9, that is one combat soldier for every 9 combat support and combat service support soldier.

Your idea of using underwater troops is excellent. Few worlds with a unified government would have a large standing wet navy, so infiltration on a planet with any significat amount of water would be relatively easy and a natural point of vulnerability for any planetary defense system.

Just my thought,

Rob

 

[shield]

Just a though on the hit hard / hit soft option, the good old imperial marines hit very hard and leave the soft stuff / civil insurgency stuff to the army with cheaper less capable and more numerous equipment and troops, see the Gurps ground forces.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

The more the merrier!

Originally posted by Ranger:
Command Personel: IIRC the dual hatting in Starship Troopers was the result of personel shortages, not a deliberate organizational design. My experiance is that Heinlein was absolutly correct about the personel situation for any military organization, but that dual hatting doesn't work. At each level, the commander has to focus on one job. Trying to be both a platoon leader and a company commander is impossible. Commanders that fight also don't command well. They get too involved in the action in front of them and loose focus on the big picture (that's why unit commanders in the US Army are issued pistols rather than rifles).

I agree about the dual-hatting, but Heinlein's core idea was that 100x MI = 100x combat soldiers, not 40x combat soldiers and 60x command and support personnel. I'm not saying that the commander should necessarily rely on himself to fight and lead, but the idea is to have him equipped to fight (and therefore having armour and a rifle) and with his men (and therefore part of a squad). His squad's job is to ensure that no rude interruptions require the commander to use his rifle (at least that's my fictional Star Legion theory).

Originally posted by Ranger:
Technology: It can be a great combat multiplyer, but the unit has to be able to operate in 'degraded mode'. You still need a battle staff to do all the jobs the AI systems will do just in case the AI goes down at a critcle juncture.

This is a great point, but if you've lost the AI, then you've probably lost most of your C&C systems, and perhaps your personal combat systems too.

Originally posted by Ranger:
That's a long way of saying I think you will still need command elements at platoon and higher level. Also, when your organizing your units, try to keep span of control between 3 to 5 sub units.

It does make it harder to calculate force strengths - laziness is my prime motivator here.

Originally posted by Ranger:
Logistics: Right now you have a tooth to tail ration of 1:0. You can get around that by saying that the Navy does all the logistics for these units, but then you'll have to build in logistics support units for the Star Legion when you design your Navy TO&E. Just for example, modern armies run a tooth to tail ratio of around 1:9, that is one combat soldier for every 9 combat support and combat service support soldier.

My Marine units are all based on ships at the moment, and the support staff are calculated into the starship crew numbers. When I start to think about bases seriously, this will become an issue. I don't anticipate many (if any) scenarios that have a Star Legion Marine force acting for large amounts of time away from their starship - if there was then they would build a base and then I guess I have to worry about the support personnel (unless I just borrow them from the Navy and make it a Navy base too?).

Originally posted by Ranger:
Your idea of using underwater troops is excellent. Few worlds with a unified government would have a large standing wet navy, so infiltration on a planet with any significat amount of water would be relatively easy and a natural point of vulnerability for any planetary defense system.

Thanks! I couldn't think of many special combat needs that couldn't be handled by a man in battledress, but subsurface (the liquid is not always water) stuff might well require special skills. I also wanted someone capable of taking out subsurface meson sites.

FWIW, the special forces element of the Star Legion is the Farguard Scouts. Unlike the IISS, they are a military group and act more like SAS/Rangers than a bunch of system surveyors/couriers. Farguard Intelligence offers intelligence gathering and clandestine operation abilities. Farguard Auditors fulfil internal policing, weapons inspections and diplomatic functions.

Originally posted by Ranger:
Just my thought,

Rob

And well worth adding!

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Just a though on the hit hard / hit soft option, the good old imperial marines hit very hard and leave the soft stuff / civil insurgency stuff to the army with cheaper less capable and more numerous equipment and troops, see the Gurps ground forces.

Cheers
Richard

Thanks Richard, unfortunately the Star Legion has NO Army component. Julian Protectorate member states field their own Armies, and the Star Legion borrows them if the need arises (although as they are never expected to mount a planetary invasion, this will be rarely if ever required).

The grunt Marines are used when the Star Legion doesn't want to come on all hard and heavy with a member state's (some of which are as small as nations on a planet) armed forces, or when civilians need to be managed.

 

[shield]

You may want to consider the zho approach for civil insurrection suppression. They use their warbots, as the loss of a bot to a sniper / mine is considered less important than a trooper. And risking your life to kill a bot is less dramatic than killing one of the enemy.

The JP could probably buy stuff from the consulate, they have reasonable relations (i.e. they are not imperials).

Cheers
Richard

 

[Uncle Bob]

Sneaky. Your Grunt Marines are really a heavy armor/mech force.

I would suggest a force with more dismounts, particularly for the counter insugency/ peacekeeping role. I also think you should put some of the tanks with the HARD boys. I threw some numbers at it, didn't like what I got. I will try again.

I wonder if SQUIDs and HARD could be combined? Zero-G and underwater enviroments are similar in many ways, breathing gear is breathing gear and a dual-use battledress/hardsuit ought to be good to 100 m, twice SCUBA.

Oh, you shouldn't say SAS and Rangers in the same sentence. The US Army Rangers wear a sand beret, but the resemblence goes no deeper, except maybe in their own minds.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I spent 'way to much time on this

Marine Regiment, personnel 134 O 2252 EM,
88 APC, 54 Tank, 152 Grav sled, 76 UW sled
_HQ 6 O 28 EM, APC 4
_HQ Security Section 16 EM, 1 APC, 1 Tank

_(2) Marine Battalions 20 O 424 EM, 35 APC, 17 Tanks
Everybody in combat armor with Gauss rifles
__HQ 4 O, 16 EM, 2 APC
__HQ Security Section 16 EM, 1 APC, 1 Tank
__(4) Marine Companies 4 O 98 EM, 8 APC, 4 Tank
____HQ 4 O 8 EM, 2 APC
Includes two junior officers who command ad-hoc platoons.
The senior section NCO can lead the 3rd platoon
____(3) Shell Sections 26 EM, 2 APC
______(2) APC NCO, 12 EM
________(2) Grunt teams (NCO & 3rifles)
________Shell Team (NCO, Drvr, 2 Gunners)
The gunners normally support the Grunts with APC mounted guns, but can dismount with weapons and join the grunts

_(2) HARD Battalions 30 O 464 EM 5 APC, 9 Tank, 76 Grav Sled
Everybody in Battledress with fusion guns
__HQ 4 O 16 EM 2 APC
__HQ Security Section 16 EM, 1 APC, 1 Tank
__CLAW Troop 2 O 32 EM, 2 APC, 8 Tank
____HQ 2 O, 8 EM, 2 APC
____(4) CLAW Sections, 6 EM 2 Tank
__(4) HARD Companies 6 O 100 EM, 19 Grav sleds
____HQ 2 O 8 EM, 3 Grav sleds
____(4) HARD Platoons 1 O 23 EM, 4 Grav sleds
______HQ 1 O, he rides with the
______Support Squad 5 EM, 2 Heavy weapons, 1 Grav sled
______(3) HARD Squad 6 EM, 1 Grav sled

_SQUID Battalion 28 O 432 EM 3 APC, 1 Tank, 76 UW Sled
APCs and tank are submersible
__HQ 4 O 16 EM 2 APC
__HQ Security Section 16 EM, 1 APC, 1 Tank
__(4) SQUID Companies 6 O 100 EM, 19 UW sleds
____HQ 2 O 8 EM, 3 UW sleds
____(4) HARD Platoons 1 O 23 EM, 4 UW sleds
______HQ 1 O, he rides with the
______Support Squad 5 EM, 2 Heavy weapons, 1 UW sled
______(3) HARD Squad 6 EM, 1 UW sled

Oh, APCs are big, like a Marine corp LVTP-7. 3 weapon stations, accomodate 4 crew, 8 dismounts, with room for a couple of Officers.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I spent 'way to much time on this

Ooh, I'm gonna have to digest this. Thanks for the great work Uncle Bob! (the Star Legion may just have to promote you to Grandmaster for this )

 

[Falkayn]

Uncle Bob,

I've partially digested the TOE you list above, but find that some of it (the Claw in the HQ security section, and the number of EM in that same section) don;t quite add up for me.

I've done my own rough outline of the HARDS Battalion TOE, and put it online.

I would appreciate it if you could please have a peruse, check my changes, and tell me if I've made any mistakes.

Cheers,

 

[Falkayn]

Uncle Bob, anyone?