Space Missiles in FF&S?

[ChaserCaffey]

I've been trying to design some space-combat missiles for my new copy of Brilliant Lances, and I seem to have run into a gray area in the rules. The FF&S design sequence for space missiles seems to work fine for conventional directed missiles, but what about semi- and completely independent missiles? Since the SIMs on the ordinance list carry less fuel than the directed missiles, presumably there's the need for some additional electronics- is there anything needed besides a sensor? What about CIMs, which presumably need some kind of onboard computer? Do they need to be designed with the robot sequence from Vampire Fleets?

Thanks!

 

[Badbru]

That's how I do them Chaser.
SIM's I just add a sensor. Usually a 1 hex pems if high tech but I've also used 3000klm HRT's and various ranged Ladars.

FIM's need a sensor and a system to "self run" , for which I found the robot brains in Vampire Fleets robot design sequence great for, as it gave me INT numbers for the brains and progamming numbers for the skill levels.

The really odd thing with missiles is the book published ones don't seem to match what the design sequence's allow you to build. At TL C+ with HePlaR drives it's not hard to get alot better than 12/12 for available g-turns/max burn.
I've done some TL D missiles with 80 available G turns with a 20G heplar drive.

Also there are various references to missiles having an AV 3 skin armour, yet by the starship design sequence that AV wouldn't even allow 1 g yet the missile design sequence doesn't stipulate armour. Or does it?

 

[BMonnery]

As the book missiles use EAPlaR, not HEPlaR

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Badbru:
That's how I do them Chaser.
SIM's I just add a sensor. Usually a 1 hex pems if high tech but I've also used 3000klm HRT's and various ranged Ladars.

FIM's need a sensor and a system to "self run" , for which I found the robot brains in Vampire Fleets robot design sequence great for, as it gave me INT numbers for the brains and progamming numbers for the skill levels.

Guess I need to find Vampire Fleets, then. I assume you also add in things like the 10-hex laser comm that missiles are supposed to have. How about batteries for the whole thing? I'd think that would be the real limiting factor.

The really odd thing with missiles is the book published ones don't seem to match what the design sequence's allow you to build. At TL C+ with HePlaR drives it's not hard to get alot better than 12/12 for available g-turns/max burn.
I've done some TL D missiles with 80 available G turns with a 20G heplar drive.

Also there are various references to missiles having an AV 3 skin armour, yet by the starship design sequence that AV wouldn't even allow 1 g yet the missile design sequence doesn't stipulate armour. Or does it?

First off, I think missiles use solid fuel motors, not HEPlaR. The latter would be interesting (maybe "long-burn" missiles), but probably too expensive. As for the armor issue...I suspect that was a game balance thing to make smaller laser turrets viable defense weapons against missiles.

Side note- has anyone ever contemplated putting more goodies onto a missile? Bad things could potentially be done with an EMM system on a passive missile, or an EMS jammer to confuse defenses. Of course, there's the outstanding question of how much hardware you want to blow up when your missile detonates, which I suppose would limit how many systems you pack onto your missile.

How about flights of missiles "escorted" by recoverable jamming drones?

Edit: Not a good idea, on reflection- the only thing that would work would be a drone with an area jammer, and that would degrade your own side's sensors as much as the defense's.

 

[Zharkov]

I've not done it but I've considered making a long-range missile with the extra goodies described above, but with detachable warheads. Like the dispenser's from 2300. The missile returns, but drops one or more warheads when taking a shot.

 

[mike wightman]

I've toyed with contact detonating nukes and armoured bodies for missiles.
The submunitions dispenser is a good idea. In Traveller they could include sandcasters and area jammers in their submunition varieties.

Welcome aboard Zharkov

 

[Zparkz]

One of the errataas gives amror values for missiles depending on if it is sold fuel or liquid fuel. The nuclear pumped missiles includes a laser com receiver. FF&S p.144

I think that a HePlar missile will have a greater chance of hitting than a EAPLAC missile due to the fact that the HePlar got more g/hours to burn and got much more g-thrust. The increased price will pay back in increased hits. And the possibility to fire from a more disadvataged position.

 

[Antony]

Carry the hyper velocity missiles on a launch platform like my 12G TL15 Hermes class interceptor and watch the faces of the targets commander as a missile comes streaking in with a vector too high for fire control (FF&S1) to stop it.

Find the Hermes interceptor at
www.skaran.net/banners/equipment/Craft/Imperial/hermes.html

 

[TheDS]

Well if you want something insane, try building a missile with a fusion rocket in it. Get the minimum size rocket, and you wind up with a missile that does about 28Gs (iirc) with virtually unlimited range, but it's HUGE. I put a large autocannon (100mm?) in one, so that as the missile got close, it could shread the crap out of just about anything (penetration around 800+). Of course, assuming the figures are right in BR, a battleship has an AV of thousands... Then again, considering this thing's got 28Gs, I'm sure the penetration will be great enough that whatever payload you put on it will be insignificant.

I had wanted to use the missile as an all-around drone, putting sensors and jammers on board, allowing it to act like a decoy or remote sensor to keep ownship from being detected, but decent sensors are too big even for this monster. All missiles will HAVE to have guidance from the launching ship, otherwise they will NEVER find their targets, because their sensors are just too limited.

Unless we assume that 1 lightsecond is a long distance and not a short one (basically divide hex diameters by 10, everything keeps its range numbers, turns are 1/10th (3 min vs 30 min), and G-turns get multiplied by 10, etc). This will also allow us to dump grav-lasers and stuff like that, but it will probably also mean that evasive maneuvers are less important since the lightspeed gap is so small. I suppose the effect of evasion would be simply to smear a beam across the hull instead of letting it hit in one concentrated burst, so I won't count it out yet.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by TheDS:
Unless we assume that 1 lightsecond is a long distance and not a short one (basically divide hex diameters by 10, everything keeps its range numbers, turns are 1/10th (3 min vs 30 min), and G-turns get multiplied by 10, etc). This will also allow us to dump grav-lasers and stuff like that, but it will probably also mean that evasive maneuvers are less important since the lightspeed gap is so small. I suppose the effect of evasion would be simply to smear a beam across the hull instead of letting it hit in one concentrated burst, so I won't count it out yet.

This is the scale I like for ship to ship combat IMTU.

 

[TheDS]

Oh, and btw, that missile was EXPENSIVE! Missiles are supposed to be just cheap enough to get the job done; anything more spent is wasted when you detoate it.

 

[mike wightman]

If a 1MCr missile can take out a 1000MCr ship then you will win the war...

Provided you don't have to fire 1001 of them to achieve the hit

 

[TheDS]

I believe the missile I made was a lot more expensive, thanks to the fusion rocket.

Making adjustments to FR tech as a direct spinoff of fusion reactor tech, we can see this cost come down, but seeing as how it's fairly easy to shoot down missiles, you don't want to fire one of these unless the target is at the point where it can't hurt you anyway. Unfortunately, no amount of stealthing and probably no amount of deceptive jamming is going to keep this missile hidden while it is accelerating.

 

[vegascat]

Why would a fusion drive missile even need a warhead? It's mass*velocity would be enormous, plus on impact, wouldn't the fusion bottle destabalize and blow anyways?
Any warhead would just be overkill.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by vegascat:
Why would a fusion drive missile even need a warhead? It's mass*velocity would be enormous, plus on impact, wouldn't the fusion bottle destabalize and blow anyways?
Any warhead would just be overkill.

That's true, if it's possible to bring a missile into physical contact with the target ship. As discussed in the Brilliant Lances rules set, though, as the lightspeed gap begins to work more and more in favor of defenses and less and less in favor of the targeting ship, the missile is almost certainly going to be intercepted before it actually hits the target.

Thus, the purpose of the warhead is not to add more energy- as you pointed out, there's already plenty of kinetic energy there. The purpose is to allow the missile to score hits from (relatively) long distances- 30,000 km or less away from the target- using nuclear X-ray lasers.

Side note: I heard somewhere that the idea of the bomb-pumped laser was essentially disproven a few years after it was put forward. Anyone else hear about that?

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, doing a google on it produces a lot of evidence that the bomb pumped x-ray laser is a no-no.
I'll dig some up, unless someone beats me to it...

 

[Anthony]

There's a bunch of technical problems with bomb-pumped lasers, and they certainly won't have 30,000 km ranges without handwavium (such as, er, grav focus), but I don't believe that it's been conclusively proven that they're impossible (just unlikely).

Gamma ray nuclear lasers also haven't been proven impossible, though no-one really believes the UTexas claims at this point.

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, I'm not finding much beyond the fun on the very cool Atomic Rocket site (about half way down the page linked).

It suggests the biggest problem is the initial kick to trigger the nuke, usually done with conventional high explosives, which would of course throw off your rod aim. It gives a range of about 100km so yeah, without some gravitic focusing magic getting the kinds of ranges in the game would be unlikely at best.

 

[TheDS]

Holy crap that's an AWESOME site!

 

[mike wightman]

I take it you like it then

It's well worth taking the time to read through the whole lot IMHO.