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Space Elevator

Originally posted by Laryssa:
So why is it that the march of science seems to have halted?...Perhaps if science had a more measurable positive effect in our lives, the public would be more supportive of it.
Please forgive me for abbreviating so much of your post, but it seems that these two sentence provide a reasonable summary.

Let's look at a couple of examples...

Let's take biology - at the beginning of the last century, genetics was a brand new field. It took fifty years to discover the DNA molecule, and another fifty years to be able to map the human genome - a century from Mendelian genetics to a map of our genetic code.

How about engineering? The Greeks understood the concept of the steam engine, and Hero created a very simple steam "engine" in the first century. It took another fifteen hundred years before a more practical device would be built, and another century before devices that used high-pressure.

The advances in physics in electromagnetism at the beginning of the 20th century represented the results of a century of work - from Maxwell's equations to supercomputers took nearly 150 years.

Progress in science is slow and painstaking, and often leads to dead ends (which is a good thing, as these results guide productive future research). The concept of something, like Hero's steam engine or Mendel's inherited traits, and its practical application in the form of technologies like gene therapy or superconductors takes a long time, and often requires advances in related fields and the development of new technologies, such as metallurgy to produce the materials necessary to build safe high-pressure steam systems.

I guess I don't really understand your point-of-view that scientific progress has stopped, and I strongly disagree that sceintific research has no measureable impact on our lives.

To bring this back around to the topic at hand, the concept of a space elevator was described by Tsilokovsky at the end of the nineteenth century, at a time when little of the necessary technology, in either its intermediate or final stages, existed. A little over a century later our understanding of what's involved has advanced to the point that we are working on the necessary intermediate step of developing the material science to produce the cable. That's pretty significant progress, in my humble opinion.
 
You're not "paying them to make progress" - You're paying them to do science. Sometimes people's ideas just don't tally with how reality really works - it's stupid to blame a scientist who points out that there's a flaw in some idea that was never proven to work in the first place.
But science really paid off in a big way around the first half of the 20th century, it put that car in their driveway, it put a refrigerator in their kitchen, it made air travel a reality and the world a smaller place where one part of it can always be in almost instanteneous contact with another part, thats how it was in 1950, and now 56 years later, we still see that car in the driveway, that refrigerator in the kitchen and people still fly around in airplanes taking about the same time as they did in the 1950s. People in the 1950s thought that the scientists were doing a wonderful job improving their lives with all these inventions, but in 2006 people wonder what have these scientists done for them lately. Lately they've been coming up with esoteric facts, making their encyclopedias just a little bit larger, these new facts seem to have little to do with improving their lives, they seem interesting for those scientists that work in those fields, but no broader applications seem to develop from them that can apply to society as a whole. Its kind of like the difference between a spinning toy for an ancient greek philosopher and an actual steam engine that does useful work. The Ancient Greeks had an age of science too, they investigated alot of things, but what did these ancient Greek Philosophers actually do for the societies they lived in? Did they actually improve the lives of the average Greek citizen? No, the wrote books and educated themselves, learned that the world was round through their scientific measurements and then they quietly filed their papers away in the library of Alexandria, only to be burned centuries later by the Romans. A fat lot of good all that scientific investigation did the classical world. Technological progress was very slow through much of human history, and then it quickly accelerated at the end of the 18th century with the development of steam power, electricity in the 19th century, the development of the automobile, radio communication and flying machines in the 20th century, and for some reason, scientists and their investigations did not produce the substantial returns that they used to after 1950. What was the reason for this sudden technological explosion? Why should it have occured then and not later or earlier, and what was the reason for its sudden slowdown? One wonders if we've entered a new age of slower technological progress similar to the once that preceded the technological explosion at the end of the 18th century. Are we facing further millenia of the automobile, the airplane, and radio. Are we going to burn down our entire fossil fuel reserve, turn the Earth into a Venusian greenhouse with greenhouse gases because our scientists and engineers cannot come up with better alternatives?

Maybe further discoveries are harder for scientists to make than their predecessors, but all the public sees is the bottom line, they see money going into these scientific enterprises, but they also see the returns they get out of it getting smaller. That same old car, not all that different from Henry Ford's model T is still sitting in their driveway, they still have to wait in traffic as they commute to work in the city while big jumbo jets fly overhead. No flying cars to get them to work faster, they see some on television, they even seen a prototype flying at the end of a tether, the Mollier Skycar, but that was 10 years ago, their neighbor still hasn't gotten one, we still drive those ground cars and sit in traffic fuming.

I think there has been something of a disconnect between science and progress. The scientists continue their investigations, but they are no longer making the progress they once had. I'm not blaming the scientists for this. I just want you to see why the public doesn't have as much faith in science as they once had, and why they turn to things like religion.

The secularists fight religion, saying its superstition and the like, but they had a stronger case to make for science in the 1950s than they do now. People only see the bottom line, they don't know the reasons why, they evaluate things by the returns they get.

There was an article in the New Scientist recently about ITER, some politicians prediciting break even by 2050, while other scientists make a more gloomy assessement of it taking 100 years. The article continued to say that nuclear fusion still ought to be funded due to the benefits it would bring 100 years in the future.

If nuclear fusion is so hard, yet the hydrogen bomb, an invention of the 1950s, is so easy Wouldn't it be easier to harness the power of a hydrogen bomb than to produce controllable small scale nuclear fusion over the next 100 years. The engineering tasks of building such a huge container which can contain a thermonuclear explosion would be formidable indeed, but this is the science of producing large structures. In 100 years we can produce the modern equivalents of the Great Pyramids of of the ancient world. If we can build something large enough that can contain that nuclear explosion we'd be set as opposed to 100 years of uncertainty of maybe were making progress in nuclear fusion and maybe not.

Perhaps what we need to get into space is large scale engineering rather than scientific breakthroughs or technological inventions. The invention engine has broken down and the public is faced with the choice of either building massive engineering works with existing technology or of using that money to fund new research and making a new entry in scientific journals at great public expense. That is the point I'm trying to make.
 
Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
So why is it that the march of science seems to have halted?...Perhaps if science had a more measurable positive effect in our lives, the public would be more supportive of it.
Please forgive me for abbreviating so much of your post, but it seems that these two sentence provide a reasonable summary.

Let's look at a couple of examples...

Let's take biology - at the beginning of the last century, genetics was a brand new field. It took fifty years to discover the DNA molecule, and another fifty years to be able to map the human genome - a century from Mendelian genetics to a map of our genetic code.

How about engineering? The Greeks understood the concept of the steam engine, and Hero created a very simple steam "engine" in the first century. It took another fifteen hundred years before a more practical device would be built, and another century before devices that used high-pressure.

The advances in physics in electromagnetism at the beginning of the 20th century represented the results of a century of work - from Maxwell's equations to supercomputers took nearly 150 years.

Progress in science is slow and painstaking, and often leads to dead ends (which is a good thing, as these results guide productive future research). The concept of something, like Hero's steam engine or Mendel's inherited traits, and its practical application in the form of technologies like gene therapy or superconductors takes a long time, and often requires advances in related fields and the development of new technologies, such as metallurgy to produce the materials necessary to build safe high-pressure steam systems.

I guess I don't really understand your point-of-view that scientific progress has stopped, and I strongly disagree that sceintific research has no measureable impact on our lives.

To bring this back around to the topic at hand, the concept of a space elevator was described by Tsilokovsky at the end of the nineteenth century, at a time when little of the necessary technology, in either its intermediate or final stages, existed. A little over a century later our understanding of what's involved has advanced to the point that we are working on the necessary intermediate step of developing the material science to produce the cable. That's pretty significant progress, in my humble opinion.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, maybe. It still seems to me that I'm living in the 11th decade of the 20th century however. Scientific advances are still things you read about in periodicals rather than directly experience. Tha Mollier flying car is still a curiosity, I think the thing works, their are not many copies of it, its not being mass-produced, its just sitting there. Seems to me that Mollier went to alot of work, but it didn't amount to much other than a few interesting Popular Science articles. Traveller has flying cars called Air/rafts. Seems to me that Air/raft technology is already here although not using gravitics, but we still fly around on helicopters and airplanes and we still have to get to those airports in ground cars in order to use them. One hopes that the space elevator can get us into space where everything else has been frusterated, but their are alot of gloomy Guses wearing white coats running around saying its going to take 100 years to do this and 1,000 years to do that.
 
Originally posted by Laryssa:
[QB]I think there has been something of a disconnect between science and progress. The scientists continue their investigations, but they are no longer making the progress they once had. I'm not blaming the scientists for this. I just want you to see why the public doesn't have as much faith in science as they once had, and why they turn to things like religion.
I agree, but the public's "faith" in science has been in part because they're just plain ignorant and uneducated (the amount of people who don't know basic science or even how to think scientifically is just appalling nowadays), and also because being ignorant they prefer to believe in fantasy (e.g. religion, new age stuff etc) than accept what is real.


If nuclear fusion is so hard, yet the hydrogen bomb, an invention of the 1950s, is so easy Wouldn't it be easier to harness the power of a hydrogen bomb than to produce controllable small scale nuclear fusion over the next 100 years.
Because that just doesn't work. If it was that easy we would have done it ages ago.

Again, this is not a fantasy world. There are limits to what we can do.

Not to mention the political difficulties of persuading people that it's OK to blow up nuclear bombs in hardened buildings to provide power.


That is the point I'm trying to make.
If you're worried about public expense, you're looking in the wrong place. Science spending is peanuts compared to other things that are arguably less relevant or useful. If the money for a single fighter jet or cruise missile (the loss of which makes no difference at all to any nation's military arsenal) was diverted to science you could probably fund a hell of a lot of beneficial research just from that.

The point I'm trying to make is "welcome to the real world. Deal with it." There are other factors beyond science itself at play here - economics, politics, general inertia, and so on. It's not remotely fair or accurate to blame scientists for the fact that we aren't as advanced now as you think we should be.
 
In short, it's not the scientists' fault that 20% of the US' power comes from nuclear reactors, as opposed to 40% of France's. It's the fault of all the citizens who keep suing power companies to stop bulding them.

:D Now, back to a space elevator. Malenfant, you know something about orbital mechanics, right? What would happen to a space station in geo-synch orbit as it began to lower a massive cable to the Earth's surface? What would happen to the cable?
 
No idea
. I know if you snap a cable that's already set up then the upper half drifts away and the lower part that's still attached to the planet comes smashing down onto the equator.

Other than that I'm fairly clueless about how space elevators work
 
Originally posted by BillDowns:
In short, it's not the scientists' fault that 20% of the US' power comes from nuclear reactors, as opposed to 40% of France's. It's the fault of all the citizens who keep suing power companies to stop bulding them.

:D Now, back to a space elevator. Malenfant, you know something about orbital mechanics, right? What would happen to a space station in geo-synch orbit as it began to lower a massive cable to the Earth's surface? What would happen to the cable?
The trick to space elevators is not to make them that massive. You want to be able to lift the whole thing up into orbit and then lower part of it down. The cable has to be a thin ribbon. As you unroll the ribbon gravity takes a hold of the end nearer to the Earth pulling it down. As you extend the ribbon downward you also shift the center of mass of the whole satellite as it unrolls. The part of the ribbon satellite that is above the center of mass is pulled outward by centrifugal force and the force of gravity and the centrifugal force of the Earth's spin causes the ribbon to unroll all the way until its completely extended. The ribbon is now a very thin filament extending from up above geosynchronious orbit all the way down to the surfact of the Earth. The plan is then to use that ribbon to lift a similar ribbon up into orbit from the surface of the Earth so that it parallels the first ribbon doubling its strength, then a stitching machine climbs both ribbons and stitches the the two ribbons together to make a thicker stronger ribbon, that process is repeated over and over a gain with new ribbons until the space elevator is thick and strong enough to do useful work. This is mostly a bottom-up space elevator. The Trans-Human Space elevator is I think a top-down elevator, its made from an asteroid parked into orbit and a cable is thus manufactured on site and lowered from orbit down to the surface of the Earth. If the ribbon elevator was cut the lower portion would simply enter the Earth's atmosphere and disintergrate, not the disaster as was portrayed on Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson.
 
Originally posted by Laryssa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why should we pay so-in-so's salary for the next 100 years with no expectation that he'll produce anything except more doubts and more excuses for not accomplishing anything. The scientists in the first half of the 20th century had a much better track record than those in the second half. In the second half they always make tinier and tinier steps forward until it looks like we aren't moving forward at all. And people wonder why the public turns away from science.
</font>[/QUOTE]Laryssa, my initial reaction is to say come again? I think it is a matter of perception, another way to look at it would be to ask why was so little accomplished before the early 20th century. One answer, there was no science or scientific method as we know it prior to about 1600 AD.

Unfortunately, people seem to equate advances in science with toys and gadgets they use in their day to day lives or large theories of the universe. Advances in medical imaging in the last 50 years thanks to NMR and computer technology people don't see, but it makes their lives better. Likewise advances in chemistry that are greatly forestalling the depletion of oil reserves by allowing us to use more marginal sources are not seen but make a big difference. Carbon fiber and other materials in our cars and planes has drastically reduced the weight without sacraficing strength thus lowering fuel consumption. In addition, advances in understanding nanoscale matter has led to improved plastics, stronger and lighter. Most people don't know for example, that the plastic casing on there car battery is the result of improved plastics that make it stronger, more resitant to acid, and less toxic if it starts to burn etc.

I'm on a roll here
, what about Kevlar? Doesn't that simple material that can stop bullets amaze you?

Maybe a way to see if we really are only taking small steps is to take away some things that have come out in the last 50 years.

We didn't have cell phones, heck if you wanted to make a call you often had to go through an operator. Take everyones cell phone away and see if they think it's only a small step backward. We didn't have personal computers or microprocessors in the 1950s. Take microprocessors and computers away and again tell me it is only a small step backwards. In the area of pharmacueticals advanced antibiotics have been developed, take those away from all the people suffering from penicillin resistant bacteria and ask them befre they die if it is a small step. Take away the chemistry that allows for pin prick blood sugar checks, and ask diabetics if guessing there blood sugar is only a small step back. Take away all the proton pump inhibitor drugs, your Prilosecs, your Nexiums and ask the tens of millions of people who suffer from gastrointestinal reflux disorders if it is a small step back. On a less serious note, take away your viagra and see if it is a small step back (no pun intended).

You may not see these advances yet they are all around you, the beauty of our wealthy society is we can integrate them so seemlessly, in fact innovation is so constant it doesn't seem like innovation any more because we come to expect it. That if nothing else is a sign of how well science and engineering are churning out new knowledge and applications everyday. To ask someome 200 years ago if they expected to live in a world of different technology from that of their parents they would have said no and thought you were crazy. The very word technology would have been foreign to them.

Sorry to belabor the point, you can tell it is a bit of a hot button topic for me.
I too sometimes feel like "great advances" are not being made but force myself to look in a historical perspective. It took decades before Maxwell's beautiful and fundamental equations on electromagnetism were accepted. In fact, IIRC he killed himself thinking he was a failure. The same can be said for relativity and quantum mechanics (sans the suicide part). It can take decades to have the hindsight to see something was a great step forward, so I try not to get down if it doesn't seem like great discoveries are being made, they are we just don't know it yet.
 
Originally posted by BillDowns:
In short, it's not the scientists' fault that 20% of the US' power comes from nuclear reactors, as opposed to 40% of France's. It's the fault of all the citizens who keep suing power companies to stop bulding them.

:D Now, back to a space elevator. Malenfant, you know something about orbital mechanics, right? What would happen to a space station in geo-synch orbit as it began to lower a massive cable to the Earth's surface? What would happen to the cable?
Back on topic....Not sure on the orbital mechanics, but if a conductor you can get some nice current flows going in that cable for generating power.
 
Originally posted by The Oz:
Have you people ever heard of "Space Fountains?" They are a different way to build a surface-to-orbit structure that does not require any technology we don't already have today.
A space fountain is a technological artifact; by definition, if we haven't built one, it requires technology we don't have today. Ignoring that point, the space fountain requires mass drivers capable of efficiently accelerating objects to several kilometers per second, which is not currently available technology (and if it was, would have plenty of space uses).
 
Hi !

Orbital mechanics:
If the space station lowers a cable it has to lift its main body a tiny bit, so that the center of mass of the space station/cable system is located at the geostationary height.
Thats in fact kind of weight balancing.

If the cable is send down, each segment has the orbital velocity of the station above. As its going down thats not enough to compensate its own weight via escaping forces. So, the lower the cable goes, the heigher the effective drag (gravitional forces - escaping forces) will be.

Besides its a perhaps good idea the step away from thinking, that the space elevator is a thin tower. That really problematic.
If it should work with todays materials it might be a kind of pyramid of maybe a horizontally stretched Eifel tower, because the cross sectional surface always has to be big enough to take the pressure from the construction above.
By doing that, there is no need for fancy far future materials.

Height of a construction is not restricted. Just the slope is.

regards,

Mert
 
Originally posted by Ptah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why should we pay so-in-so's salary for the next 100 years with no expectation that he'll produce anything except more doubts and more excuses for not accomplishing anything. The scientists in the first half of the 20th century had a much better track record than those in the second half. In the second half they always make tinier and tinier steps forward until it looks like we aren't moving forward at all. And people wonder why the public turns away from science.
</font>[/QUOTE]Laryssa, my initial reaction is to say come again? I think it is a matter of perception, another way to look at it would be to ask why was so little accomplished before the early 20th century. One answer, there was no science or scientific method as we know it prior to about 1600 AD.
</font>[/QUOTE]Let me just say, that I'm not entirely convinced that it is the Universe that is responsible for the swift deceleration in technological advancement after the 1960s. I think it might have something to do with the choices we've made. In the 1960s it looked as if we we're going somewhere in space. The space age began and then it stalled. Various nuclear rocket options were considered as they were so much more efficient than chemical rockets as the exhaust is pure hydrogen, with a higher ISP, rather than water vapor. All that remained was to develop the right type of light weight reactor to heat the hydrogen reaction mass and the space age would have truly dawned. But then the environmentalists weighed in, and they stalled the space age by insisting that nuclear rockets were too dangerous, and now that we are stuck on Earth because of them, they decry all the damage we're doing to the Earth's Ecosystem because we can't live elsewhere because of them. I think that's rather short sighted thinking on their part. Nuclear rockets could no doubt have been developed that would have minimized fallout particals, but environmentalists are nothing if they are not absolutists.
 
Okay, so the technology to make such a ribbon or nanotube cable doesn't yet exist within our current reach today.

Question: Could a rigid, fixed "beanstalk" structure be built (ground up) ala T-2300AD, and use technology similiar to what we use in mag-lev trains to ferry freight to an orbital station? Or is this idea still within the realm of science Fiction, not Science Fact?

Me personally, I've used "beanstalk" spaceport/starports for TL8 worlds before in a Traveller universe.

"Gentlemen, the stage is yours"--Richard Burbage
 
Honestly, its more SF I guess.

I already thought about a 200 km high structure, to get out of the athmosphere, perhaps a 150 years project and a ground surface of 50 x 50 km...

Anyway, in order to somehow beat the gravity well we would have to go perhaps 40000 km.
Even future nanotubes might have problems with that.
Active elements (g or thrust based) would be needed to support such a thing, in order to take away drag from the structure above and pressure from the one below.
So maybe a TL9 topic, where early g-modules could be used to do the job.

Just noticed, that we already have a comunication TL of 9


Reagrds,

Mert
 
Originally posted by Laryssa:
Let me just say, that I'm not entirely convinced that it is the Universe that is responsible for the swift deceleration in technological advancement after the 1960s.
Nobody said it was.

I think it might have something to do with the choices we've made. In the 1960s it looked as if we we're going somewhere in space. The space age began and then it stalled. Various nuclear rocket options were considered as they were so much more efficient than chemical rockets as the exhaust is pure hydrogen, with a higher ISP, rather than water vapor. All that remained was to develop the right type of light weight reactor to heat the hydrogen reaction mass and the space age would have truly dawned. But then the environmentalists weighed in, and they stalled the space age by insisting that nuclear rockets were too dangerous, and now that we are stuck on Earth because of them, they decry all the damage we're doing to the Earth's Ecosystem because we can't live elsewhere because of them. I think that's rather short sighted thinking on their part.
Utter, complete nonsense.

You want to know why we're not in Space? Blame Nixon for not following through after Apollo. Blame the US public for getting bored with space after Apollo 11.

While it's true that some environmentalists are a PITA when it comes to nuclear power in space, we're not "stuck here because of them" - we're stuck here because of US Politics in the 1970s, the Vietnam War, and an American public that in the 70s had the attention span of a goldfish. Despite Kennedy's speech in the early 60s, the US went into space for all the wrong reasons in the 60s - solely to win a 'race'. After it was clear that they'd "won" and had accomplished the goal of landing on the moon, people just didn't see the point in carrying on. THAT is what was incredibly short-sighted.

Your assumptions are simply incorrect.
 
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Topic spin-off > Random Static ????
I could/would reply to some of the statements, but thats too off-topic in IMHO...
Agree.

I guess the biggest problem I have with the concept of a space elevator is that the people pushing the idea are not aerospace engineers, but AI scientists, robotics experts, etc.

As for the space fountain, I haven't looked into that article yet, so I will hold back comments for now.

I don't see anything particularly attractive about a space elevator over other mechanisms, so I guess I just don't get the point.
Other than the obvious thrill of jump off at 300km with a heat shield on your back. :D
 
reusable reaction mass. A space elevator pushes on the cable or ribbon and the cable/ribbon remains for other elevator cars to push against, thus lifting themselves up of the Earth's surface.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Laryssa:
Let me just say, that I'm not entirely convinced that it is the Universe that is responsible for the swift deceleration in technological advancement after the 1960s.
Nobody said it was.

I think it might have something to do with the choices we've made. In the 1960s it looked as if we we're going somewhere in space. The space age began and then it stalled. Various nuclear rocket options were considered as they were so much more efficient than chemical rockets as the exhaust is pure hydrogen, with a higher ISP, rather than water vapor. All that remained was to develop the right type of light weight reactor to heat the hydrogen reaction mass and the space age would have truly dawned. But then the environmentalists weighed in, and they stalled the space age by insisting that nuclear rockets were too dangerous, and now that we are stuck on Earth because of them, they decry all the damage we're doing to the Earth's Ecosystem because we can't live elsewhere because of them. I think that's rather short sighted thinking on their part.
Utter, complete nonsense.

You want to know why we're not in Space? Blame Nixon for not following through after Apollo. Blame the US public for getting bored with space after Apollo 11.

While it's true that some environmentalists are a PITA when it comes to nuclear power in space, we're not "stuck here because of them" - we're stuck here because of US Politics in the 1970s, the Vietnam War, and an American public that in the 70s had the attention span of a goldfish. Despite Kennedy's speech in the early 60s, the US went into space for all the wrong reasons in the 60s - solely to win a 'race'. After it was clear that they'd "won" and had accomplished the goal of landing on the moon, people just didn't see the point in carrying on. THAT is what was incredibly short-sighted.

Your assumptions are simply incorrect.
</font>[/QUOTE]The Vietnam war ended in 1975, the same year as the Apollo/Soyuz mission during the Ford Administration. The Apollo began during the Vietnam War and for most of the Vietnam war the Apollo program continued. After 1975, the Vietnam war provides no more excuses for not going into space, it doesn't explain why we were stuck here from 1975 till 2006 does it. Many people now alive were born after the Vietnam war ended. You have to come up with a better explaination that that for our lack or progress after Apollo.
 
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