Space:1959

[scottscane]

One idea I had was to start Twilight 2.2 et al in the fifties with a alternate space race. WWIII doesn't start until '68 during the 'Prague Spring, no Viet Nam War but there is a Second Korean War in'59 to start things off. Little things like Elvis staying in the army and the ONTOS fitted with Davy Crocketts.

 

[aramis]

[m;]Exception to the 1950 limit on "Real World Politics" granted, allowing to 1970, for discussion purposes[/m;]

 

[aramis]

Historically, the "Vietnam War" begins in 1954. Look for it under the name "Second Indochina War"... US involvement is datable to 1961 as combat forces, and 1950 as advisors... during the Korean war, really, but also the tail end of the First Indochina War.

http://www.historynet.com/vietnam-war
http://www.vietnamwar50th.com/assets/1/7/Info_paper_Vietnam_War_and_US_Start_Date.pdf

So there's no need to have a second Korean War - just step up the US combat involvement, and let the Soviets and Red Chinese step up to undisguised forces aiding the VC and NVA the same way the US was the ARVN...

 

[Sir Brad]

From a Strategic stand point If there was a mulity front war (from Indo-china to Formosa/Taiwan and up to the Korean Peninsula) on the Western Pacific Rim. this could embolden some of the more reluctant members of the eastern bloc in Europe to make a bid for braking away that the West could back (perhaps with open support). with active conflicts in East Asia and Europe, either side may opt for an Atomic Option to try and act as a force multiplier on either front.

Other fronts to consider are Latin America, The Caribbean, the Middle-East and Africa. If the Eastern Bloc is more aggressive and open than they where in our history this could also bring things closer to war, the same could be said about the US and to a lesser extent other western powers.

 

[McPerth]

Other things that would be different (some trivial, other IMHO quite important) in 1959:

• Spain: is not member og NATO nor EEC, being quite isolationist
• France: de Gaulle in power and fighting Algerian insurgency in1959. Internal unrest in 1969. IMHO less likely to remain neutral in 1959, not sure in 1969.
• Israel: quite smaller, Not sure about its nuclear weapons in 1959. Weaker nuclear power in 1969.
• Iran: a close US allied (more so than Saudi Arabia in both 1959 and 1969).
• Latin America (as hinted by Sir Brad). Castro has just risen to power in Cuba (in 1959). Probably URSS support would have been different if they were involved in fighting in Korea (maybe they can spare less, maybe they give it more priority just to concern the US by 1968). Not sure URSS would have backed down from Cuban Missile Crisis if there ws such a tension in Korea, nor about US being so strong in its actions there. Some other countries are starting their own gerrillas in1959, and more or less at their peack in 1968-69

Of all this, I guess Spain is the most trivial, but the situation in Middle East would be quite different from oficial T2K setting (with a weaker Israel and Saudi Arabia and a stronger Iran as US allies, and the Gulf being a pro-US basin. South America will probably be enogulfed in internal insurgecies and (to the greater picture) probably more or less neutralized.

 

[Sir Brad]

France may be pushed in neutrality if in '69 they have a Home Front problem. there could be a covert deal between the French and the Sov's, France declares neutrality and the USSR doesn't directly support the Socialist Activism taking place in France.

 

[Golan2072]

Other things that would be different (some trivial, other IMHO quite important) in 1959:

• Israel: quite smaller, Not sure about its nuclear weapons in 1959. Weaker nuclear power in 1969.

In 1959, according to foreign press, Israel did not have nuclear weapons yet, but it had, again according to foreign press, a nuclear program. In 1968 it might have had a certain nuclear capacity, though not necessarily anything major.

In 1959, Israel is inside the French and British sphere of influence, and is pretty cohesive politically and strong militarily. In 1969, Israel is at the height of its power and self-confidence, having steamrolled three Arab armies a mere two years before that. Syria and Egypt not to mention Jordan) won't be ready to fight the IDF by then, it took them 6 years of massive re-arming and re-training to really challenge it in 1973... In 1969, the Labour Party is at the zenith of its power and popularity and the IDF is celebrated as invincible by the Israeli public. All of this collapsed in 1973.

 

[McPerth]

France may be pushed in neutrality if in '69 they have a Home Front problem. there could be a covert deal between the French and the Sov's, France declares neutrality and the USSR doesn't directly support the Socialist Activism taking place in France.

OTOH, a foreign war could be seen as a distraction for the home front, as has passed many times (to avoid real world examples that could lead to political discusion, if you've ever played Dictador spectrum game in the 1980's, declare war to enemy country was a nice way to distract internal public opinión and rise you popularity).

IMHO both options are quite posible, but your timeline is more coherent for the post twilight war situation to be closer to T2K...

In 1959, according to foreign press, Israel did not have nuclear weapons yet, but it had, again according to foreign press, a nuclear program. In 1968 it might have had a certain nuclear capacity, though not necessarily anything major.

In 1959, Israel is inside the French and British sphere of influence, and is pretty cohesive politically and strong militarily. In 1969, Israel is at the height of its power and self-confidence, having steamrolled three Arab armies a mere two years before that. Syria and Egypt not to mention Jordan) won't be ready to fight the IDF by then, it took them 6 years of massive re-arming and re-training to really challenge it in 1973... In 1969, the Labour Party is at the zenith of its power and popularity and the IDF is celebrated as invincible by the Israeli public. All of this collapsed in 1973.

As tensions have been growing since 1959 in this scenario (or so I understand), I wonder if USSR had not armed better its arabian allies (more so after 1958 Suez crisis, that alienated Egypt from the west) and if 1967 war could have been posible in this situation...

More things I forgot:

• In T2K, the war begins as a China-USSR conflicto and the fact Germany dares to be so hawkish (and drags other NATO powers to war) is in no small part due to Chinese meat grinder having forced USSR to take some (most?) their A class divisions from East Europe. In your scenario, with a second Korean war in 1959 (whose outcome you didn't tell us and may have influence) and a less developed China, I have serious doubts this war could occur.
• Related to previous point; if the China-USSR war occurs, I also wonder if the Soviets could have the strong reaction they historically did against the Czech 1968 spring.
• In 1969, USSR did have quite a smaller fleet (the Kirovs were still not there, submarine fleet was quite smaller, etc...), and NATO fleets would have had sea supremacy (or near so).
• Also, in 1969 there did not exist the extensive reccon satellites networks that existed in the 90's (though there were altready some of them). This would have a strong effect in the fleet actions (where NATO reccon in the Atlantic would have been quite better than the USSR, due to closer bases and larger fleet) and would have given less warning time to the missiles launching, probably leading both leaderships to massive strikes (out of fear the enemy does it) instead of the sustained small strikes given in T2K background

IMHO, all of this would make the war developement quite diferent from T2K one, and probably aftermath would also be different, though not less interesting as gaming background...

 

[Major B]

One idea I had was to start Twilight 2.2 et al in the fifties with a alternate space race. WWIII doesn't start until '68 during the 'Prague Spring, no Viet Nam War but there is a Second Korean War in'59 to start things off. Little things like Elvis staying in the army and the ONTOS fitted with Davy Crocketts.

Perhaps you could start your alternate timeline in 1956.

If Western reaction to the crackdown in Hungary were somewhat more forceful, emboldened Hungarian dissidents resist mor forcefully and longer, and the Soviet response is even more forceful. While ul;timately successful, the USSR loses more credibility.

As a result, the USSR seeks a chance to show its supremacy and incites a guerilla uprising in South Korea. NKPA infiltrators and weapons caches are in place and in 1959 touch off what they portray to the world as local unrest. FECOM holds back but the South Korean crackdown is swift and brutal bringing China in to support the USSR and North Korea into crossing the DMZ.

While both China and the USSR are also supporting the Vietnamese Communists, all players are more focused on Korea so the French are able to maintain control though fighting continues at a low level with other allies drawn in to assist.

Fighting on the Korean Penisula, with little room for maneuver, turns into a war of attrition. This war may also eventually wind down to an inconclusive result or continue at a medium boil while tensions elsewhere escalate.

Maybe this stretches plausibility too much but I hope some of the ideas I've outlined help.

 

[BlackBat242]

Not to mention the Suez crisis in 1956 - perhaps Eisenhower decides to focus on Hungary and ignore the British/French/Israeli action in Egypt instead of ignoring Hungary in favor opposing BFI over their seizure of the Suez Canal and using economic & political pressure to force the return of the Canal to Egypt.

That way BFI retain control of the Canal, and the moderately USSR-backed Egypt moves deeper into the C-bloc in an attempt to retake the Canal militarily... and the Muddle East becomes a "hot" theatre involving NATO and Russian troops supporting their respective sides - to go along with the "re-ignited Korean War".

 

[Major B]

Not to mention the Suez crisis in 1956 - perhaps Eisenhower decides to focus on Hungary and ignore the British/French/Israeli action in Egypt instead of ignoring Hungary in favor opposing BFI over their seizure of the Suez Canal and using economic & political pressure to force the return of the Canal to Egypt.

That way BFI retain control of the Canal, and the moderately USSR-backed Egypt moves deeper into the C-bloc in an attempt to retake the Canal militarily... and the Muddle East becomes a "hot" theatre involving NATO and Russian troops supporting their respective sides - to go along with the "re-ignited Korean War".

That dovetails nicely.

An additional thread to add to the developing plot is the U2 incident which (according to wikipedia at least) really began in 1956 and culminated in the shoot down of Francis Powers in 1960.

Soviet intelligence was aware of encroaching U-2 flights since 1956 but lacked effective countermeasures until 1960.

Just something else that adds to the tension between the two blocs.

 

[scottscane]

All excellent ideas, thank you.

The timeline will start in 1945 with changes, the campaign would start in 1959.

I wanted different tech development post-war:

A 'Goddard-Hughes Rocket Company' that speeds the Space Race and more independent from the government-to get that Heinlein-esque SSTO theme along with Colliers/Bonestell/von Braun/Ley vision. Cheaper for the government and they get to 'tag-along'.

Keep the innovative things we did during WWII-Massive recycling system, women in the workplace, racial equality, sexual revolution all boosted forward during the Hot/Cold post-war years.

Armed Forces not radically downsized due to a 4th Reich presence and Sov/US relations far, far worse.(I know, not realistic due to economic/manpower issues alone but I want more UN 'police actions' with the Sov boycott of the UN by Stalin's orders.)

Closer Sov/China ties to bring China up to speed as a bigger threat.

Post-war European recovery slowed due to Socialist/Democratic unrest, culminating in Civil War in some countries.

Hot/Cold War espionage ramped up.

Alternate political, celebrity and social thinkers arise. Betty Paige is a movie star, JFK marries Marylin Monroe, Elvis in the Army. McCarthy a Soviet Spy. Plan on having fun with this.

Great Britain/Commonwealth recovery much better. Able to enter the Space Race. France the core of non-aligned nation group. Tryng to form a coaltion Europa to stand firm against both sides of the Hot/Cold War.

Africa, Asia and parts of South America are all points of conflict from external and internal threats. Agitprop to unrest coupled with uneven economics to revolution and civil war.

The Mid-East I would actually like it to be a shining light in a see of darkness-somehow.....tired of the endless conflict there...why not?

I have a massive book-The Timetables Of History which I'm slowly going through to get a outline of what I want to show.

Other things-

US Army to use the PENTOMIC TOE(5-brigade group division) for active divisions and the PENTANA TOE(8000-man air-portable light motorised divisions to be rounded out at POMCUS sites or in the field) for the National Guard.
Assault rifle developed for elite units only. Need a lighter Battle rifle for every faction. Need better versions of SKS/M14/FNFAL for everyone. I want the M2 Carbine in .256 WinMag(if better than 5.56mm ?). Warsaw Pact has Czech Skorpions, our troops the MAC-10(both improved).
Either different tank/afv families or radically improved ones. A T-44 that works to a M60A2 Starship that works or some of those designs that didn't make it-Soviet 'Troya' tank and MBT-70 pushed ahead.
A Red Chinese motorised infantry/armored cavalry/tank horde army TOE that can frighten everyone. Yes, every T34-85/T-44/T54 tank in the world comin' atchu!!!
Women fighter pilots/astro-cosmonauts/tankers/scientists/engineers. None of this 'what do you know-you're a woman'-crap. nice outfits...
Advanced tube technology vs. Advanced transistor tech-would that work?
Missiles-every motherlovin'type-BOMARC/REGULUS etc. DART also)
More Atomic power development(needed in postwar Europe and uplifting third world allies). Early groundwork for Fusion breakthru.
Bombers instead of ICBMs-99% of rocketry work for the Space Race-that means the B36/Tu-Bears et al see action and alternate designs are followed thru). Sanger-style Rocket plane along with capsule development.
Space Stations first priority to landing on the Moon(Mil and Intel reasons alone spur this).

Well, so far try to make these possible. Criticisms/embellishments/reality crushing accepted gleefully.

more later, thanks.

 

[Major B]

Here are a couple of thoughts:

Armed Forces not radically downsized due to a 4th Reich presence and Sov/US relations far, far worse.(I know, not realistic due to economic/manpower issues alone but I want more UN 'police actions' with the Sov boycott of the UN by Stalin's orders.)

Not so implausible as all that given the increased level of tension you've posited. 4th Reich (?) seems to break my suspension of disbelief though.

Great Britain/Commonwealth recovery much better. Able to enter the Space Race. France the core of non-aligned nation group. Tryng to form a coaltion Europa to stand firm against both sides of the Hot/Cold War.

Given the above and the western need for more troops, France breaks away due to their disagreement over rearming the Germans. Maybe that conflicts with the 4th Reich though.

The Mid-East I would actually like it to be a shining light in a see of darkness-somehow.....tired of the endless conflict there...why not?

PM if you want feedback to this one. I am afraid posting my thoughts could push this thread into the pit or lock it.

US Army to use the PENTOMIC TOE(5-brigade group division) for active divisions and the PENTANA TOE(8000-man air-portable light motorised divisions to be rounded out at POMCUS sites or in the field) for the National Guard.

Anything is better than the Pentomic Division. That idea was a bust. Stick to the triangular structure.

Assault rifle developed for elite units only. Need a lighter Battle rifle for every faction. Need better versions of SKS/M14/FNFAL for everyone. I want the M2 Carbine in .256 WinMag(if better than 5.56mm ?). Warsaw Pact has Czech Skorpions, our troops the MAC-10(both improved).

Why not stay with the M3 Grease Gun rather than the MAC-10. The M3 was a great weapon.

Either different tank/afv families or radically improved ones. A T-44 that works to a M60A2 Starship that works or some of those designs that didn't make it-Soviet 'Troya' tank and MBT-70 pushed ahead.

I have some ideas on that but have to look them up to make sure I don't mix up the nomenclatures.

 

[scottscane]

4th Reich exists due to Vilani infiltration and TL-spillover IF I decide to use TNE/TW2K crossover-could explain tech advances for everybody. Not sure yet to go with this, too much real world to change or slightly alter.(nothing written in stone yet).

Germany Demilitarised Zone instead of The Wall? Would that work?...nah, too much Morgenthau. West&East Germany militarised, France does better politically and economically with all other European countries that are against this. France could moderate tensions with Greece and Turkey, help Italy, Spain-don't know yet. So there would be a big NATO(US, Britain(CW), Germany and a little NATO, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey and a somewhat changed Spain with the Low Countries working with both-cumbersome but do-able.
Warsaw Pact-SU better at building them up this time, KGB/GRU better at determining and acting on real threats.

PENTOMIC org had problems with not enough infantry and artillery issues, these can be fixed. They're geared for depth and dispersal in case of nukefire. That's why I wanted to retain them. PENTANA used because that's the only org that won't draw off labor the economy needs like WWII did.

MAC10 was considered as a replacement for the M1911 when it came out. I only wanted it for tankers, pilots, rear area, HQ etc. I figure a para-M2 autocarbine in a better caliber would eventually replace the M3 Greasegun.
Other suggestions for armaments gleefully accepted. The era is in flux, all types would be around, I just need a locked down progression without Amalite and AK's dominating. Just want to be different.

AFV's- real bunch of choices, still looking. Want different and elegant.

Aircraft-think of rejected designs that you think are cool and SHOULD have worked-I like the F7U Cutlass: real world engine and avionics sucked but what-if? I saw a jet version of a WWII IL10 Shturmovik-why not? Ideas?

Gyrojet breakthrough in the '60's but only good for space and underwater.

still readin'. go with it.

 

[BlackBat242]

In the late 1940s-early 1950s, Britain wanted to replace the .303 with a better round, and chose the .280 British. They even had a nice bullpup-design selective-fire rifle designed to use it (EM-2, nominally adopted for British service as "Rifle, Automatic, caliber .280, Number 9 Mark 1" in 1951).

But the US demanded that NATO adopt the .308 (7.52x51), so the Brits went along - only for the US to then decide that the .308 ammo weighed too much, and was too powerful to use in a full-auto infantry rifle (M-14), so something smaller was needed - leading to the 5.56x45 (.223 Remington with 56 grain "fragmenting" bullet) and the AR-15 (in 1977 NATO adopted the 5.56x45, but with a longer 62 grain "reduced-fragmentation" bullet, making it incompatible with civilian .223Rem. rifles).

What if the Brits convinced NATO to adopt the EM-2/7x43mm* combo instead - and the US gives in and adopts both to save design/development funds (but all US-used weapons & ammo would, of course, be manufactured in the US)?


* actually, .284/7.22x43mm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/brit/enfield-em-2-e.html

http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/12/for-those-who-think-that-the-280-british-and-the-276-pedersen-were-pipsqueak-cartridges-in-compariso.html

armchairgeneral.com/forums Would NATO be better off had we adopted the British .280(7x43mm) in 1950's?

 

[Enoff]

Foxbats over Dimona - The Soviets' Nuclear Gamble in the Six-Day War

Contrary to previous interpretations, Ginor and Remez’s book shows that the Six-Day War was the result of a joint Soviet-Arab gambit to provoke Israel into a preemptive attack. The authors reveal how the Soviets received a secret Israeli message indicating that Israel, despite its official ambiguity, was about to acquire nuclear weapons. Determined to destroy Israel’s nuclear program before it could produce an atomic bomb, the Soviets then began preparing for war--well before Moscow accused Israel of offensive intent, the overt trigger of the crisis.

Ginor and Remez’s startling account details how the Soviet-Arab onslaught was to be unleashed once Israel had been drawn into action and was branded as the aggressor. The Soviets had submarine-based nuclear missiles poised for use against Israel in case it already possessed and tried to use an atomic device, and the USSR prepared and actually began a marine landing on Israel’s shores backed by strategic bombers and fighter squadrons. They sent their most advanced, still-secret aircraft, the MiG-25 Foxbat, on provocative sorties over Israel’s Dimona nuclear complex to prepare the planned attack on it, and to scare Israel into making the first strike. It was only the unpredicted devastation of Israel’s response that narrowly thwarted the Soviet design.

 

[Enoff]

I thought from Aramis's post we were clear to talk about things till 1970?

 

[aramis]

I thought from Aramis's post we were clear to talk about things till 1970?

And he crossed that line. He's getting infracted. When waivers are granted, they're zero tolerance. If the post had been run by a mod first, it would have been possible the extension might have been raised further.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Hey now...

All excellent ideas, thank you.

The timeline will start in 1945 with changes, the campaign would start in 1959.

I wanted different tech development post-war:

A 'Goddard-Hughes Rocket Company' that speeds the Space Race and more independent from the government-to get that Heinlein-esque SSTO theme along with Colliers/Bonestell/von Braun/Ley vision. Cheaper for the government and they get to 'tag-along'.

Keep the innovative things we did during WWII-Massive recycling system, women in the workplace, racial equality, sexual revolution all boosted forward during the Hot/Cold post-war years.

Armed Forces not radically downsized due to a 4th Reich presence and Sov/US relations far, far worse.(I know, not realistic due to economic/manpower issues alone but I want more UN 'police actions' with the Sov boycott of the UN by Stalin's orders.)

Closer Sov/China ties to bring China up to speed as a bigger threat.

Post-war European recovery slowed due to Socialist/Democratic unrest, culminating in Civil War in some countries.

Hot/Cold War espionage ramped up.

Alternate political, celebrity and social thinkers arise. Betty Paige is a movie star, JFK marries Marylin Monroe, Elvis in the Army. McCarthy a Soviet Spy. Plan on having fun with this.

Great Britain/Commonwealth recovery much better. Able to enter the Space Race. France the core of non-aligned nation group. Tryng to form a coaltion Europa to stand firm against both sides of the Hot/Cold War.

Africa, Asia and parts of South America are all points of conflict from external and internal threats. Agitprop to unrest coupled with uneven economics to revolution and civil war.

The Mid-East I would actually like it to be a shining light in a see of darkness-somehow.....tired of the endless conflict there...why not?

I have a massive book-The Timetables Of History which I'm slowly going through to get a outline of what I want to show.

Other things-

US Army to use the PENTOMIC TOE(5-brigade group division) for active divisions and the PENTANA TOE(8000-man air-portable light motorised divisions to be rounded out at POMCUS sites or in the field) for the National Guard.
Assault rifle developed for elite units only. Need a lighter Battle rifle for every faction. Need better versions of SKS/M14/FNFAL for everyone. I want the M2 Carbine in .256 WinMag(if better than 5.56mm ?). Warsaw Pact has Czech Skorpions, our troops the MAC-10(both improved).
Either different tank/afv families or radically improved ones. A T-44 that works to a M60A2 Starship that works or some of those designs that didn't make it-Soviet 'Troya' tank and MBT-70 pushed ahead.
A Red Chinese motorised infantry/armored cavalry/tank horde army TOE that can frighten everyone. Yes, every T34-85/T-44/T54 tank in the world comin' atchu!!!
Women fighter pilots/astro-cosmonauts/tankers/scientists/engineers. None of this 'what do you know-you're a woman'-crap. nice outfits...
Advanced tube technology vs. Advanced transistor tech-would that work?
Missiles-every motherlovin'type-BOMARC/REGULUS etc. DART also)
More Atomic power development(needed in postwar Europe and uplifting third world allies). Early groundwork for Fusion breakthru.
Bombers instead of ICBMs-99% of rocketry work for the Space Race-that means the B36/Tu-Bears et al see action and alternate designs are followed thru). Sanger-style Rocket plane along with capsule development.
Space Stations first priority to landing on the Moon(Mil and Intel reasons alone spur this).

Well, so far try to make these possible. Criticisms/embellishments/reality crushing accepted gleefully.

more later, thanks.

Well. Up to and excepting the bold bit, I like it.

Now, as a still proud Wisconsinite I, on behalf of my deceased Senator from the Great State of Wisconsin protest the accusation that old "Tailgunner" Joe McCarthy was a Soviet agent. While I am shamed by his actions with the HUAC, I must keep his Honor as he reminded this Nation once when faced with the choice to use bad methods to secure intel that do that was to become what we had just fought to destroy.

Now, as an older more experienced and knowledgable and even wiser human adult, he was awful vehement about his anti-communism...perhaps the Lord doth protest too much?

Nice stuff. It looks cool and hell we still get our much cool Nike-Atlas or was it Ajax base where that annoying Festival Ground is now. Man those were some cool missiles. Liking that part a lot, also digging the USA moving closer to being our ideals, not just talking them.

Yep, all cool and then things go horribly wrong...