Sources for sector information

[daryen]

Sorry for the flurry of topics lately.

I am looking for the sources for some sector data on the Spinward Marches, Deneb, Trojan Reaches, and Reft. I am specifically interested in pre-Rebellion, post-5FW data.

Spinward Marches is easy, if somewhat aggrevating. I have the Regency Sourcebook and the Imperial Encyclopedia. (Those are the relevant sources; I am ignoring the earlier stuff.) I am half-way through the sector, and there is a surprising number of inconsistencies. (Not including the revisions to the stellar data in RS.)

Where else were the UWPs published? The only other book I know of is the Spinward Marches Campaign, which (I believe) is identical to the information in the Imperial Encyclopedia, with the exception of the allegiance codes where the Aslan "took over".

Deneb is a little more problematic. I have a full set of UWPs in RS, but it is post-Rebellion. All of the source files I find on the web are post-Rebellion (i.e. "Dd") rather than pre-Rebellion (i.e. "Im"). What I specifically need are the original allegiance codes before the Vargr "invaded" and took over some of the worlds.

Reft is probably the easiest. The Islands are well defined, and the rest is pretty much Imperial. Was it ever published outside RS and TD20?

Trojan Reaches are problematic. Some of it is covered in RS, and I also have much of what was published in Third Imperium. Was it ever published outside those two sources, Adv4, and TD20?

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

 

[mike wightman]

The DGP MT Journals had the UPPs for the whole of the Domain of Deneb, but in post Rebellion format.
That's the only other source I know of.

 

[daryen]

Out of curiousity, did it deviate any from what was shown as the "old" data in the Regency Sourcebook?

 

[Malenfant]

Well, CT supplement 3 was where the UWPs for the Spinward Marches came from, as far as I know. I dunno if that predates or postdates the Spinward Marches Campaign book. CT Supp 3 didn't have any stellar data in it though, obviously (since it came well before Scouts).

 

[alanb]

Supplement 3 preceded Spinward Marches Campaign. A few worlds have different allegiances, mainly because the Federation of Arden didn't explicitly exist in Supp 3. Arden was simply shown as a non-aligned world with a couple of colonies, IIRC. Similarly, there is a world down towards 5 Sisters that has a colony, which wasn't identified as a distinct interstellar state until GT: Behind the Claw(!). There were also the border changes that occurred during the FFW, which are reflected in SMC.

Atlas of the Imperium gave pre-FFW allegiances and starport classes for all the worlds in the area you are looking at, but no UWPs. You should be able to combine that data with the other sources you have to complete Deneb and Reft.

An additional subsector in Trojan Reach, beyond those in Regency Sourcebook, was published in Adventure 4: Leviathan.

So, that's the "hard", published GDW canon. Of course, you won't necessarily have access to it all.

 

[Malenfant]

So really, it's high time someone (*cough*QLI*cough*) did a definitive, correct, supersedes-every-previous-book version of the Spinward Marches, right?

 

[flykiller]

So really, it's high time someone (*cough*QLI*cough*) did a definitive, correct, supersedes-every-previous-book version of the Spinward Marches, right?

isn't that what the tml landgrab is for?

 

[Malenfant]

not that I know of... I thought that was just random people writing random writeups on random worlds. i.e. nothing official.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So really, it's high time someone (*cough*QLI*cough*) did a definitive, correct, supersedes-every-previous-book version of the Spinward Marches, right?

You know, maybe they should ...

 

[Elliot]

Daryen here is a list of sources I published in an earlier post - It covers all the approved for use stuff in my collection except the Keith stuff which is elsewhere, so I haven't been able to add that.

Core (Library Data + Subsector G: Core) – TD8
Core (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector I: Bunkeria, Subsector J: Cemplas) – TD9
Core (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector M: Cadion, Subsector K: Chant) – TD10
Corridor – TD18
Daibei (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector N: Hermes ) – TD15
Dark Nebula (Subsector G: Kilrai’) – TD17
Delphi (Subsector M: Eta-gu) Challenge 45
Deneb – TD19
Diaspora – GDW: Astrogator’s Guide to the Diaspora Sector
Ealiyasiyw – TD18
Gateway – MTJ4
Lishun (Library Data + Subsector F: Masionia) – TD7
Lishun (Library Data, Xboat routes +Subsector I: Shuna) – TD6
Magyar (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector N: Blackjack) – TD14
Old Expanses (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector A: Dethenes) – TD12
Old Expanses (Subsectors M Nicosia/Aubaine, N Oriflame/Sarid, I Thoezennt and J Shenk –
Includes 1201 stats) – GDW: Path of Tears
Massilia – GDW: Knightfall
Reaver’s Deep (Library Data, Xboat routes + Subsector L: Urlaqqash) – TD16
Reft – TD20
Riftspan Reaches – TD19
Solomani Rim – GDW: Supplement
Spinward Marches – GDW: Supplement 3
Trojan Reach – Third Imperium (not ‘canon’), TD20, MTJ3, Parts in Regency Sourcebook
Vland – DGP Vilani and Vargr
Vland (Library Data, Xboat routes +Subsector F: Kagamira) – TD4
Vland (Library Data, Xboat routes +Subsector G: Vland) – TD5#
Zarushagar (Subsector K: Wolf and Sector L: Oasis) – TD21

 

[daryen]

Elliot's post raises a couple of questions:

- Are we *really* to use Supp3 for the Spinward Marches. A lot has been changed and a lot has been added since Supp3.

I have been using the "old" entries in Regency Sourcebook, double checked by Imperial Encyclopedia (there are errors in RS). (I would gleefully use Spinward Marches Campaign, but, alas, I have it not.) I will go into this in more detail in another topic soon, but Supp3 is pretty much irrelevant.

- Are we allowed to use TD at all? TD is pure forbidden canon, and if something only occurs in TD are we allowed to even touch it? Fortunately for me, I won't have to worry too much about it, except for the "extra" data in Trojan Reaches.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Hemdian is trying to tidy up the SM data:

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/data-clean/index.html

 

[daryen]

He and I are going in slightly different directions. There are several reasons for this.

The first reason is that he is taking the oldest data as correct, then going from there. I, instead, am starting with the Regency Sourcebook data, then checking for errors. The reason for this is that they obviously worked hard to clean up the stellar data. Hemdian catagorically rejects that revision.

The second reason is that he is trying to make an online resource. I am trying to do something a bit different.

The third reason, and the reason I can't really even leverage his effort, is that he has done a single subsector in two years. I am trying for a slightly quicker pace.

I do wish I had his Traveller library, though.

 

[Malenfant]

Was stellar data ever published for the SM before the Regency Sourcebook came out? (bear in mind that the stellar data there is still wrong from a realism point of view - but you can fix that with my Revised Stellar Generation Tables)

I really don't understand why many Traveller fans treat the first data source as the one that should be adhered to. Most people elsewhere assume that revisions supersede originals...

 

[far-trader]

Yep, Spinward Marches Campaign had stellar data as part of the extended UWP, generated using book 6 I expect.

It is rather odd that Canon is so sacrosanct but then I guess it wouldn't be if this were say a game rather than a religion

Hey don't shoot me for saying it, I'm a small c canonista myself. Mostly I figure it IS a game and to maintain game balance it's more important to be internally consistant* than realistic. Others, like yourself Malenfant, are equally convinced realism is more important. Neither of us is wrong so much as wrong for the other

* though Traveller often fails at this too

 

[daryen]

My goal right at this moment is to simply compile the "real" and "official" data as best as I can determine it. Like I mentioned before, I will start up a discussion later to go over some of the discrepancies and try and get some input on it.

A side effort of this that I intend on doing is to take the resulting Spinward Marches and make it more "realistic". However, I want to make sure I have finished with the first effort first. (And while I want to make pre-Rebellion versions of the whole Domain, I will only be making a "corrected" version of the Marches.)

And when I do start on the "corrected" Marches, I will definitely be calling for your name, Malenfant! The things I want to fix are:
- stellar data
- size vs atmosphere data
- starport vs pop/TL data
- jump routes
while making as few changes as possible.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"The first reason is that he is taking the oldest data as correct, then going from there."

Only where later data is obviously wrong. Look at the examples.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by daryen:
The things I want to fix are:
(...)
- size vs atmosphere data
(...)
while making as few changes as possible.

That's what my "mass quick fix" I posted in another thread is all about.

 

[Flynn]

Presumably, this is the original data for the Spinward Marches, as posted to the Genie/Sunbane boards in the early days of GDW. It does contain stellar data:
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/old_sectors/spinward.txt

More info can be found on the GENie/Sunbane sectors here:
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/old_sectors/

Presumably, here are the raw files originally created for the other sectors in that domain:
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/old_sectors/deneb.txt

http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/old_sectors/reft.txt

http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/old_sectors/trojan.txt

Dunno if it helps, but there it is,
Flynn

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by daryen:
The things I want to fix are:
- stellar data

Well, that's fixable already

- size vs atmosphere data

Working on it. It's taking time, but I'm working on it...

- starport vs pop/TL data
- jump routes

This stuff I'm more fuzzy on (physical UWP is my speciality) but I'm sure I can help as much as anyone else could

.