Solomani Preserve?

[mike wightman]

Our 'prejudices' are mostly due to the continuous fanon trope that they are uplifted dogs and have dog like traits.

They were uplifted from wolves three hundred thousand years ago. We know they have evolved in various ways from their proto-Vargr ancestors.

 

[Condottiere]

I believe the Vilani also bred certain characteristics in to domesticate nearby tribes.

 

[mike wightman]

Evidence? Or yet another example of the fanon dog trope?

 

[GypsyComet]

The material on the Vargr in Julian space suggests that they are subject to the domestication effect to some degree. Charisma has been rendered less important in some areas through the Panet relationship that basically pairs young humans and Vargr for life, or attempts to. The floppy-eared Vargr in Flaming Eye is the same subgroup, IIRC.

Whether this is the result of a concerted effort to "domesticate" the Vargr or more indicative of what an extra thousand years of peaceful contact may do to them with no real direction or effort is not addressed, and probably shouldn't be. The Vargr of the Julian region have also proven extremely resilient to more adverse situations, so it is also possible that the friendly and floppy eared aspect is just part of the natural genetic drift over 300,000 years.

That said, I suspect that some Vargr were still in uplift mode when Grandfather's War began, and have remained highly pliable and adaptable as a result. I think those switches were eventually evolved out or modern genetic research would have found them, but the Vargr were primed to diversify.

 

[mike wightman]

'Domesticating' humans by the Vargr is another way to explain the Jullian success against the Third Imperium... humans adapted to Vargr society and effectively are domesticated humans to Vargr.

Humans have been evolving and diversifying since the time of the Ancients, are 57th century humans still being 'domesticated' by Vargr or Hivers or Aslan?

Note - the Hive federation nukes whole planets to hide their domestication of humans, and humans within Aslan space become domesticated to Aslan cultural norms, just as Aslan within Darrian/Imperial space become domesticated to Third Imperium cultural norms.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, wolves are more like dogs than you think. They just happen to have this radical streak of independence that dogs tend to lack. In experiments, when confronted with a problem, dogs will try to figure out a solution, but tend to look to humans for help. Wolves on the other hand ignore humans and try to figure out how to get at that treat the scientists of laid on the other side of some plexiglass wall.

To stay on topic, I guess a Soli preserve out in Vargr space isn't out of the question, but given the wolfish nature of most Vargr, to me, it seems fairly dicey. The Nordic types in GT form the basis for the Sword Worlds, so why not ,,, I don't know, South Americans or various Asian for this preserve?

Not to toot my own horn, but in my fiction thread I wrote Vash as a "Vargr neutral" character. That is to say he doesn't exhibit his Vargrness unless pushed into a corner. And I think that's true of most people. If you travel to any part of the globe conflict is pretty much the same everywhere, but its flavor may be colored by local custom. I think for Vargr there is a genetic component because they are a different species, and I think depending on how much wolf like inclinations you run your game, to me, puts a damper on humans integrating into deep regions of Vargr space. I base that on some docs on wolves I've seen where wolf "owners" have been attacked and killed by their own animals. I think the same dynamic might be found beyond the border worlds at the coreward Imperial frontier.

I don't know. Just tossing out ideas here.

 

[GypsyComet]

'Domesticating' humans by the Vargr is...

Entirely the wrong term, I think. Humans are not now or at any discernable point ever have been mono-cultural. There is no "wild mode" to bring Humanity into the cave from. We've always adapted, often at blinding speed, to new situations. Cultural adaption isn't "domestication".

The K'kree force breeding a biologically herbivorous branch of Humaniti would qualify, but the sort of morphological changes seen in canines and pigs, and bred into cattle, sheep, and chicken, are not something we have any evidence of in Traveller wrt Humans.

 

[mike wightman]

Entirely the wrong term, I think. Humans are not now or at any discernable point ever have been mono-cultural.

And right there is the problem because the majority of fanon considers all alien races to be mono-cultural - despite all the evidence to the contrary. None of the Traveller 'alien' races are 'mono-cultural'.

There is no "wild mode" to bring Humanity into the cave from. We've always adapted, often at blinding speed, to new situations. Cultural adaption isn't "domestication".

Spoken like a true Solomani...
so the Vargr can't adapt, the Aslan can't adapt, the Hivers can't adapt - only the racially superior Humans can adapt.
Human Aslan consider themselves Aslan...

The K'kree force breeding a biologically herbivorous branch of Humaniti would qualify, but the sort of morphological changes seen in canines and pigs, and bred into cattle, sheep, and chicken, are not something we have any evidence of in Traveller wrt Humans.

Nor with Vargr...

 

[Condottiere]

Almost all fiction reverts to tropes, except those that subvert expectations.

Since I tend to get the Native American vibe from the Aslan, going native or bringing up humans as noble savages is a fairly easy step to take.

 

[BRJN]

Humans have been evolving and diversifying since the time of the Ancients, are 57th century humans still being 'domesticated' by Vargr or Hivers or Aslan?

I think the word you are searching for is 'acculturated'?

 

[GypsyComet]

Nor with Vargr...

Oh, I think we've seen *evidence*, but not enough to establish *truth*. And that's perfectly fine. Wiggle room that a campaign can make use of without compromising the published baseline is an ideal state, IMO.

so the Vargr can't adapt, the Aslan can't adapt, the Hivers can't adapt - only the racially superior Humans can adapt.

The Vargr can and do. The evidence is all over the map.
The Aslan can and do, as documented in every version of them (except possibly Mongoose, haven't slogged through that one recently). The main body of the Aslan are portrayed as not liking that adaption AT ALL, but most of the time they put up with it if it occurs where they don't have to see it.
Hivers are weird. They engineer and maintain genetic homogeneity, and *expect* that to produce cultural homogeneity. While we value diversity internally, the Hivers see internal diversity as dangerous but have less issue with external diversity. Their polity is probably second only to Imperial space in terms of being species diverse. They adapt differently than we do, but they do adapt.
The K'kree are *violently* monocultural and more successful at it than even the Aslan. At least, that's what they want outsiders and their own citizens to think. I'm not convinced.

Only Terrans and the Vargr undertook spaceflight and empire building from a divided position. The other Major Races were all culturally unified when they developed Jump Drive and expanded. The Zhodani had been through a significant population bottleneck worse than the Black Plague in recent and recorded history when they attained space the second time, the Aslan had just backed away from an extinction level nuclear conflict, and the K'kree had just unified in what they thought was the face of extinction. They have reasons for being monocultural, while a thousand years of war and another 1800 years of diaspora and isolation has led the Vilani and Terrans to become localized. NONE of the other major races were affected by the Long Night that way because they didn't have the same Long Night, or one at all.

So while Terrans/Solomani and the Vargr are recognized as mavericks sociologically, that isn't necessarily seen as an advantage by the others. We're the *weird* ones.

 

[mike wightman]

Viewing any of the major or minor races as monocultural is a bit too simplistic for me.

The Aslan. for example, are not culturally unified. Every clan is subtly different from the others. Across all the clans there is significant difference - even the term clan may not be appropriate for some of their cultural groups, it is an Imperial designation in order for the Impies to pigeonhole them.

Nor were the Aslan culturally unified when they 'developed' jump drive. The various cultural groups were waging wars with each other.

The view that the alien races are monocultural is because that is how Imperial propaganda paints them.

Vargr, Aslan etc looking into the Imperium would view it as monocultural and paint a picture of 'typical' human traits.

Interesting discussion.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Wolf-Human Natural Communication

Well, wolves are more like dogs than you think.

Seems a good place to mention a news article that I read maybe a month ago, about some research in which wolf cubs were raised by human families just as if they were dogs. The researchers found that - like dogs - the wolves had some instinctive interaction with humans that other animals do not have. They would follow human hand gestures such as pointing, and would study human faces and react to the emotions displayed. I don't recall their methodology for separating instinctive wolf behavior from what might be learned being raised by humans. The researchers' conclusion was that some of what we view as domesticated dog behavior already existed in wild wolves before humans ever began the domestication process that led to dogs. This natural affinity between wolves and humans may have enabled informal partnerships in hunting that were the beginnings of domestication. Sehr interresant!

*

EDIT: Here's the link for that article: Wolves Raised as Dogs.

*

 

[Blue Ghost]

Viewing any of the major or minor races as monocultural is a bit too simplistic for me.

The Aslan. for example, are not culturally unified. Every clan is subtly different from the others. Across all the clans there is significant difference - even the term clan may not be appropriate for some of their cultural groups, it is an Imperial designation in order for the Impies to pigeonhole them.

Nor were the Aslan culturally unified when they 'developed' jump drive. The various cultural groups were waging wars with each other.

The view that the alien races are monocultural is because that is how Imperial propaganda paints them.

Vargr, Aslan etc looking into the Imperium would view it as monocultural and paint a picture of 'typical' human traits.

Interesting discussion.

I do believe the CT Alien Module establishes Aslan as nearly monocultural as you can get. I think their cultural diversity is more akin to Japanese clans during Japan's medieval era. That is to say everyone spoke the same language, had variations on pretty much the same architecture, fashions, weapons, food and the like, but regionally you had different patterns for flags, very minor variations on everyday items, weapons and armor. It is my opinion that they were written up that way intentional to reflect a kind of star faring medieval Japan, and though there's mention of conflicts among clans, I don't ever recall there being a "Sengoku-Jidai" (age of the country at war) for Aslan space. That seems to have been reserved for MT's Rebellion era.

 

[mike wightman]

The Alien modules are written from an Imperial author's viewpoint...

you have to do a lot of reading between the lines to get a truer picture.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Interesting perspectives.

I hope this thread prompts some more good ideas.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't know if it was deliberately intended but the Alien modules, indeed a lot of CT sourcebooks, strike me as using the literary device of the unreliable narrator.

There is the obvious propaganda, not to mention the cultural bias of ten thousand years of oppression in the form of major/minor race distinction.

Considering the number of divergent cultures we have/had have here on Earth with a span of only 12000 years I would consider it ridiculous for the alien races to not also have a rich diversity of cultures.

 

[GypsyComet]

... though there's mention of conflicts among clans, I don't ever recall there being a "Sengoku-Jidai" (age of the country at war) for Aslan space.

The Aslan "Moment of Clarity" came as they avoided extinction by nuclear holocaust and developed their jump drive. The Moment ended fairly quickly once their homeworld was no longer under threat of nuclear reset, but the return to low level warfare with occasional open conflict began as they were vying for control of other systems. Spreading into human Long Night space was bloody, and not just between humans and Aslan.

The Heirate presents itself much like Japan did: culturally unified in all important ways. A veneer of family and Clan specific tradition is certainly present, but they all subscribe to the core values. Whether those are coming from a genetic base or have been imposed through positive AND negative reinforcement in the 2000+ years they've been spacefaring is another matter. The Heirate Ihatei made certain that the Glorious Empire died and was reabsorbed for what most outsiders would consider minor variations from Heirate cultural norms.

That's not to say that Aslan are all the same. There is, by most accounts, still a significant Aslan population in Imperial space, concentrated largely in Daibei. Much like the Vargr in Imperial space, they've adapted. Only the cultural traits driven by genetics are universal amongst those populations; Aslan males feel the drive to own land in their bones, and Vargr siblings and adult "packs" still practice internal stratification via the mechanisms of Charisma. Everything else is subject to adaption.

The patterns across the map of Charted Space are pretty clear, though: Races that have had major division/isolation events tend to be more culturally diverse than those which have been secure and unified for their entire spacefaring existence. This pattern is one of the things that gives the dual whammy of Virus and the Wave so much potential; together they are the population bottleneck at many local levels and the isolation of survivors from each other that lead to rapid cultural drift. Two Major Human races have done this before, and it shows. The Virus and Wave impose it on everyone else.

 

[Condottiere]

In that sense, the Vargr are more like the Japanese, in that they do have a drive to unify, but they're too riven apart by personal self interest.

The vargr have probably tried every form of governance and civilization, but they are inherently unstable, and the Vargr are doomed to rhyme and repeat, having no institutional memory.

The Aslan could be considered Klingons.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Alien modules are written from an Imperial author's viewpoint...

you have to do a lot of reading between the lines to get a truer picture.

I differ with you there. The CT modules are written as game material with a neutral narrative. You might be thinking of the MT Aslan and Solomani AM, which does have a distinctly Aslan narrator telling the reader about Aslan society.