Solomani and Imperial + Other Q's 4 U all?

[solomanidude]

I have been a Traveller player since 1983 and I still use CT and MT as Gurps and D20 systems are not my forte (Old School) but I wanted to post some questions and my opionions on the Solomani and Imperial spheres and ask what people think in these terms and the ideas of T5 as well.

Solomani and SolSec? Ok why does it seem to me the that Mr Miller makes humans from Terra and the Solomani more akin to the Nazi party? After all I highly doubt even in such an event we would ever become this and the Imperium the so called monarchy savior of humaniti?

Whats you views on the Solomani and the Imperium and why does it seem that if your human of terran descent your the underdog? Or more likely you tend towards Nazism and not total control freaks like that of the Monarchy of the Imperium? The Imperium is still a dictatorship akin to Castro and Saddam Hussien....

How does a democratic/representitive republic of a world or system accept IMPERIAL RULE? That logic doesnt make sense because a true Republic as shown through history would either capitulate and become a null government (vichy france)or always continue to fight an oppressive regime occupying them. Earth Surrender? I highly doubt it.

Is it me or my American views suggest that IMPERIAL RULE is much like the British Empire when it was expanding in such places like India and Africa in the 20th Century before WW1 and shortly there after?

Does anyone play the Soloman like they should (more democratic)played? As a Representive Republic who would have a President and Senate with at least 6 and 8 year terms and a military controlled by a joint chiefs of staff much like our militaries of now. Also why is the Imperium using an American only (unique)Purple-Heart while the Solomani use a Blood Crest? We dont recognize Nobility. (duh!) Terrans abandon Purple heart in favor of blood crest and Imperium of Valani or Vegan descent use it? No sense there now is there?

I honeslty don't believe the Solomani would sacrifice Terra much like Mr Miller would have in his game. This is a very unusual view unless your Socialistic? I am not calling him this but I just don't see why the Solomani are the so called "Bad Guys and the Imperium the so called good guys." Are we that stupid we dont have TL16 as Earth is considered TL14? What gives there?


In 1116 the Rebellion starts and in 1117-1118 Sol is actually recaptured and the Solomani pretty much recapture the lost territory. The War drags on for 5 to 10 years then we have a Virus which is pathetic at least and we have new versions of the game since 1986.

Where are we at 1130 to 1136? Where is the Imperium at and what is rightly correct in cannon or for some us the right things to have? We need an alernate Timeline and rules set for this and I think another Solomani booklet. Sorry they need revamped (idealistic American here).

I had it that Strephon wasnt Assassinated but caused the war to ensue because the Empire had became stagnant and he needed a war to increase technologies and the economy. He knew Earth would fall and he knew he needed a cold war with someone and the only people who would fight to a stalemate would be yup! Terrans (Solomani).

By why didnt the Zhodani invade in masse in 1117-1118? They remind me of extreme fundamentalists like bin laden so why didnt they invade and preach there gospel at the tip of the plasma rifle? Just the Solomani and Vargr attacked in force. Still makes no sense to me.


I mean I likes the rules system and that is great and CT with Special Duty rules added and cascade skills like MT round the basic system out. The system could use some new weapons and equipment but other than that they are ok.

But honesly! There is no chance that we would be a Nazi like Solomani in the future. Unless we subcomb to the current french and german ideology then were screwd for sure. The Solomani would be more akin to the Rebellion of Starwars and the Imperium under a Sith emperor. This is where I see a total flip flop in REAL ideaology. Even in a game.... (just my humble opinion guys and girls)

I know to each there own opinion but the rules as I see it should be adaptive and not all one godly course that some of us might not like or agree with. I know its just a game. LOL

But if T5 ever takes off I think it should be a blend of CT and MT rules. I kind of like the CT combat system 8+ and such with a task resolution. I do not care for the striker/MT combat system unless its optional. I like high gaurd and mercenary but feel new weapons and equipment might blend things more. Perhaps a new set of rules on 25mm 30mm and 40mm grenades, antitank weapons, a system of Hitpoints for vehicles like HP for the PC's and perhaps number of skills should be INT+EDU+1/2INT added and a skill level goto 7 or 8 and not 6 and perhaps more psionic disiplines and medical drugs and equipment for the game. I can see even more robots and designs for some niftly booklets like the MT books.

All in all I do love the game not much of the source background though. Nanotech weapons could be neat as well. Yeah I have some ideas for them too.. LOL

I use CT rules with MT special duty rules and cascade skills. I still max them at 6 though and allow max number of skills and equalling INT+EDU plus INT divided by 3 round to whole (max 35) I allow all skills to goto level 6 (yeah thats 210 levels worth)but no PC ever has even achieved this in any campaign I ran or played.

Not to beat on Marc but maybe the introduction of the 2d6 in certain areas for skill rolls and such in Mercenary or High Guard would make them unique.

I like the idea of life pursuits prior to character play but Marc the Solomani need there own rules set non SOLSEC and such (Alternate universe) LOL...

I'd like to hear your critism and praise if any folks. I deal with it everyday.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by SolomaniGuyHere:
Solomani and SolSec? Ok why does it seem to me the that Mr Miller makes humans from Terra and the Solomani more akin to the Nazi party? After all I highly doubt even in such an event we would ever become this and the Imperium the so called monarchy savior of humaniti?

Whats you views on the Solomani and the Imperium and why does it seem that if your human of terran descent your the underdog? Or more likely you tend towards Nazism and not total control freaks like that of the Monarchy of the Imperium? The Imperium is still a dictatorship akin to Castro and Saddam Hussien....

Welcome to these boards!

The Imperium is by no means a "savior of Humaniti"; it is a fusion of Feudalism and highly monopolitic Capitalism, a political chimera forced by the economic conditions of the OTU, especially travel and communication speeds. It serves the interests of the ruling class (corporate-owning nobility), and not, in general "Humaniti". About the Solomani, I personally downplay their Fascist side - I leave fascism for the extreme right-wing faction of the SolParty - I play them closer to how Israel (or France) was in the 1950's, (technically) a democracy with a strong and socially-involved government and with rampart militarism and a very strong national sentiment. They might mistreat other races under their rule, but won't "ethnically cleanse" them unless the extreme right wing faction holds sway on the world (which is RARE). They aren't perfect - no one in the universe is - but they are far better than the Imperium; atleast you can vote in favor of your preferred Party faction (assuming it isn't outlawed).

I honeslty don't believe the Solomani would sacrifice Terra much like Mr Miller would have in his game. This is a very unusual view unless your Socialistic? I am not calling him this but I just don't see why the Solomani are the so called "Bad Guys and the Imperium the so called good guys." Are we that stupid we dont have TL16 as Earth is considered TL14? What gives there?

Why would a Socialistic (and I assume you nean by that Stalinist) state abandon Earth willingly? didn't the USSR fight couragely to defend Stalingrad and Leningrad from the Nazi hordes? The rule of a corrupt bereaucratic clique isn't equal to the rule by cowards, after all... Other than that (and please, leave the "Socialisn vs Capitalism" for the Political Pulpit forum; no need for flamewars here), personally I agree with you - the Solomani would've fought to death to preserve Earth, up to and including "scorched earth". Think Babylon 5's "battle of the Line".

In 1116 the Rebellion starts and in 1117-1118 Sol is actually recaptured and the Solomani pretty much recapture the lost territory. The War drags on for 5 to 10 years then we have a Virus which is pathetic at least and we have new versions of the game since 1986.

Where are we at 1130 to 1136? Where is the Imperium at and what is rightly correct in cannon or for some us the right things to have?

Personally I'm working on an alternate OTU variant in which the Virus was destroyed in it's research station in a huge naval battle between Dulinor and Lucan; Dulinor tried to push forward towards the Capital despite having only a remnant of his "Coronation Fleet", but the sailors, tired from years of war and unwilling to die for Dulinor, revolted. Eventually the Ilelish (sp?) Sector turned into a battleground between Revolution and Counter-Revolution (think France in the 1790's); Lucan controlled his totalitarian state of a few subsectors surrounding the Capital; the Zhodani had their own troubles (see below); Vargr corsairs overrun the Corridor sector; the Spinward Marches became an unstable and decaying remnant of the Imperial past, under Norris, going through limited democratic reforms to prevent a revolution; Margaret's pocket of space becomes an ultra-capitalist corporate state with a few Imperial elenments used as a mask to cover the Corporate rule; the Hivers and K'kree kept to themselves; and the Solomani Confederacy fell to a civil war of itself between the various SolParty factions, with the moderate/left alliance orginizing a revolution on Terra (which they rename "Gaia" due to their alliance to quasi-matriarchal semi-religious elements) and running the social-democratic Gaian Community and the extremists fighting against them and among themselves. The Hard Times continute to the present time of 1138, though a slow recovery is in place around Margaret's faction and in the solomani Rim sector (Gaian Community).

Think East Europe circa 1992 - central authority is dead, having crumbled under its own bureaucratic and totalitarian weight; everyone is at each other's throat; petty dictators have Weapons of Mass Destruction left-over from the now-dead central authority; material conditions are horrible and the economy is in ruinm but slowly recovering in a few places. Hell for the avarage citizen, paradise for mercs, corsairs, merchants and empire-builders, that is, in other words - PCs.

Why didnt the Zhodani invade in masse in 1117-1118? They remind me of extreme fundamentalists like bin laden so why didnt they invade and preach there gospel at the tip of the plasma rifle? Just the Solomani and Vargr attacked in force. Still makes no sense to me.

The Zhodani have been described as quite isolationist; they keep to themselves and their ruling elite has decided that they've reached their optimal polity size. The Frontier Wars were their attempt to secure a buffer zone slong their front with the Imperium. And besides, according to various MegaTraveller books, they are deep in their own religious (?) and political troubles.

And generally, remember that the circumstances in which the Imperium and the Solomani exist - and, especially, the said communication and transportation lag, are radically different from those in which the USA exists today (with instant communications around the planet available to most American citizens).

And, another point, feel free and welcome to develop your own universe from scratch - I've done this (the Hard Times-expanded setting is a side project), and it's loads of fun. Go and build your own universe, go and build your own politics, go and modify the technology - Traveller gives you all the tools you need to build your own universe, and you'll enjoy it for sure.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Especially focus on that next-to-last bit from 2-4601: comm and transport lags. You really have to keep in mind more of an age of sail paradigm when looking at the "politics" of Traveller.

Read around these boards for a bit - you will find plenty of discussions about why the concept (Imperium, piracy, per jump shipping fees, orbital bombardment) would/wouldn't work due to economics, logisitcs, etc. Just don't mention near-c rocks...

Edit: Oh, and somewhere (I think in Lone Star) is a thread talking about etiquette, abbreviations, etc. on these boards. Go read it to get ready, then post away! end edit

 

[kafka47]

I think Marc believes in a future that needs to be written. Much of early Traveller was Rebels Against the Empire. Then as the ambers cooled, the Imperium became a Behemoth rather than a Leviathan. Now, as we progress into MT, we see the sediment for Rebellion flares up again. Then whilst TNE Mk 1 levels everything, it introduces democratic reform into all the institutions that familiar gamers of Traveller thought they knew. T4 does take a step back, in the sense that we do have a monarchic future, but this is balanced with a sense technocratic achievement where merit is rewarded with nobility as much as it is to buy off reluctant planetary governments. Which brings us to the subject of Terra...

GT seems to assert itself in a pro-monarchist vein but also borrows from CT, a possibility of rebellion against the powers that be. Notwithstanding, I still find it the most conservative of all Traveller products.

T20, we have really seen to little of the product line to judge. But, the tension between tyranny and democracy is there but not expressed in a concrete way. Perhaps, when some products turn Rimward we may finally get the answer why the Solomani in CT/MT bad.

Haven't got my copy of 1248 yet, so I don't know what's happening with that milieu.

As to Terra, why assume that all of the Solomani Party is monolithic like the Stalinist parties of the USSR. There are countless factions within the Party each expressing their own point of view and nothing dictates that a world cannot have a multiplicity of parties, so long as they are loyal to some sort of interpretation of the Solomani Cause.

Of course, Marc also needed villains for Traveller - one easy way is to make the enemies that the world cannot stand - Nazis (I wonder if he was influenced by the events in Chicago in the 1970s???). However, as noted above Traveller is about Wheels within Wheels, how Terra came to be under the iron heel (read the short story by Jack London) is in keeping with some of the ethos of Traveller. Lastly, it is to be remember by 1109, Terra is an important world but not the most important world. The Solomani view it as a heimat but more in a spiritual sense ... leaving my theory about clones in the Interstellar Wars still open.

In fact, if memory serves me right, in The Green Hills of Earth, Terra was even not vital for the Solomani government except as a political statement. Then enter the extremists who can be part of any government influenced by one Looney faction of society or another they come to make trouble. Needless to say, SolSec does not have the checks & balances within the organization to prevent the rise of extremists but they have to bide their time, much as mentioned above the parallel with B5 (although, I would also point to PsiCorp subplot).

Furthermore, the Terra that we know, no longer exists it is part of its history but what have we learnt from our predecessor governments in the Western world - democracy is far being the norm - republics and empires dominate. Read the accounts/diaries of German soldiers in WW2, ideology is so intertwined that a parallel with other worlds is frightening. Terra also changed during the period known as the Long Night, where it was hardly a democracy as it was a plutocracy.

In terms of the Zhodani, I think that you have been misreading your CT history. Each "invasion" of the Imperium during the Frontier Wars was to establish a proper boundary line. To suddenly invade the Marches would be foolhardy and risk causing a unification of other factions to defeat the foreign invader. Much as the USSR was a divided state and tittering on the brink of collapse, and WW2 rescued the whole show. The question could also be reversed: why did the Imperium not invade like in the parallel history of TNE - The Crucible War?

Just some thoughts to consider…

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:

The Zhodani have been described as quite isolationist; they keep to themselves and their ruling elite has decided that they've reached their optimal polity size. The Frontier Wars were their attempt to secure a buffer zone slong their front with the Imperium. And besides, according to various MegaTraveller books, they are deep in their own religious (?) and political troubles.

In MT, the Zhodani didn't have any internal troubles. That was all just retconned in (and rather unconvincingly so) with TNE.
The Rebellion sourcebook and other MT sources make it quite clear that the Zhodani strategy so far has been one of containment, not of contest. The Zhodani aren't much interested in increasing the Consulate's size, and if this should at one point become necessary, they have several open frontiers to do so at their leisure. Neither do the Zhodani seem very interested in imposing their culture on others. They know they have a perfect, stable society, and if others don't want that, they are to be pitied.
The Imperium, OTOH, is basically expansionist in nature, has no open frontiers and has a history of aggressively assimilating other cultures into itself. Therefor, it must be contained.
A fractured Imperium is already doing containing itself, so why should the Zhodani interfere? In a worst-case scenario, an Invasion could even rally the Imperials to reunite. Nothing could be less desirable.
Before the Empress Wave retconning, the Zhodani course was clear: Keep out of the Rebellion, lend an occasional helping hand to the Domain of Deneb against Vargr and Aslan invaders, to keep said Domain stable and secure, and otherwise watch while the Imperium destroys itself.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[archhealer]

Also, when the Solomani are portrayed as evil bastards, you might want to take a page from history and see how WE were viewed in Japan and Germany during WWII. Nobody thought we were going to be be nice folk then! It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[solomanidude]

Thanks guys I appreciate your input on the Solomani and the Imperium.

I just want to let you all know that yes I have done my study of history as well as made it. I served in the Navy and saw combat in the First Gulf War then called it a day in 1995.

Then 911 came about and after 7 years I had to recommit to the defense of the homeland in the Army National Guard and now the Army Reserves. I still am a serving member and will retire as such now I guess unless of course I win the PowerBall. LOL

But yes I appreciate all of your view points that make me ask how people played their own campaigns when the Solomani ource books came out. When I purchaed the Solomani Module I liked some of the material but I am sorry I couldn't agree with all of it. So I made the Solomani Confederacy like the Confederaty of the Civil War. Much akin to each system providing a fleet and army force then being led much like Lee led the army of the Confederacy. The National Identity was still what kept the Solomani but each faction did its part to keep the Confederacy together against overwhelming odds. I viewed the Imperial occupation of Terra like that of the occupation of the South.

I hope that makes any sense to anyone here. I am not here to flame anyone ok guys so forgive me if anyone thinks that. But thanks for your input. I have a few posts I'd like to add to this forum if I may. You may find them interesting.

 

[archhealer]

Post away! And I don't think anybody was flaming anybody here, really, just expressing different views of the same topics. After all, if nobody disagreed, this'd be the most boring forum ever.

 

[kafka47]

In MT, the Zhodani didn't have any internal troubles. That was all just retconned in (and rather unconvincingly so) with TNE.

Tobias, I am not sure if I agree with you there. First, I am not sure when the original TAS entry was written and whether it was to point to the Empress Wave. Afterall, we had DGP coming up with "Baddies From the Core" which could have easily become canon, as much as TNE was to become the canon...had GDW and DGP cooperated and cloned (the DGP staff several times over).

Plus, one thing that the 1980s hated was stability and this was reflected in RPGs, as well as the larger society. I really couldn't see GDW not responding to the momentious events of world politics by not extending the great ungluing to the Zhodani Consulate for very long. The Rebellion was also sympatomatic of a larger desire to shake things up. The entry in the Rebellion Sourcebook make the Consulate almost like a benign state. Now, knowing that Marc always had a trick or two up his sleeve, could we count on that stabilty lasting especially as other supplements such as the Cloak & Dagger supplement came into being.

So I made the Solomani Confederacy like the Confederaty of the Civil War. Much akin to each system providing a fleet and army force then being led much like Lee led the army of the Confederacy. The National Identity was still what kept the Solomani but each faction did its part to keep the Confederacy together against overwhelming odds. I viewed the Imperial occupation of Terra like that of the occupation of the South.

The Confederation mirrored in the South...I like it!! But throw it Chicago Nazis who in the 1970s were calling for a racial Civil War and we can begin to see the outlines of Marc's thinking...

The parallels have been explored in countless Alternate Universes SF. Most recently Harry Harrison but also, I think of the Mirror, Mirror thread in Star Trek which I am never sure is meant to mock the original Trek. Afterall, Starfleet is a military organization so full of itself that it cannot concieve as anything but itself. The Other is constantly victimized and belittled. Mirror, Mirror episodes just show the Federation for what it is...a transcendental Empire.

In this light, has anyone experimented with a Mirror Traveller Universe, if so, please share.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Tobias, I am not sure if I agree with you there. First, I am not sure when the original TAS entry was written and whether it was to point to the Empress Wave.

There is no evidence to support it was. Actually, if you read it in a context with the RS article, it can be argued that it might have indicated the Zhodani backing off from the border to make the DoD feel safer. I see how it could also seen as conflicting with other MT material, though, seeing as how the TNS was basically the only remaining GDW input into the Traveller timeline.

Afterall, we had DGP coming up with "Baddies From the Core" which could have easily become canon, as much as TNE was to become the canon...had GDW and DGP cooperated and cloned (the DGP staff several times over).

The "Baddies from the Core" were a novel idea, but could hardly qualify as "internal troubles". Still, not very believable. See below.

Plus, one thing that the 1980s hated was stability and this was reflected in RPGs, as well as the larger society. I really couldn't see GDW not responding to the momentious events of world politics by not extending the great ungluing to the Zhodani Consulate for very long. The Rebellion was also sympatomatic of a larger desire to shake things up. The entry in the Rebellion Sourcebook make the Consulate almost like a benign state. Now, knowing that Marc always had a trick or two up his sleeve, could we count on that stabilty lasting especially as other supplements such as the Cloak & Dagger supplement came into being.

This is pure speculation, unsupported by facts.
In any case: Unspecified "internal troubles" would have been even less believable than the Diabolus-ex-machina Empress Wave. The Consulate, which has been stable for thousands of years, destabilizes, by pure coincidence, at the exact same time as the Imperium? Gimme a break. I'll rather swallow anti-grav, jump drives and an extra helping of meson guns than that.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by Tobias:
[QB]

There is no evidence to support it was. Actually, if you read it in a context with the RS article, it can be argued that it might have indicated the Zhodani backing off from the border to make the DoD feel safer. I see how it could also seen as conflicting with other MT material, though, seeing as how the TNS was basically the only remaining GDW input into the Traveller timeline.

The entry was about the battle damaged couriers that I was thinking about. True, making the DoD a safer place would have part of those shadowy operations consistant with RS. Clearly, also, GDW did not want the Marches to become a battleground for ideas like it did in CT. Keep in mind, at the time DGP was viewed as Approved Use for Traveller, which meant it was as close as one could get to official. And, the fact that DGP was launching into something...makes me think that GDW was in tow.

The "Baddies from the Core" were a novel idea, but could hardly qualify as "internal troubles". Still, not very believable. See below.

The Baddies were shaking up some of the confidence of the Nobles. Particularly, as the adventure sketched out that Imperials those scum, psionic hating and potential trecherous individuals could come and save the day is indicative of a state of flux.

The Zhodani Module also hints at factions that GT later elabourates upon. Only Avery knows what he was thinking about the Rebellion and he ain't speaking about it.

This is pure speculation, unsupported by facts.
In any case: Unspecified "internal troubles" would have been even less believable than the Diabolus-ex-machina Empress Wave. The Consulate, which has been stable for thousands of years, destabilizes, by pure coincidence, at the exact same time as the Imperium? Gimme a break. I'll rather swallow anti-grav, jump drives and an extra helping of meson guns than that.

Well, in the world of RPGs, we have had to eat alot more than that. I grant you it is quite implausible that the Consulate would fall at the same time in the same dramatic fashion. Which is why I pointed you in the direction of the Crucible Campaign. He several interesting propositions that work, even if we don't have a Virus to level things out or Empress Wave.

GDW had a love/hate relationship with the Zhodani. They saw them as a perfect reason to clamp down on Magic getting too far and at the same time create villains that players could easily relate to (in appearance and manner). The groud started shifting so did the perception of the Zhodani but always lurking was a negative stereotype that was partially based upon a worldview that filtered events of the time.

I think GDW was just as amazed as we all were by the events of 1985-1989. Whether, they are surrogate Iranians or Soviets both targets of American thoughts at that time, they were thought to weak and crumbling.

Speculation? Sure it is. I plead Guilty. We cannot get into the heads into game designers and even if we could we would never find out the answers. Therefore, positive criticism may actually tweak out the better picture.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by SolomaniGuyHere:
When I purchaed the Solomani Module I liked some of the material but I am sorry I couldn't agree with all of it. So I made the Solomani Confederacy like the Confederaty of the Civil War.

The analogy with the Confederacy is an entirely legitimate reading of the Solomani, in my opinion.

The only canonical aspect that conflicts with it is the presence of SolSec, but the creation of such an agency would have been very likely if the CSA had continued to exist into the 20th century.

Another useful analogy is apartheid-era South Africa, which had very powerful and nasty intelligence agencies in a rather similar society.

The Solomani Confederation isn't an exact copy of an particular historical example, of course, but it's reasonable to visualise it as a combination of aspects of a number of societies.

The interesting part about it, of course, is that a lot of these societies are actually very familiar... The Solomani aren't particularly like Nazi Germany, and aren't even remotely similar to the Stalinised Soviet Union, but are a great deal like parts of the USA in certain periods of its history! And like the British Empire, and Australia (I'm Australian), and South Africa, and Israel, and... We've all had sections of our societies that were excluded and oppressed, and we've all had agencies that were involved in keeping dissidents in line.

And that's how I tend to view the Solomani.

Oh yeah. The Solomani party is not a monolith either. It could be legitimately viewed as an umbrella for a whole bunch of different planetary parties, whose only real affinity is acceptance of and loyalty to the Solomani state as it is presently constituted. In effect, it's a multi-party system wearing a single hat. It's not that radically different from a US-style two-party system, although it's very different from the theoretically more ideologically differentiated multi-party systems present in many other countries.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by kafka47:
The entry was about the battle damaged couriers that I was thinking about.

I was actually thinking of something else... I guess. Could you tell me the actual source?

Keep in mind, at the time DGP was viewed as Approved Use for Traveller, which meant it was as close as one could get to official. And, the fact that DGP was launching into something...makes me think that GDW was in tow.

DGP, at that time, practically was Traveller. GDW as far as I can tell wasn't so much in tow as out of the loop.

The Baddies were shaking up some of the confidence of the Nobles. Particularly, as the adventure sketched out that Imperials those scum, psionic hating and potential trecherous individuals could come and save the day is indicative of a state of flux.

Which adventure? It was merely an idea AFAIK. If you happen to have more information about it, I'd like to know: From where?

The Zhodani Module also hints at factions that GT later elabourates upon. Only Avery knows what he was thinking about the Rebellion and he ain't speaking about it.

Could you tell me what exactly you mean here?

Well, in the world of RPGs, we have had to eat alot more than that.

Yes. So?
Most RPGs, movies and TV suck exactly because of this: They obliterate common sense in favor of some forced plotline. This kills my SoD faster than any super-technology or magic ever could.

Speculation? Sure it is. I plead Guilty. We cannot get into the heads into game designers and even if we could we would never find out the answers.

Then please don't try to sell it as if it were fact. All you wrote is basically just a product of your imagination.

But as long as we're speculating here: I actually credit DGP and GDW with a little more imagination than to simply translate the Zeitgeist 1:1 into their game.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Golan2072]

I'd say that the Baddies from the Core were unnescery (sp?); the Zhodani weren't expansionist to begin with (their ruling elite has thought for a long time that the Consulate has reached its optimal size), and even if they'll try to push a little into the Spinward Marches to create a "buffer zone", they probably won't invade any further even into a VERY weak or totally collapsed Imperium.

Ofcourse, the Consulate does have serious (how serious?) economic relations with the Imperium, and the Imperium's collapse won't be good for it; revolutionary movements within the collapsed Imperium might have their effect on the Consolate, but the Thought Police will probably stop most of them, unless they'll be backed by the psionic elite (i.e. different power groups within the Zhodani nobility manipulating the Prole masses against each other). The main point is that the Consolute isn't going to invade too deeply into the Imperium the moment it collapses.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Ofcourse, the Consulate does have serious (how serious?) economic relations with the Imperium, and the Imperium's collapse won't be good for it;

Do they have these relations? This is one of the things that was never quite elaborated in CT/MT canon. Does GT have something on this?

revolutionary movements within the collapsed Imperium might have their effect on the Consolate, but the Thought Police will probably stop most of them, unless they'll be backed by the psionic elite (i.e. different power groups within the Zhodani nobility manipulating the Prole masses against each other).

Why should any of this happen?
Social movements (the Rebellion wasn't one anyway) in the Imperium haven't had any discernable effect on the Consulate in centuries. Why should they suddenly have one at the very instant the Imperium proves what the Zhodani suspected all along: That it was an instable society harboring internal strife?

The main point is that the Consolute isn't going to invade too deeply into the Imperium the moment it collapses.

Yep. And the Rebellion sourcebook clearly states why. What came after it, be it Baddies from the Core, or the Empress Wave, was retconned.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by SolomaniGuyHere:
Solomani and SolSec? Ok why does it seem to me the that Mr Miller makes humans from Terra and the Solomani more akin to the Nazi party?

SGH,

Have you ever read MT's Solomani and Alsan? I'm wondering because of the beliefs stated in your post.

Does the Solomani Confederation have a single political party like Nazi Germany? Yes. However, the SC is not Nazi Germany.

Does the Solomani Confederation government work in a troika system like the late USSR? Yes. However, the SC is not the USSR.

The Imperium isn't a monarchy, isn't the Victorian British empire either, and republics aren't to be found in the OTU at the sector+ empire level at all.

The trouble with analogies is that people want to stretch them to the very last degree. Analogies aren't meant to be used like that. Aanlogies are pocket sized, color-coded, subway maps and not a incredibly detailed microchip circuitry diagrams. Don't get trapped in the analogies, try and think instead.

Communications lag is the primary problem facing all interstellar polities in the OTU. Once the size of a polity reaches a certain point(1), governance must solve the communications problem. For the Zhos and Impies, nobility is the answer. The Zhos (mostly) choose their ruling elites from psions, the Impies (mostly) choose their ruling elites from notable families.

Guess what? The Sollies choose ruling elites too. Their elites are (mostly) chosen from the ranks of the Solomani Party. The Sollies use the Party in the same manner the Zhos uses psionics and the Impies use notable families.

Strip away the mouth noises and labels and it becomes pretty self evident. In Sollie-land, party members are nobles. They may not have titles and they may not be able to automatically pass their power onto their children(2), but they're nobles all the same. Just like their Zho and Impie counterparts.

All three empires solved their comm problems in pretty much the same way.

If you read the CT Solomani Alien Module, if you read MT's S&A, if you read the various RIm supplements from CT to GT, if you read the various TNS reports, it becomes readily apparent that the Solomani Party and SolSec are not the goose-steeping monolithic organizations our myths believe the Nazis, Gestapo, Comintern, KGB, NKVD, Baathists, and all the rest were.

The Solomani Party is riven with factions, factions that act like independent political parties. SolSec spends as much time spying on itself than it deos spying on everyone else.

Don't think in absolutes. Traveller has always been 'wheels within wheels' and nuances. Traveller's creators aren't has ham-handed, clumsy, and bereft of imagination as you would make them out to be. They did not and do not 'cookie cutter' historical events and groups in order to paste them into the OTU's story. They use history as a guide, they do not use it a circuit diagram.

Think, don't assume.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - That point will depend on the level of jump technology used. All things being equal, the boundries of a jump1 empire will be smaller than the boundries of jump6 empire.

2 - Some party members do have titles, titles from their local world. Imperial nobles have local titles too. Power isn't supposed to be inherited either. But you know most will find a way to help their children. Bushes, Kennedys, and so forth. The historical examples are endless.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
The Imperium isn't a monarchy, isn't the Victorian British empire either,

I think you meant that it is a monarchy, but that doesn't make it the British Empire, right?

The Zhos (mostly) choose their ruling elites from psions, the Impies (mostly) choose their ruling elites from notable families.

Just a small remark, because many people seem to get a false picture here: The Zhodani have a hereditary nobility just as the Imperium has - they just use psionics among the lower classes as the way of advancement and infusion of fresh blood, where that function is presumably served by meritous conduct in the Imperium.
It logically follows, by the way, that the Zhodani nobles have a rather low birthrate.

Guess what? The Sollies choose ruling elites too. Their elites are (mostly) chosen from the ranks of the Solomani Party.

Now that's a little different. The Solomani actually elect people. So do the Zhodani, it is true, but only among the nobility (at least as far as interstellar government is concerned.)

In Sollie-land, party members are nobles. They may not have titles and they may not be able to automatically pass their power onto their children(2), but they're nobles all the same.

I disagree. Birthright is a defining characteristic of nobility. Furthermore, there is no indication of the direct linking of property and political standing, which is another characteristic of nobility, in the Solomani party. Lastly, every Solomani citizen is a party member, which outrules the most basic characteristic of nobility, that of distinction.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[owlbear]

Bill Cameron wrote:

"The Solomani Party is riven with factions, factions that act like independent political parties. SolSec spends as much time spying on itself than it deos spying on everyone else."

I would only add that the Solomani dominated nation is a confederation which implies much more local autonomy than say a federation. This adds more complexity to the makeup rendering the Confederation less monolithic and highly discordant.

IMTU most citizens of the Solomani Confederation have the maxim: If you don't like it in one place, try somewhere else; they probably have a different view (paradigm), and less or more intrusion depending on what you are looking for.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Tobias:
I disagree. Birthright is a defining characteristic of nobility. Furthermore, there is no indication of the direct linking of property and political standing, which is another characteristic of nobility, in the Solomani party. Lastly, every Solomani citizen is a party member, which outrules the most basic characteristic of nobility, that of distinction.

Tobias,

Sorry, but no. Read Solomani & Alsan.

There are nations in the Confederation that are as 'feudal' as the Imperium supposedly is and whose rulers are hereditary nobles. Those rulers then hold positions of power in the Confederation at large. You can bet your last thaler that the new king has at least as much political pull on the Confederation level as the old king. If that isn't hereditary, what is?

If you don't believe me, check out the recent TNS news bits regarding the events on Aquitaine surrounding the queen there, especially the dynastic marriage with another noble family which rule nearby Polyphemus as 'ephors'.

The Confederation may be a 'republic' on the interstellar level; just the Consulate is, but the manner in which each member world selects its representatives varies greatly. You can very easily be a hereditary count and a Solomani party boss at teh same time.

As for elections, there are elections and then there are elections. North Korea holds elections, are they in any real way like the elections held in Germany? Other than the label that is. Don't be confused by labels.

Your comment regarding the linking property with political standing is incorrect too. There are no official links between property and political standing in the US or Germany, but the unofficial link between the two is apparent to all but the most willfully ignorant.

On the federal level, US Senators are almost uniformly millionaires. They are either men of property before their election or become so quickly after their election. Examine the elected representatives in Germany's levels of government and you'll find the same dynamic at work as in the US; very few elected representatives are from lower socio-economic groupings. Sure, there is the occasional professor, student, housing development inhabitant, and so forth, but they are the exceptions, not the rule, and the offices they hold are concentrated towards to bottom of the political system.

People of property accrue power to guard that property and then try to pass both that property and power onto their descedents. In human societies they are mostly successful in this despite punitive inheritance taxes and all the other attempts at leveling. Power breeds power and the Golden Rule is whoever has the gold makes the rules.

As for party standing, my comments on elections holds true here also. There are party members and then there are party members. Because every Solomani becomes a party member at birth, the party member label is diluted to the point of irrelevence. Being a member and acting as a member are two utterly different things, as CT's 'party standing' code in the Solomani UPP points out.

Simply being a party member doesn't mean you bother to vote in elections either. Was the turnout in Germany's last election; the one that put the ex-East German 'communist'(1) scientist in the chancellor's seat, anywhere near 50%? How many supposed 'party members' from all the parties involved didn't even bother to cast a vote?

It is not as simple as those analogies and labels would have us believe it is.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Your new chancellor is a perfect example of my 'there are party members and then there are party members' comment. Sure, as an Osti and an educated, successful adult she was a communist. Of course, to first get that education and then be allowed to become successful she had to be a communist. There was no choice involved, other than the choice to remain uneducated and unsuccessful. She was as much a 'communist' as most Solomani are 'party members'. That is to say, not at all.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by neworlder:
IMTU most citizens of the Solomani Confederation have the maxim: If you don't like it in one place, try somewhere else; they probably have a different view (paradigm), and less or more intrusion depending on what you are looking for.

Neworlder,

And, of course, Your Traveller Universe is not the Official Traveller Universe and thus doesn't matter in this conversation.

Freedom of migration in the Confederation seems to be about as guaranteed as freedom of movement within the Imperium; meaning it is as spotty and dependent on local conditions as anywhere else.

The frequency of Amber and Red zones is the same on either side of the Ceasefire Line, as is the distribution of government types. If freedom of migration was assured, hellholes and totalitarian states would see an endemic 'brain drain' despite high travel prices. They do not.


Have fun,
Bill