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Snub Pistols and Shotguns.

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PapaGolfWhiskey

SOC-13
I was always a fan of the Snub pistol.
The varied rounds you could buy plus the idea that you could 'dial' up specific rounds (reminding me of Mr. Nolan's cool novel: Logan's Run) Seemed just too cool for words.

However, why stop there? Now way a snub pistol round is bigger than your average 12 guage shotgun shell. And remember it's the round that is the weopan the gun is just the launcher. So... why not high -tech rounds for Shotguns. Instead of just Slugs and Buckshot? Why not HEAP, or Gas? or even an Entangle round of some sort.. (spider silk protiens? Memory plastic? it could be done)

I have this vision of Connery-esque Merchant Security officer running around with a short barreled pistol-gripped shotgun, protecting a corporate asteroid mining colon...oh right sorry That was a movie...

 
Blast, I can't find it now, it's here somewhere, just not where it's supposed to be :mad:

I speak of my extensive list of crunchy fun for shotguns I came up with way back in the MegaErrata era. The player's book there has trang and gas rounds for shotguns and that was enough at the time to spark me and I added several more specialized rounds. Incendiary, flare, smoke, tangle, yes of course he and heap, and a grenade, a beanbag, a banger, gosh I can't recall them all but the saddest part is we never actually played enough to use them. By the time I had the errors and new system figured out comfortably enough my players had given up and we went back to (dreaded by some of you) AD&D. The shock, the horror, the disappointment, sigh... Story of my Traveller life with every version post LBB, except GT since I never bought into it... <cue flashback>

Looking at GT just in at FLGS with a friend...

Friend "I can't believe this, it's all in miles and pounds." puts book back on shelf...

Me flipping through pages "It is." putting it back on the shelf and thinking 'why would they do that, it's always been metric, the choice of science and science fiction for years' now what will become of my favorite game...

<end of flashback>

Trying to get others interested again in CT never worked, I pray T20 will be all I hope and I can turn our group of d20 D&D'ers into Travellers...

Oh well strayed off subject there, gotta go read TA #1 again and see what special shotgun rounds there are there and work up all the others again. Thanks for the memory trigger Garf, keep up the excellent posting
 
Seems like a good place to ask this. Forgive my limited knowledge on the subject, I'm a bit of a (small g) gun-nut but haven't kept up much over the last ten years or so and have very little practical experience with handguns.

The Traveller Snub Revolver and Snub Auto-Pistol have optional rounds available. I am just starting a character in a PBEM campaign and making him a bit of a pacifist ex Naval Officer I decided I could load my Snub Auto sidearm with 3 tranqs on top and fill the rest of the magazine with my choice of lethal rounds. So if it comes to a need to draw he can 'safely' fire at least three rounds without worrying about casualities, and if it's a situation requiring deadly force he's willing to sacrifice the combat round to empty the tranqs in one burst before resorting to lethal rounds. If he has time to make an assessment he can always eject the magazine and insert a full lethal load. That's the explanation, the question is would mixing rounds in a magazine cause problems? I'm expecting that even though the gun is high enough TL to use caseless 'rounds' it doesn't since the Snub Revolver uses the same rounds and they would have to be cased, or would they (hmm a second question)? Could there be high TL caseless 'rounds' for revolvers or would this just never work? Thanks in advance for the feedback. This has probably been done to death over on the Traveller Gun list but I have a hard enough time keeping up with what I'm already into
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Seems like a good place to ask this. Forgive my limited knowledge on the subject, I'm a bit of a (small g) gun-nut but haven't kept up much over the last ten years or so and have very little practical experience with handguns.

The Traveller Snub Revolver and Snub Auto-Pistol have optional rounds available. I am just starting a character in a PBEM campaign and making him a bit of a pacifist ex Naval Officer I decided I could load my Snub Auto sidearm with 3 tranqs on top and fill the rest of the magazine with my choice of lethal rounds. So if it comes to a need to draw he can 'safely' fire at least three rounds without worrying about casualities, and if it's a situation requiring deadly force he's willing to sacrifice the combat round to empty the tranqs in one burst before resorting to lethal rounds. If he has time to make an assessment he can always eject the magazine and insert a full lethal load. That's the explanation, the question is would mixing rounds in a magazine cause problems? I'm expecting that even though the gun is high enough TL to use caseless 'rounds' it doesn't since the Snub Revolver uses the same rounds and they would have to be cased, or would they (hmm a second question)? Could there be high TL caseless 'rounds' for revolvers or would this just never work? Thanks in advance for the feedback. This has probably been done to death over on the Traveller Gun list but I have a hard enough time keeping up with what I'm already into
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Mixing rounds in the magazine should not cause problems, since all the rounds are designed for that weapon. As to the caseless/cased issue, a revolver would need SOME kind of case to seal the base of the round, otherwise firing it will mostly result in scorching the pistol and the firer's hand. It could be a stub case, not a full length case, but the advantage of doing that would be limited (slightly lighter, but more vulnerable to damage).

StrikerFan
 
Originally posted by StrikerFan:
Mixing rounds in the magazine should not cause problems, since all the rounds are designed for that weapon. As to the caseless/cased issue, a revolver would need SOME kind of case to seal the base of the round, otherwise firing it will mostly result in scorching the pistol and the firer's hand. It could be a stub case, not a full length case, but the advantage of doing that would be limited (slightly lighter, but more vulnerable to damage).

StrikerFan
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You could do someting like the Nagant pistol, which pushed the cylinder forward as the trigger was pulled to form a tighter gas seal with the barrel. With turn of the century machining technology, the Nagant was overly complex and resulted in a brutal trigger pull, but a future version might be better.
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Under TNE/FFS1 rules, you could do this with just about any weapon you cared to run the numbers on. For smaller calibers it was difficult to get the same effects, but the rules did allow it. As a rule of thumb, I didn't allow special ammo on rounds smaller than 6mm... but that was just an arbitrary decision.

I used to have specialty ammo floating around for most pistol calibers and shotguns. Common rounds were Tranq, HE, HEAP, sabot, and flare.

Of course, we also had 10mm gauss rounds as well... but the rules let you adjust the velocities, charges, and recoil requirements as desired.
 
A round which I always felt suited the Snub pistol, was the silent cartridge. This cartridge has a piston between the powder and the projectile to push the projectile out, but it can't go farther than the end of the cartridge case so no gas escapes to make a bang, even without a bulky silencer.

This ain't science fiction. In the 1960s PRB (of the Netherlands?) made a silent mortar like this. In the early 1970s the US Army developed the principle for a pistol for "tunnel rats" firing a shot load from a revolver. And in the 1980s the KGB built one that, IIRC, projected a steel spike.
At least the with the tunnel rat gun the click of hammer drowned out all other noises.

For a 18mm shotgun, look at the ammo proposed for the 20mm OICW and the 25mm OCSW, including high explosive and chemical payloads. The Air force is looking at homing 20mm rounds as is the Army for the Future Warrior program.
 
WOW...

Mixing Rounds.

In the revolver it definitely doesn't matter.
In the automatic. hmmm... Thereotically it Might cause the slide to hang depending on the build of the gun.

IMTU snub pistols (both types) and accelerator rifles (described as longarm versions of the snubs) are actually minature rocket launchers.

Again this is not science fiction. The Gyrojet pistol fired 13mm rockets as far back as the 1970's...it wasn't a commercial success though.

the fluff for Snubs describes their rounds as being about 13mm (I'm pretty sure) this is slighty larger than 1/2 an inch (.50 cal = 12.7 mm) it's a big bullet. Self propelled it would have minimum recoil (as described in the game) and ... yeah since the rockets are just stacked atop each other in the automatic which in turn uses far fewer moving parts than a traditional autopistol. Mixing rounds should work.

Silent Round: no not science fiction indeed. The german Armbrust (crossbow) a disposable recoiless rifle occupying the same tactical role (approximately) as the SHRAW rocket uses the sealed capsule techinque and launched a wad of plastic flakes out the back to provide the balancing backblast. The backblast danger area is thus dratically reduced. AND it's silent and flashless.

There is also the Teleshot. A shot gun round that replaces the wad with a steel expanding capsule that surounds the entire powder charge. When the charge is ignited the capsule expands but does not open. The pellets are launched with no noise or flash other than the sound of them escaping the tube.... unfortunately the expanding capsule makes the fired shell significantly larger than unfired ones. making this round unsuited to anything other than single shot or double barreled shotguns. (anything other than a break open action would hang up upon trying to extract the expanded round).

so yeah why not silent shot gun rounds.
As for snubs. I always thought they were pretty quiet anyway. their flight would make less noise than a kids model rocket.

GARF.

PS I just noted someone mentioning saboted rounds. Again reality matches science fiction there's been a military only round in existence for at least ten years that is a .50 cal steel penetrator wrapped in a fibreglass or plastic sabot to make it fit in a 12 guage shell. I saw it used in movie to shoot through cars but I would suggest you actually look up it's real world performance if it interests you.
 
Originally posted by Garf:
I just noted someone mentioning saboted rounds. Again reality matches science fiction there's been a military only round in existence for at least ten years that is a .50 cal steel penetrator wrapped in a fibreglass or plastic sabot to make it fit in a 12 guage shell. I saw it used in movie to shoot through cars but I would suggest you actually look up it's real world performance if it interests you.
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Main gun ammo for the M1 series tank, based on the 120mm Reinmetal gun fires a subcaliber sabot of depleated uranium. The actual projectile is somewhat dart shaped and rather long once it leaves the petals behind. Projectile stats are 4.7kg, 1690m/sec. There is supposedly a hotter service round that runs around 1800m/sec. Tank crews prefer this round to the full caliber HEAT round, as it is more reliable and much more accurate.

If the officers are to be believed, the round can penetrate 100" of homogenous steel plate at 0° incidence. I don't know about that, but I've seen first hand what it can do to a T55 tank turret... not pretty at all.

Same thing used for small arms... better penetration, faster slug, but at a cost of mass. There should be an optimal combination for any given round where the trade off betwen mass and velocity gives the best performance. If the sabot gets you there, then by all means use it.

I mentioned it above because it was one of the available specialty rounds under TNE/FFS1 rules. Their trade off was less damage and better penetration.
 
I wonder how damage vs. penetration would work in T20?

increased critical threat? reduction of armour rating?

it's not mentioned in T20 lite. Since criticals ignore Armour Rating I'd guesse a better chance of a critical is most logical.
 
I don't know about that one. From the Lite rules, it appears that weapons with more dice in their damage pool penetrate armor more effectively. So, on that basis, it would seem that better penetration weapons would have more dice in their pool.

I was considering just flat out saying that Sabot/AP ammo got a few levels of armor pen for free IMTU, but was going to wait to see the full T20 rules before I made that decision.
 
On both points immediatly above: works for me.

as for the rest
I honestly see the snub revolver and a shotgun with speciality loads as being close to THE station/ship security standards. Navy Planet Patrol and Marine MP's might have sexier automatics. or guass weapons (which also have specialty rounds) Local Enforcement might have just about anything from longswords and crossbows to High tech stun only billy clubs to heaven forbid Revolvers....

heh.
 
Back to the Armbrust mentioned above. You can go here <http://www.jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust-series.html> for a picture btw. Heh, and while I'm pasting bookmarks check this one out for more Traveller Gun fun <http://weapons.travellercentral.com/>

Anyway, I'm wondering how small you could make an effective weapon like this, has anyone doen a FF&S or other build? I'm picturing something shotgun sized fired 'from the hip' with the blowback directed behind the shooter. Firing from the hip would be no problem with HUD aiming and no recoil is what I'd want in zero/micro g's. In a vacuum (or other for that matter) combat my allies behind me would be in armor so no worry about the little kinetics of the ballast, right?
 
Originally posted by Garf:
hmm... well there is the Snub pistols heavier cousin. The accelerator rifle.
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But right now I'm in a TNE game and the whole Snub family picked up recoil, including the Accelerator Rifle even though it's described as "designed specifically for use in zero-G". I guess what I need to build is a small recoilless rifle. Any RL examples of sub-anti-tank bazooka's come to mind? Anyway, no big deal, I do have a couple laser weapons ;) just have to hope the enemy isn't wearing any rigid armor.
 
The Aforementioned Armbrust is actually a recoiless rifle but probably falls into your parameters

as does the LAW or SRAW rocket. in space there is no sound and even light propagates differently. in micro and 0-g most projectiles will appear to go laser straight. The nasty thing about a flashless weapoin like the armbrust is that the target will have NO idea where the shells are comming from.
 
Originally posted by Garf:
The Aforementioned Armbrust is actually a recoiless rifle but probably falls into your parameters...
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... or do you mean outside my parameters? I know it's a recoilless rifle
, and exactly what I'm looking for, just smaller, maybe a quarter the size...

... as does the LAW or SRAW rocket. in space there is no sound and even light propagates differently. in micro and 0-g most projectiles will appear to go laser straight. The nasty thing about a flashless weapoin like the armbrust is that the target will have NO idea where the shells are comming from.
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... yes, very nasty <eg>, now you've told everyone why I want one, and why any GM will probably not let me have it but may give it to the 'bad guys'
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
... or do you mean outside my parameters? I know it's a recoilless rifle
, and exactly what I'm looking for, just smaller, maybe a quarter the size...
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Ah. hmm so...like... an armbrust firing 'blooker' shells? (40mm grenade)

... yes, very nasty <eg>, now you've told everyone why I want one, and why any GM will probably not let me have it but may give it to the 'bad guys'
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Well as a Ref myself (mostly because that's the only way I can wrestle in enough players to play at all) I had a collegial duty to warn my brethren and sistren. (translation - oops my bad, but instead of apologising I'll pretend I meant to do it all along.
)

Garf.
 
Originally posted by Garf:
Ah. hmm so...like... an armbrust firing 'blooker' shells? (40mm grenade)
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(picky mode)Actually that's a "blooper."(/picky mode)

We called it that because that's the sound an M-79 makes when you fire it. No BANG or BOOM or whatever. Just this hollow sort of "bloop" sound. Made lots more noise when grenade hit. <eg>

BTW the M-79 also had a shotgun round. It was a standard 12 gauge shell inserted into a plastic 40mm case with a metal base. I suppose you could reload those by popping the used shell out and slipping another 12 gauge shell into the case. I never fired one of those so I don't know what it was like.
 
Blooper not Blooker. Cool! learn something new every day. Though 'Blook' makes adquate autonomopea, it's nice to know what the thing was actually called.

And the canister round was -only- 12 guage shell? I'd been under the impression that it WAS a buckshot round... scaled up to 40mm (BWAMMO) oh well. Sometimes reality isn't as amusing as fantasy.

Garf
 
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