Small ship universe

[Gray Pennell]

Why?

I argue the devastation is high much higher than Efate since the attacking fleets where rebuffed there. Now I think it should be made clear that the devastation may or may not be caused by orbital attacks. But the Jewel systems especially Ruby and Emerald were crushed. I make this conjecture based on the TAS news reports.

First the fighting there took place over all three years with the systems being the last to liberated.

Second Imperial forces where badly mauled that infers heavy heavy fighting occurred over the course of the war.

Third there were reports of war crimes on Ruby and Emerald which shows that the heavy fighting spilled over into civilian areas and that bad judgement calls happen out of frustration. Since the Zho forces are controled psionically than the crimes had to be approved by high ranking commanders in the area which further implies that they where wide spread.

Forth High commands do not order or condone war crimes unless all options including orbit bombard were on the table and used to some degree. The Zho's were expecting an easy win here and they Imperials didnt give it them and that caused the frustration.

Taken together these systems definitely experienced the worse of the Zho invasion with a high cost to civilians. It is reasonable to assume that the mauling of the Imperials and weapons of mast destruction where probably used to break defense. This could have spilled over to the civilans. Were these the war crimes? We dont know but it could be in non OTU: as the story is left untold.

Just search the traveller Wiki if you want the facts.

 

[rancke]

I argue the devastation is high much higher than Efate since the attacking fleets where rebuffed there. Now I think it should be made clear that the devastation may or may not be caused by orbital attacks. But the Jewel systems especially Ruby and Emerald were crushed. I make this conjecture based on the TAS news reports.

Ruby's population is in the tens of thousands. Emerald's is in the hundreds of thousand. Mongo's and Lysen's are in the millions.

Jewell's population is in the billions.

Any Zhodani fleet capable of going toe to toe with Jewell's defenses would be able to roll over any defenses of Ruby, Emerald, Mongo, and Lysen. And unless I've missed a newsbrief while skimming the war years, the only mention we have of fighting on Ruby and Emerald is a report datelined Regina 035-1108 that Ruby, Emerald, and Lysen has fallen to Zhodani forces. No details. For all we know, they could have surrendered without a shot fired.

Next we have unconfirmed rumors at the beginning of 1110 about Zhodani atrocities towards citizens of Ruby and Emerald. Could be true, could be false, but they're rumors of atrocities, not combat.

First the fighting there took place over all three years with the systems being the last to liberated.

Liberation would have been in the form of a negotiated evacuation of the Zhodani troops following the armistice and the peace settlement.

Second Imperial forces were badly mauled that implies heavy fighting occurred over the course of the war.

The only heavy fighting I can recall mentioned is the fighting on Jewell.

Third there were reports of war crimes on Ruby and Emerald which shows that the heavy fighting spilled over into civilian areas and that bad judgement calls happen out of frustration.

Unconfirmed rumors, not reports.

Just search the traveller Wiki if you want the facts.

The facts are very scanty.


Hans

 

[Gray Pennell]

Hans Go back and check the wiki every thing I said was from there. Those worlds were the ones talked about in TAS Reports. I am not putting put links because I dont want to get a warning for copy right issues.

 

[far-trader]

You misunderstand the copyright issues on this site Gray Pennel. Linking to the wiki or even copying properly attributed text for discussion is fine.

 

[Carlobrand]

Why?

I argue the devastation is high much higher than Efate since the attacking fleets where rebuffed there. Now I think it should be made clear that the devastation may or may not be caused by orbital attacks. But the Jewel systems especially Ruby and Emerald were crushed. I make this conjecture based on the TAS news reports.

First the fighting there took place over all three years with the systems being the last to liberated.

Second Imperial forces where badly mauled that infers heavy heavy fighting occurred over the course of the war.

Third there were reports of war crimes on Ruby and Emerald which shows that the heavy fighting spilled over into civilian areas and that bad judgement calls happen out of frustration. ...

Ruby: B400445-B, vacuum world, pop. 20,000, Class B starport, scout base, no significant military force, no SDB force. There was no fighting there. A vacuum world with no SDB force would have surrendered the moment Zhodani warships got within range.

Emerald B766555-B, agricultural world, pop. 500,000, Class B starport, scout base, one batallion equipped to TL-11 standards, no SDB force. They'd have lasted about as long as Denmark managed against the Germans (which according to historical records was about 2 hours).

If there were any war crimes at either world, they occurred under occupation, not as a result of battle.

Jewell: A777999-C, industrial world, pop 6 billion, Class A starport, naval base and scout base, 1200 batallions equipped to TL-12 standards, 120 SDBs, a Colonial dreadnought squadron, a Colonial cruiser squadron, and the bulk of the Imperial 125th fleet. Per Spinward Marches Campaign, the system was hotly contested, with a part of the Imperial/Colonial fleet holding one of the gas giants to permit reinforcements to come in and refuel, a second part fighting to defend the world surface, and a third reinforcing the SDBs in attacks against the Zhodani fleet. A Zhodani ground force managed a beach-head on the planet, was forced out, but managed to established a second beach-head - that's as far as they got. Most of the fighting was in space or would have been confined to the region around the Zhodani beach-heads. With the fighting stalemated, some ships of the Zhodani fleet were rotated to support the Zhodani assault on Rhylanor.

Contrary to the TAS reports, that sounds like the Imperial forces held their own pretty well.

...Since the Zho forces are controled psionically than the crimes had to be approved by high ranking commanders in the area which further implies that they where wide spread.

Forth High commands do not order or condone war crimes unless all options including orbit bombard were on the table and used to some degree. The Zho's were expecting an easy win here and they Imperials didnt give it them and that caused the frustration. .

"RHYLANOR/RHYLANOR (0306-A434934-F) Date: 039-1110
The public relations office of the Imperial Navy refused to deny or to confirm
rumors of Zhodani atrocities against citizens of Ruby and Emerald during the recent occupation of those worlds."

Rumors of war crimes follow any occupation. Sometimes they're true, sometimes not. There is only rumor to suggest they occurred at all, nothing to suggest they were widespread, and most certainly nothing to suggest they were part of a High Command ordered or condoned operation. You are reading an awful lot into a single news item about unconfirmed rumors.

And, Zho forces are not "controlled psionically". They are a psionic culture in which non-psionic commoners accept the idea that their leadership possesses and uses psionics for the common good. Their military is as well-trained and organized as any military, and operate in the same way any professional military would - they just have the advantage of psionics for communications, intelligence-gathering and special operations.

Taken together these systems definitely experienced the worse of the Zho invasion with a high cost to civilians. It is reasonable to assume that the mauling of the Imperials and weapons of mast destruction where probably used to break defense. ...

Taken together:
Ruby was occupied without a fight, might have been subject to war crimes, might not - but an Imperial civvie considers it a war crime for a Zho to read his mind, while the Zho see it as a logical and necessary part of policing a hostile population. Doesn't mean any tempers were lost.

Emerald was occupied after a brief fight. Same basic story from there.

Contrary to TAS reports, the Imperials at Jewell were not mauled. Per The Spinward Marches Campaign, they managed to fight the invading fleet to a stalemate and confined the ground war to a pair of beach-head regions. Those regions were probably pretty badly damaged - that's normal for any battle zone, and atomics may have played a role there. There may well have been some secondary damage due to falling ships, if any crippled craft were unlucky. However, there's nothing in canon to suggest heavy damage to the world at large, nor is there any strategic reason the Zho would engage in indiscriminate bombardment when they had hopes of taking the world by defeating the Imperial fleet elsewhere.

 

[steventirey1985]

If there were any war crimes at either world, they occurred under occupation, not as a result of battle.

I didn't find anything about war crimes on Emerald, but Ruby did have this:

Ruby was occupied by Zhodani ground forces following a short battle with Imperial screening forces at the opening of the Fifth Frontier War in 1107. During the battle, the IMS 'Johore' was forced down onto Ruby's surface. Its surviving crew and marines fled the crash site to begin a guerrilla war against the Zhodani. In response to raids, the Zhodani commander took hostages from among the civilian population. Unfortunately, twelve of the hostages were killed in an abortive rescue attempt by the guerrilla forces. When news leaked out, the Imperium made its celebrated accusation of Zhodani atrocities against Ruby's civilians. Perhaps surprisingly, the Zhodani occupation of Ruby was rather benign - the unfortunate Zhodani ground forces commander was replaced, and reparations were paid to the families of the deceased. A cease-fire was negotiated between the Zhodani and the guerrillas shortly afterwards. The Imperial Marines were guaranteed safe passage aboard a neutral vessel to Imperial-held space, where they were feted as heroes. Their commander, Lt. Rivka Moishe, was later knighted by Duke Norris of Regina for her actions.

12 hostages were killed in a raid (didn't say who killed them), and the Zhodani not only replaced the commander in charge there, but paid the families reparations.

 

[rancke]

Hans Go back and check the wiki every thing I said was from there. Those worlds were the ones talked about in TAS Reports. I am not putting put links because I dont want to get a warning for copy right issues.

Gray, what I checked was the canonical TNS newsbriefs. I may have missed one or more. If so, please point them out for me. I may have overlooked other canonical sources. If so, please point them out for me.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I didn't find anything about war crimes on Emerald, but Ruby did have this:

[...]

12 hostages were killed in a raid (didn't say who killed them), and the Zhodani not only replaced the commander in charge there, but paid the families reparations.

That is part of the non-canon section. It's one wiki contributor's take on what happened on Ruby. It's not official and it's not proof or even evidence of the official story.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

So, Sir Whipsnade, you're repeating me!

Not only repeating, but agreeing with you too.

Sadly my piss poor prose style didn't allow that aspect of post to come across.

 

[Whipsnade]

Since the Zho forces are controled psionically than the crimes had to be approved by high ranking commanders in the area which further implies that they where wide spread.

That statement betrays an incredible ignorance regarding Traveller psionics in general ad canonical Zhodani society in particular.

Proles are not robots or zombies minutely directed hither and yon by their psionic masters.

 

[Old_Dr_Skull]

But just look at them!
They have those turbans, Dracula cloaks and thin evil-guy mustaches!

 

[77topaz]

But just look at them!
They have those turbans, Dracula cloaks and thin evil-guy mustaches!

That's only in the Spinward Marches (Frontier Wars) - elsewhere they seem to be more the "good" side.

 

[aramis]

That's only in the Spinward Marches (Frontier Wars) - elsewhere they seem to be more the "good" side.

The AM: Zhodani treatment is actually pretty nice to them. Semi-benevolent autocracy. Utopian semi-capitalist loosely managed market. Not bad guys... just very different in how they view crime and corrections: All crime is mental illness; all mental illnesses are either exploitable or correctable.

 

[Carlobrand]

Yeah, but ... they READ your MIND!! (Shudder!)

For a person not brought up in that culture, the idea of someone who might sneak a peak into the dirty crannies of your brain and maybe catch that unguarded dirty thought or stumble across those little secrets, embarrassments and regrets you've kept carefully buried away is more than a little unnerving. They might be good from an objective perspective, but its usually the subjective perspective that rules public opinion. Subjectively, they're the people with the power to peer through the mental "clothes" and see you naked, the people who can see the intensely personal little secrets that you don't want seen.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yeah, but in a nice way.

Yeah, but ... they READ your MIND!! (Shudder!)

For a person not brought up in that culture, the idea of someone who might sneak a peak into the dirty crannies of your brain and maybe catch that unguarded dirty thought or stumble across those little secrets, embarrassments and regrets you've kept carefully buried away is more than a little unnerving. They might be good from an objective perspective, but its usually the subjective perspective that rules public opinion. Subjectively, they're the people with the power to peer through the mental "clothes" and see you naked, the people who can see the intensely personal little secrets that you don't want seen.

Honestly, I got the impression that your "dirty little secrets" are not what they are looking for. So you got the hots for that Prole down the block, no big deal. Now, if you thinking about acting violently on that feeling, then the Guardians of Our Morality will of course come and take you to get that anti-social aspect dealt with and we leave a nice note so no one has to worry about what happened to you, and feed your cat.

Also, the Zhodani are much more true to the "did the crime, did the time and now you are back as one of us" concept. There is much less stigma attached to being scooped up by the authorities.

Not to mention their community mental health sweeps. Depressed, we'll be there! And when you get back, you will be much happier and better integrated into your community.

Honestly, when you look at them, they may actually have a much more rational society than the Imperium.

 

[Dragoner]

I think the average Zho has a "think happy thoughts" defense against mental intrusion, similiar in a way to zen meditation; and on the other side of the coin, the thought police really don't want to know what the average idiot is thinking about.

 

[BlackBat242]

Not to mention their community mental health sweeps. Depressed, we'll be there! And when you get back, you will be much happier and better integrated into your community.

Honestly, when you look at them, they may actually have a much more rational society than the Imperium.

I never have, and never will, accept that "we will reprogram how you think to what we feel is proper" to be in any way "good".

Mental health "correction" should stop at "not a danger to yourself or society", with a side helping of "able to take care of and provide for yourself in the world outside"... and NEVER run on to policing what you are thinking inside your mind!

 

[Old_Dr_Skull]

I might be able to get past the turbans, but the evil mustaches and dracula cloaks tell me all I need to know.

 

[Whipsnade]

Mental health "correction" should stop at "not a danger to yourself or society", with a side helping of "able to take care of and provide for yourself in the world outside"... and NEVER run on to policing what you are thinking inside your mind!

And who's to say that Zhodani public mental health practices don't usually do exactly that?

Considering the size of the Consulate I should think "one size fits all" doesn't fit at all. While the Consulate may be more uniform than the Imperium, it isn't a monolith either.

There will be some regions and worlds in which mental health policing respects the patient in the manner you suggest, there will be some regions in worlds in which mental health policing is as frightening as we fear, and all of that will vary over time.

 

[Dragoner]

I never have, and never will, accept that "we will reprogram how you think to what we feel is proper" to be in any way "good".

Mental health "correction" should stop at "not a danger to yourself or society", with a side helping of "able to take care of and provide for yourself in the world outside"... and NEVER run on to policing what you are thinking inside your mind!

You mean in the way our wonderful modern democracies do? 1984 was very insightful in showing how controlling information controls thought as well. The Zhodani aren't good, but nobody is, there is not any manichean dichotomous relationship in the real world; so why play it that way in Traveller? The Imperium can be just as oppressive, esp if it is a local duke sending a band of mercenaries to burn down your village because your not wanting to be exploited by a megacorp is cutting into his profit margin. The Zhodani just do things different, though they are also a different culture and plenty of people find other cultures oppressive.