Skills that don't exist but should

[Timerover51]

I go with the following, if the person playing the character can show a reasonable knowledge pertaining to the task to be done, he/she gets a skill bonus in that area, without necessarily adding the skill to his/her profile. If something like Field Engineering is needed, and he/she brings in a Engineers Handbook for Field Fortifications, or has downloaded the WW2 Field Fortifications data, he/she gets to use the skill, and I may award it to them upon successful completion of a task.

 

[Enoki]

I go with the following, if the person playing the character can show a reasonable knowledge pertaining to the task to be done, he/she gets a skill bonus in that area, without necessarily adding the skill to his/her profile. If something like Field Engineering is needed, and he/she brings in a Engineers Handbook for Field Fortifications, or has downloaded the WW2 Field Fortifications data, he/she gets to use the skill, and I may award it to them upon successful completion of a task.

That brings up an entirely different problem: How to handle players with characters that are far different from their own experiances or players with ones that far exceed the player's ability to play 'in character?'

Some examples might help: How would you want to handle a player who in RL is a real expert on computers but has never even fired a weapon before and has no military background who is playing an Imperial marine with considerable experiance in combat but has zero computer skills?

How good a match is a player who is personally only average in intelligence and generally lethargic physically playing a brilliant and very physically energetic scout in a role where lots of initative and energy are required?

So, would it be right to give a smart, energetic, and clever player skills based on their real world ones or on their own ability to produce knowledge or expert information when it is clear that their in-game character would probably or certainly be unable to do the same?

 

[mike wightman]

I go with the following, if the person playing the character can show a reasonable knowledge pertaining to the task to be done, he/she gets a skill bonus in that area, without necessarily adding the skill to his/her profile. If something like Field Engineering is needed, and he/she brings in a Engineers Handbook for Field Fortifications, or has downloaded the WW2 Field Fortifications data, he/she gets to use the skill, and I may award it to them upon successful completion of a task.

How the hell does the character in the game universe suddenly become aware of the knowledge just gained by the player because they looked something up in a book?

So if I were playing in one of your games I'd be keeping my kindle to hand and be ready to download any manual I may need to gain skills for my character.

 

[Timerover51]

That brings up an entirely different problem: How to handle players with characters that are far different from their own experiances or players with ones that far exceed the player's ability to play 'in character?'

Some examples might help: How would you want to handle a player who in RL is a real expert on computers but has never even fired a weapon before and has no military background who is playing an Imperial marine with considerable experiance in combat but has zero computer skills?

How good a match is a player who is personally only average in intelligence and generally lethargic physically playing a brilliant and very physically energetic scout in a role where lots of initative and energy are required?

I started playing D&D while in a hospital bed at Walter Reed Army Medical Center waiting to find out if I would walk again. Does that mean that I should have only played characters who were essentially immobile? My brain works fine, my body did not, and still does not. My background is that of an Army officer in the Quartermaster Corps, with a strong technical bent and a very strong knowledge of weapons and what they do. I am also a military historian and a few other things. When I play, all that information is available to me. If the person running the game does not recognize that, and allow me to use it, I depart, very quickly.

So, would it be right to give a smart, energetic, and clever player skills based on their real world ones or on their own ability to produce knowledge or expert information when it is clear that their in-game character would probably or certainly be unable to do the same?

I try to match the character being played to the person, but this is a role playing game. If they have the knowledge, they can use it. I have no business asking someone to do something that I would refuse to do.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

I'd guess that if a player has the foresight to look something up and make himself aware of issues through research, then maybe its not necessarily a big leap to assume that the character he's playing might also do the same.

I don't know if that'd mean that I'd give such a player the full benefit of a skill that he doesn't have but may have researched, but I do guess there might be some logic behind giving him at least some benefit overall.

 

[Enoki]

I started playing D&D while in a hospital bed at Walter Reed Army Medical Center waiting to find out if I would walk again. Does that mean that I should have only played characters who were essentially immobile? My brain works fine, my body did not, and still does not. My background is that of an Army officer in the Quartermaster Corps, with a strong technical bent and a very strong knowledge of weapons and what they do. I am also a military historian and a few other things. When I play, all that information is available to me. If the person running the game does not recognize that, and allow me to use it, I depart, very quickly.

No, that's not what I'm getting at at all! What I'm saying, and have run into repeatedly is having a player that is say a 5 term Marine with great combat skills who is being played by a 20 something community college student with zero knowledge of weapons and less of the military who is also overweight and barely passing his classes mostly due to sloth. That results in a situation where he's completely unable to function as his character would in any situation that counts.
It'd be like having someone in your unit who just barely managed to scrape through bootcamp, then somehow managed to get through whatever training followed and shows up at your command expecting to be a special forces operative, sniper, hollywood super action hero...
I as a refree / moderator of a game try very hard to have the players play "in character" as much as possible. I would expect you to help other players if your expertise could do that just as they should for you. But, I would want you to play your character as if you were that character.

I try to match the character being played to the person, but this is a role playing game. If they have the knowledge, they can use it. I have no business asking someone to do something that I would refuse to do.

So, you have a player whose character is a merchant with no skills or background in combat now faced with combat. The player has real world skills in combat and such. Should you as refree allow him to suddenly become a 'super soldier' in the game when technically by the rules he should have difficulty determining how to aim his pistol at the baddies?

 

[Timerover51]

So, you have a player whose character is a merchant with no skills or background in combat now faced with combat. The player has real world skills in combat and such. Should you as refree allow him to suddenly become a 'super soldier' in the game when technically by the rules he should have difficulty determining how to aim his pistol at the baddies?

Put very bluntly, yes. After all, it is My Traveller Universe, and I am the one that designed the adventure/campaign that he/she is playing it. If it is a merchant oriented campaign, the likelihood of major combat with "baddies" as you put it is not excessively great. I normally do not use random die rolls for encounters, as I pre-plan most things. If for some odd reason, combat does result, I have no problem whatsoever with someone using skills from the real world in the game. I am not asking that you allow it.

As for your example of the 20-something community college student, he/she would not make it into the game to begin with.

 

[mike wightman]

So if you were running a fantasy game you's be ok with me getting the local peasants to build a power station, blast furnace and steel converter? I'd also introduce crop rotation and soil testing.

 

[DangerousThing]

As for your example of the 20-something community college student, he/she would not make it into the game to begin with.

And why not?

Speaking as a non-military former college student, of course.

 

[Timerover51]

And why not?

Speaking as a non-military former college student, of course.

What I'm saying, and have run into repeatedly is having a player that is say a 5 term Marine with great combat skills who is being played by a 20 something community college student with zero knowledge of weapons and less of the military who is also overweight and barely passing his classes mostly due to sloth. That results in a situation where he's completely unable to function as his character would in any situation that counts.

That is the full quote. I tend to be a bit more selective with my players. Normally, I know them fairly well, or they have a strong recommendation from someone that I know, or have a bachelor's degree of some type. I will take students from my summer historical gaming class, and I am working on getting a group organized at an engineering school. I know exactly two 20-something community college students.

 

[GypsyComet]

Modern Firefighters on land are skills collections, like any other profession:
Vehicles (Wheeled)-1+ (encompasses firefighting vehicles with DEX and handling car fires with INT or EDU)
Melee Weapons (Axe)-1
Heavy Weapons (various sprayers)-1+
PhysSci (Chemistry)-1+
Demolitions-1+ and/or Mechanical-1+ (encompasses the knowledge of what knocks down buildings, walls, etc)
Vacc Suit-1 (most editions best default for breather gear and heavy PPE)

Depending on edition, a water-based firefighter would swap wheeled vehicles for one or more sizes of watercraft and would add Swimming and SCUBA. A ship-trained "firefighter" (aka a Damage Control crewman) would add Engineering and/or Naval Architect, and Zero-G-Maneuver. A starport firefighter/DamCon Crewman would swap Wheeled Vehicles out for Small Craft or Grav Vehicles and may have the other additions of the starship DCC.

This approach solves the problem in game of "I have Fire Fighting-3. What does that mean?"

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The point being made about your homebrew, timerover, is that you seem to not be restricting the character to what the character should know, instead making it about what the player knows. This seems in contradiction to the idea of role-playing, where you can be something you're not IRL.

As far as knowledge from the player... if they have researched for that character, and I agree with their research (it might not be applicable in MTU), then I will let them use that in play. But, only because it's appropriate to the character.

 

[Timerover51]

The point being made about your homebrew, timerover, is that you seem to not be restricting the character to what the character should know, instead making it about what the player knows. This seems in contradiction to the idea of role-playing, where you can be something you're not IRL.

Okay, let us look at if from the other way. Assume that I am playing a Merchant character and finish up with Bribery-2 and Streetwise-2. I personally have a very low opinion of bribery, and of people who solicit or take bribes. Am I going to role-play a character trying to bribe someone, no. When it comes to Streetwise, I neither smoke, drink, or frequent bars. When it comes to small talk, normally, I do very little talking If asked to role-play someone with a Streetwise skill, I have not the foggiest idea or for that matter, the interest, in trying to determine what that would be. The short adventure Exit Visa would be a major problem for me as a player because, quite simply, I have no real world knowledge of skills presumed to be useful. If the Game Master says that I have to role-play that type of skill, I pick up my dice and leave. I have no interest whatsoever in roleplaying something that outside of my real life. That also cuts both ways, in that as a Game Master, someone trying to use Bribery or Streetwise when I am on the receiving end acting as the target is going to have major problems.

And as you said, it is MY homebrew. I am not asking anyone else to follow it, I am saying that is how I run things. I was under the assumption that the title to the thread was In My Traveller Universe, concerning what parts of Traveller that a person uses or does not use. I view Traveller as I view as I view any role-playing game, a set of guidelines, not canon to be followed rigidly.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

timerover, your point has *nothing* to do with canon vs rules (guidelines). It has to do with your limited view of what you can role-play or referee. (It is your game, so I hope you and your friends have fun at it.)

I have no interest whatsoever in roleplaying something that outside of my real life.

Do you have a type-S tucked away in your garage somewhere? o: Hmmmm... where did I put that number for the Air Force guys at Roswell?

 

[McPerth]

Okay, let us look at if from the other way. Assume that I am playing a Merchant character and finish up with Bribery-2 and Streetwise-2. I personally have a very low opinion of bribery, and of people who solicit or take bribes. Am I going to role-play a character trying to bribe someone, no. When it comes to Streetwise, I neither smoke, drink, or frequent bars. When it comes to small talk, normally, I do very little talking If asked to role-play someone with a Streetwise skill, I have not the foggiest idea or for that matter, the interest, in trying to determine what that would be.

In this case I'd personally sugest you not to play this character, for the sake of fun for all the party.

The short adventure Exit Visa would be a major problem for me as a player because, quite simply, I have no real world knowledge of skills presumed to be useful. If the Game Master says that I have to role-play that type of skill, I pick up my dice and leave.

(...)

I have no interest whatsoever in roleplaying something that outside of my real life.

And its Ok as long as you and your co-players have fun in it, but in RPG you use to assume a rol (hence the name), and this can be quite different from you own. That's why characters are described instead of the players acting by themselves.

IMHO RPG needs some capacity as actor, and what you say seems to me as an actor who can only play one kind or rol: he may survive and even make good plays, but he would be unlikely to win an Oscar.

And that does not mean that each player wouldn't play better one kind of character than another, but I feel important to play the character, not the player (to play the player, we have real world, and I guess most of us play RPG to escape from it for a while).

 

[Timerover51]

timerover, your point has *nothing* to do with canon vs rules (guidelines). It has to do with your limited view of what you can role-play or referee. (It is your game, so I hope you and your friends have fun at it.)

Having several friends who have dealt with things like bribery on a periodic basis, and in a couple of cases had to wait 18 months before the US Embassy finally got their household goods shipments through customs, yes, I have a limited view of what I will play or allow in a game. There is this thing called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act which does exist in the real world that I have to pay attention too. Am I going to encourage players in my game to do things which in the real world would result in prison time? Not really.

Do you have a type-S tucked away in your garage somewhere? o: Hmmmm... where did I put that number for the Air Force guys at Roswell?

At one time I was doing rocket mass-ratios in my head, but I have gotten lazy and now us a calculator. The Air Force unit that used to investigate UFO reports was Project Blue Book, first based at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton. A Type S would have come under their jurisdiction if they still existed and is also a piece of equipment. I believe the discussion is about using real world knowledge of the player in the game, even it is not part of his skill characteristics. What would you do if you had someone with a pilot's license in the game and needed someone with Air Raft as a skill, when none of the PC had that skill in their game background?

 

[Timerover51]

In this case I'd personally sugest you not to play this character, for the sake of fun for all the party.

I would not, and probably ask for re-rolling the characteristic. If those appear for someone in my game, they are re-rolled, at least the bribery one is, as a matter of course. I do know some people who are quite competent at Streetwise.

And its Ok as long as you and your co-players have fun in it, but in RPG you use to assume a rol (hence the name), and this can be quite different from you own. That's why characters are described instead of the players acting by themselves.

IMHO RPG needs some capacity as actor, and what you say seems to me as an actor who can only play one kind or rol: he may survive and even make good plays, but he would be unlikely to win an Oscar.

And that does not mean that each player wouldn't play better one kind of character than another, but I feel important to play the character, not the player (to play the player, we have real world, and I guess most of us play RPG to escape from it for a while).

Role-playing a physically active and mobile individual is assuming a role for me. As for acting in general, I am a lousy actor but a good writer. Which is probably why I much prefer reading to watching TV. As for playing a character, no player is going to be good at playing every type of career in Traveller, and the player is always going to bring his/her real world values and knowledge into the game. How it integrate those real world values and knowledge into the game is part of the question at hand. The other part is how widely should the established lists of skill values be interpreted.

 

[rancke]

Having several friends who have dealt with things like bribery on a periodic basis, and in a couple of cases had to wait 18 months before the US Embassy finally got their household goods shipments through customs, yes, I have a limited view of what I will play or allow in a game. There is this thing called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act which does exist in the real world that I have to pay attention too. Am I going to encourage players in my game to do things which in the real world would result in prison time? Not really.

I don't see why not. After all, it's not the real world. That's why they call it roleplaying.

Would I like to sleep in the forest, rob from the rich and give to the poor? Not me. And i'm pretty sure I'd be really bad at it. But I see absolutely no reason why that should prevent me from playing Robin Hood or one of his merry men in a role-playing campaign. (Or an SF version of same, to keep it Traveller-relevant).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Having several friends who have dealt with things like bribery on a periodic basis, and in a couple of cases had to wait 18 months before the US Embassy finally got their household goods shipments through customs, yes, I have a limited view of what I will play or allow in a game. There is this thing called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act which does exist in the real world that I have to pay attention too. Am I going to encourage players in my game to do things which in the real world would result in prison time? Not really.

Most missions presented in Travelelr adventures are of doubious legality and could as well end with the characters in prision...

OTOH, in some societies bribery is an everyday's thing, and few go to prision for it.

What would you do if you had someone with a pilot's license in the game and needed someone with Air Raft as a skill, when none of the PC had that skill in their game background?

And what would you do in RW if you need someone to pilot a Helicopter and you have no pilot among your group? I guess look for another solution not involving the helicopter... or risk 'enduring chargen again'.

I would not, and probably ask for re-rolling the characteristic. If those appear for someone in my game, they are re-rolled, at least the bribery one is, as a matter of course. I do know some people who are quite competent at Streetwise.

Then I'd suggest to wash out the bribery skill from your play, exchanging it for another one.

Role-playing a physically active and mobile individual is assuming a role for me. As for acting in general, I am a lousy actor but a good writer. Which is probably why I much prefer reading to watching TV.

Then I guess you're probably better referee than player, and yet better adventure writer than referee.

As for playing a character, no player is going to be good at playing every type of career in Traveller, and the player is always going to bring his/her real world values and knowledge into the game. How it integrate those real world values and knowledge into the game is part of the question at hand. The other part is how widely should the established lists of skill values be interpreted.

True, most skills must be interpreted in their true values, but if your character has no medical skill, IMHO, allowing him to act as a doctor just because the player is cathedratic in the Medical University would be poor roleplaying.

 

[Timerover51]

I don't see why not. After all, it's not the real world. That's why they call it roleplaying.

Would I like to sleep in the forest, rob from the rich and give to the poor? Not me. And i'm pretty sure I'd be really bad at it. But I see absolutely no reason why that should prevent me from playing Robin Hood or one of his merry men in a role-playing campaign. (Or an SF version of same, to keep it Traveller-relevant).


Hans

Hmmm, not the real world. I co-published a book that circulates in Europe including Germany. We had to take a swastika off of every page in the book so that it could be sold in Germany. Could you legally role-play in Germany a campaign based on and using the symbols of the Third Reich? Somehow, I sort of doubt that. The real world does impact role-playing.