Should the OTU UWP Data be Updated?

[BetterThanLife]

No, it fixes an old error, because the original assignment of stars to systems was done without reference to the UWPs of the mainworld. Someone just took a list of percentage distribution of stars and randomly assigned a star to each UWP. Which gave you scores of worlds with breathable atmospheres orbiting tidelocked around M class stars. I'm as fond of tidelocked worlds as the next guy, but I really think that entirely too many for fun.

(Actually, it was even worse by CT/MT/TNE/T4 rules. There you had scores of worlds with breathable atmospheres orbiting outside the life zone. You see, in Book 8 and its descendants, most M-class stars only have outer orbits.)

Just think of it as the Traveller Universe either not being the same as our universe (the flatness of the galaxy is another clue ) or that Traveller maps ignore a lot of stars. Including a lot of those worthless ones with Class M stars.


Hans

What would you do with Rylanor/Fulacin 0306 A674210 D? You have a Class A High Tech Starport on the Spinward Main with a population so small they couldn't supply the service industry to support a Starport, much less the Starport in the first place. Yet the System features prominently in Adventures and the History of the Marches.

 

[robject]

What would you do with Rhylanor/Fulacin 0306 A674210 D? You have a Class A High Tech Starport on the Spinward Main with a population so small they couldn't supply the service industry to support a Starport, much less the Starport in the first place. Yet the System features prominently in Adventures and the History of the Marches.

...and we know why it is what it is (see Twilight's Peak)! This is obviously established and heavily-used material, and therefore isn't worth changing. A similar starport would be Iderati. It's not a trade hub.

And, this is an indicator that there are many kinds of starports. Each one may fit a different need. I'd not change one starport code, nor would I ever tie it to population.

Now, tying its size to population, maybe. But that's interpretation. But if it's an 'A', then it can fill the tank with unleaded, plug your ship into a diagnostic computer and swap out parts. Maybe you'll even have to wait for a part to be delivered from two jumps away. Given 24 months max (or whatever) to get all of the parts shipped in, it can put a ship together. Maybe it can't do any better than that. But it can fulfill its rating's requirements.

At that point, you might ask what the difference is between starports, and why bother rating them, if they could all just order parts off the XBoat route and plug them in? I suppose the difference is like the difference between auto service stations, but I don't know. Some sell gas, some also change oil, some also replace tires and radiators and do state inspections, some also do custom bodywork and engines, etc.

 

[captainjack]

I'm sure that this whole business will pass into the common memory in the same way that I get hate mail for the stupid Dandelions I made up for Behind the Claw... even though Marc Miller did them for The Traveller Adventure.

Heck, I love those guys. My players in the scout service more than once have had to take orders from one when their boss is away from base. Now that is fun stuff.

 

[Foxroe]

Well, canon aside, when I look at a UWP like A674210-D, I think “lawless star-town, with a large transient population, but a very small permanent population that supports the starport”. Perhaps some would think that this description would get boring after a half-dozen or so similar UWP’s, but there’s always subtle differences (size, hydro, atmo, government)... and my imagination is still furtive enough to make each world distinctly flavored for the players.

But hey, YMMV.

-Fox

 

[rancke]

What would you do with Rylanor/Fulacin 0306 A674210 D? You have a Class A High Tech Starport on the Spinward Main with a population so small they couldn't supply the service industry to support a Starport, much less the Starport in the first place. Yet the System features prominently in Adventures and the History of the Marches.

That depends on the date. If it's before the 5FW, I'd make it a Class A starport that mysteriously and unaccountably exists there. If it's after 5FW, I'd make it a Class E starport (well, maybe Class D or C -- depends on whether or not someone pumped more money into MagnetorDynamics) with lots of empty, unused shipyard buildings. Yes, that means that I think The Spinward Marches Campaign ought to have changed the starport rating. Sadly, that sort of "things change over time" realism apparently didn't rate very high at the time. (That was one of the things I really liked about Behind the Claw, BTW -- they tried to update some things (Though unaccountably they didn't update Fulacin, did they? I forget.)).


Hans

 

[captainjack]

No, it fixes an old error, <snip for brevity>
Just think of it as the Traveller Universe either not being the same as our universe (the flatness of the galaxy is another clue ) or that Traveller maps ignore a lot of stars. Including a lot of those worthless ones with Class M stars.


Hans

The comment about M class dwarfs is one I'm familiar with. The fact that about every other star in the RLU (real-life universe, yet another setting with canon issues) is one is.....incovenient.

My fix for years has been that 1. they very seldom have useful planets, so who goes there or cares about em, and 2. the same deeply mysterious jumpspace phenomenon that allows a 2-D map (and volumetric effects that approximate gravity, and FTL and ETC) makes travel to them hard almost to the point of impossibility. Small, cool, and hell, red , makes the barrier between normal and jumpspace essentially impervious.* STL colonization is another matter, but that is much rarer since FTL, and explains a few of the oddities. So, they're on on the map, which in a massive convenience, only has about 1/2 the stellar density of the RLU (this from EDG himself..and double checked by me, I admit when it looked like such a good fit.)

Heck, perhaps they're ignored because we know that red sun klife invariably gains super powers under other suns, and who wants them around ? Damn Kryptonians are bad enough, you should meet the Argonians.....


Plus, what Hans said above about stuffing a stellar distribution table onto the sector data confirms a long held suspicion about how it was done.

*Yes, smarty-pants, I do allow deepspace jumps -the effect, whatever it is, is essentially non-continuous, or at least far more complicated than a second-order function (f =x^2 for instance). The rifts are areas of weak interface with no stars within a decent radius (say 1/3 LY ?).

 

[Foxroe]

Heck, I love those guys. My players in the scout service more than once have had to take orders from one when their boss is away from base. Now that is fun stuff.

If Dandelions aren’t “cool” enough for you, you can always run them like Audrey II from “Little Shop of Horrors”… that should garner a little more respect. :devil:

-Fox

 

[Plankowner]

I voted to change them, but like many other people, I think that published written discriptions should trump a "random" system.

My concern is the physical side of things and what to do about differences between versions of the sector.

Between the LBB, The Spinward Marches Campaign and Behind the Claw, there are differences in the physical data of some (not many but some) worlds. Those have to be "fixed" on version has to be selected as correct, but no matter which one you pick, somone will say it is the wrong one.

 

[Supplement Four]

As someone who has actually been allowed to make some changes (population levels of some of the Sword Worlds), I agree completely with Bill. Some should be changed, some shouldn't.

I need to word this gently, because I mean it as fact (factually speaking about my opinion, that is) and not as a basis to upset you (Hans) or start a flamewar.

So, read my comments with that in mind. They're not meant to offend.

But, what you've said here is exactly why I'm against any changes. I've been in discussions with you, Hans. And, while I in no way mean this as disrepectful, I just plain don't agree with you on a lot of issues, especially when it comes to UWPs and trade routes and such.

So, what we have, from my perspective, is someone who I think is "wrong" on this very issue changing OTU world data.

I just plain don't want that to happen.

I don't have anything against Hans. I like the dude. I've exchanged friendly banter around the TML and this forum for years. But, I find myself not agreeing with him a lot on this very issue.

It just seems plain "wrong" to change OTU data. Even the pop codes.

 

[jrmapes]

If the Atmosphere/Hydro is off because the size is too small, fine, change the size. If the star type would make it impossible for native life to exist on a world where canon says it does, ok fix it. Otherwise I don't think it should be changed. The changes I support don't make much difference at all to the setting itself and 'fix' the more egregious of the 'daft' UWPs to be found.

I will be voting after this post, in the affirm to make the changes.

From the conversations I am aware of, what Hunter has said above is what the plan is - and IIRC it will be only a few systems (three maybe four) - at least that is what I have read about. If there are more changes planned then I am not privy to them (nor would I be under most circumstances). It is also my understanding that the changes will only affect the physical side of the UWPs correcting those problems.

Of course Mongoose and the writers have the rights now to go far beyond and make drastic changes if they so chose - but in the (public) discussions I am aware of the writers are not going that extreme route and I really doubt he would.

As I said I am voting in the affirm to make the changes and what Hunter and a few others have said is the reason. There are obvious broken worlds on the physical stat side. Further, I would really hate the idea of someone changing the social stats since that IMO has a far more reaching effect in what we have come to know about the worlds in the OTU. For me it wouldn't be a huge leap to have the changes in an official publication since I have already made many of the changes that are being discussed in my TU. But I guarantee I would be at the front of the mob with pitchfork and torch in hand if I thought for a second that someone - anyone - was going to start making changes willy nilly just for the heck of it.

As it has been mentioned, no matter the changes, not everyone will like them - just like it has always been since the "expanded" LBBs started coming out, to when MT came out to so forth and so on till now with MGT and T5 and always will be when future versions are published.

Jerry

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well, canon aside, when I look at a UWP like A674210-D, I think “lawless star-town, with a large transient population, but a very small permanent population that supports the starport”. Perhaps some would think that this description would get boring after a half-dozen or so similar UWP’s, but there’s always subtle differences (size, hydro, atmo, government)... and my imagination is still furtive enough to make each world distinctly flavored for the players.

But hey, YMMV.

-Fox

But that isn't the description of the system. And a population, of less than 100 on one of the few Class A Starports along a major trade route would have a difficult time running the restaurants and bars to serve those transients. (Forget about actually running the Low Port and the High Port.) However because this planet and its situation features prominently in the History of the Spinward Marches and is the key planet in a published adventure, can you really justify changing it in the first place? YOu are talking about a total population of, at most, 99 people. You need 30 to open a single restaurant that serves 3 meals a day and has a reasonable number of diners.

 

[Renaissance Man]

But that isn't the description of the system. And a population, of less than 100 on one of the few Class A Starports along a major trade route would have a difficult time running the restaurants and bars to serve those transients. (Forget about actually running the Low Port and the High Port.) However because this planet and its situation features prominently in the History of the Spinward Marches and is the key planet in a published adventure, can you really justify changing it in the first place? YOu are talking about a total population of, at most, 99 people. You need 30 to open a single restaurant that serves 3 meals a day and has a reasonable number of diners.

Ah, what a perfect place for us to put some artificials (robots, androids). An automated starport world... sort of like Westworld in space :devil:

 

[hunter]

But that isn't the description of the system. And a population, of less than 100

A POP of 2 is 100-999 not 10-99

 

[MJD]

"Well, in that case why don't I ask you what happened to the MongTrav UWP thread over on Avenger after I (as Pierce Inverarity) posted an utterly non-inflammatory statement voicing my skepticism about that project?

Do you delete threads now, MJD?

What gives?"

Congratulations, you win a coconut for being the first person to ask *me* what's happening.

First, the thread. One of our mods moved it without asking me first (not that I mind) into the private development area we have for such things. It pribably should have been there all along but I put it in the wrong place at the start.

Second, the project. I'll discuss that on the Avenger boards if anyone thinks to ask.

Third, deleteing threads. No, I don't. Not yet anyhow. I'd probably screw up and destroy the boards. As stated above it was put where it should have been all along.

 

[BetterThanLife]

A POP of 2 is 100-999 not 10-99

I stand corrected.

The digit indicating population is an exponent of 10. This may be viewed as the number of zeros following a one. Thus a population digit of 6 indicates a population of approximately 1,000,000.

So according to Book 3, a Population code of 2 indicates approximately 100 people, not up to 1,000 people. However LBB6 lists a Pop code of 2 as Hundreds of inhabitants, so we have one of those inconsistencies in the rules.

In any event, I still say you can't run the service industry to support a Class A Starport (with all that entails) on a busy trade route (The Spinward Main) with a Pop code of 2. Then you still have enough people to maintain the Starport, man the rescue boats, build starships, build non-starships, repair both, CHI (Customs, Health and Imigration), security and keep people from poaching water on the surface.

It is obviously a bad UWP. (And I have seen Class A Starports with a population number of 1.)

 

[hunter]

I stand corrected.

So according to Book 3, a Population code of 2 indicates approximately 100 people, not up to 1,000 people. However LBB6 lists a Pop code of 2 as Hundreds of inhabitants, so we have one of those inconsistencies in the rules.

It's clarified later under Population Density (Bk 3, pg 9) and the table (Bk 3, pg 11)

The pop digit is the minimum of the range available.

 

[hunter]

In any event, I still say you can't run the service industry to support a Class A Starport (with all that entails) on a busy trade route (The Spinward Main) with a Pop code of 2. Then you still have enough people to maintain the Starport, man the rescue boats, build starships, build non-starships, repair both, CHI (Customs, Health and Imigration), security and keep people from poaching water on the surface.

Robots easily fill any shortfall in 'live' labor.

 

[robject]

But that isn't the description of the system.

The starport is what it is.

100 to 999 people, on a world with a Class A starport.

Along a jump-1 main, not nec. a major trade route. Not major, because the main is sort of a grungy backwater. Megacorps don't run through there. It almost takes a subsidy to make money (unless you own your ship or have it on extended loan).

Ergo, there aren't restaurants and bars. Well, maybe a greasy spoon. Or maybe just a sandwich vending machine, serving Basic or MRE's leftover from the Fourth Frontier War.

It's obviously not intended for tourism, nor for local development. There must be another purpose for this starport. Two purposes, since one is covert.

This is not supposed to be a busy, bustling starport. It's quiet... too quiet...

 

[sfchbryan]

Whenever I see a Type A starport on a low TL or low POP world, I have assumed that either the Imperium put one there for their use (Military or Commercial Exploitation) or one of the megacorps put a facility there because certain raw materials (lanthanum) were in system & it was easier to build a starport in that location vs. building extraction facilities & then shipping them out.

This is why I can't take MGT's idea of adjusting populations or TL to match starports seriously.

They just don't get the fact that starports DO NOT HAVE TO BE SUPPORTED BY THE LOCAL POPULATION. There just has to be a need for a starport.
All MGT would have to do is just look around this planet.

Now that I have that off my chest, I feel much better.

 

[Antony]

Whereas it is possible to justify most UWPs the amount of justification across the OTU appears to be immense. In sectors such as Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim you would probably just be limited to correcting errors which crept in. If looking at the rest of published OTU, T4s Imperial Survey for example every UWP had a problem. These may as well be redone. So for this survey really I would go for a mix. Fixing obvious errors in Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim but redoing them in other (less popular?) official sectors.