Ship's of the Gateway Sector Navies

[Liam Devlin]

Good evening/ morning-whatever time it is there for you all there...

Ships of the Gateway Navies moved here:
http://www.traveller.comstar-games.com/viewtopic.php?t=53

 

[jwdh71]

Very cool designs, Liam. Nicely done for the tech level of design... Are you using them in a adventure set in or near the HPA?

 

[Liam Devlin]

jwdh 71,
Sir.../me bows. Thank youse! And, Thank you, again!
I'm using them IMTU...as for in an adventure...
I'll run the scenario first, then write it up. SO
if you wish to borrey it--be my guest!
It was designed with Open Book rules...after all!

 

[Michael Taylor]

Hi Liam

Why dont you just assume TL-b Jump-2 drives are imported? That's how I explain Gateway's shipyards being able to build TL-11 ships when the world itself is only TL-A...

 

[mike wightman]

[tongue in cheek]Liam may have stumbled onto an answer to that age old problem "how can a TL9 world build a jump 4 ship" - which they can... in CT.

Answer - the tables in HG/MT/T20 are for TL of discovery. Once the principles of higher jump number have been discovered they can be easily built at a lower TL (what - no air/raft outside your house yet ).

The lower TL jump drives are much bigger though, as Liam suggests. A jump 2 drive built at TL9 or 10 requires twice the jump drive tonnage. A jump 3 drive built at less than TL12 requires three times the jump drive tonnage etc.

This explains why "standard drives" in LBB2 are so much larger than HG/T20 jump drives

[/tongue in cheek]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually Sigg, Laim, that is a very elegant solution. I like it.

Though I think imported parts make more sense, even with that solution. But for those xenophobic types out there....

Allow a Naval jumpdrive increase in capacity one TL up but, (state of the art, prototype type ship) double the size of the engine and increase the fuel requirements. Most countries will still import but it gives them a reason to build their own and work on improving their TL.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[tongue in cheek]Liam may have stumbled onto an answer to that age old problem "how can a TL9 world build a jump 4 ship" - which they can... in CT.

Answer - the tables in HG/MT/T20 are for TL of discovery. Once the principles of higher jump number have been discovered they can be easily built at a lower TL (what - no air/raft outside your house yet ).

The lower TL jump drives are much bigger though, as Liam suggests. A jump 2 drive built at TL9 or 10 requires twice the jump drive tonnage. A jump 3 drive built at less than TL12 requires three times the jump drive tonnage etc.

This explains why "standard drives" in LBB2 are so much larger than HG/T20 jump drives

[/tongue in cheek]

 

[graden1]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually Sigg, Laim, that is a very elegant solution. I like it.

Though I think imported parts make more sense, even with that solution. But for those xenophobic types out there....

Allow a Naval jumpdrive increase in capacity one TL up but, (state of the art, prototype type ship) double the size of the engine and increase the fuel requirements. Most countries will still import but it gives them a reason to build their own and work on improving their TL.

If there's anyone "xenophobic" in Gateway, it's the HPA, so I'm inclined to think this design makes a lot of sense for them. It also makes them a more credible threat to the Plavian League than I would have previously thought! Nice work.

XO

 

[BetterThanLife]

GIving it some more thought.

With all the fuel it is already going to use, instead of twice the fuel load perhaps half again as much fuel for the early next level jump drives. That would at least make these prototype drives possible through Jump-4.

Originally posted by Xavier Onassis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually Sigg, Laim, that is a very elegant solution. I like it.

Though I think imported parts make more sense, even with that solution. But for those xenophobic types out there....

Allow a Naval jumpdrive increase in capacity one TL up but, (state of the art, prototype type ship) double the size of the engine and increase the fuel requirements. Most countries will still import but it gives them a reason to build their own and work on improving their TL.

If there's anyone "xenophobic" in Gateway, it's the HPA, so I'm inclined to think this design makes a lot of sense for them. It also makes them a more credible threat to the Plavian League than I would have previously thought! Nice work.

XO </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[graden1]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
GIving it some more thought.

With all the fuel it is already going to use, instead of twice the fuel load perhaps half again as much fuel for the early next level jump drives. That would at least make these prototype drives possible through Jump-4.

For my purposes, doubling the fuel requirement is okay. After all, the greatest benefit goes to the TL-A shipbuilders who need J2 ships, and this rule makes that (barely) possible. Beyond that, I'd just as soon not make it too easy, or everyone would be doing it. Then this 'variant rule' would become a standard option. However, it works very well for special cases, such as totalitarian nut-jobs (like the HPA) trying to take over backwater sectors with low stellar density (like Gateway) when their tech level normally wouldn't be up to the task.

But if that works for your campaign, enjoy.

XO

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually I am only allowing going up one Tech Level. So if their max is Jump-1 then Jump-2 is all they will get out of this idea. And it will still be much more effecient to import parts or ships.

Originally posted by Xavier Onassis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
GIving it some more thought.

With all the fuel it is already going to use, instead of twice the fuel load perhaps half again as much fuel for the early next level jump drives. That would at least make these prototype drives possible through Jump-4.

For my purposes, doubling the fuel requirement is okay. After all, the greatest benefit goes to the TL-A shipbuilders who need J2 ships, and this rule makes that (barely) possible. Beyond that, I'd just as soon not make it too easy, or everyone would be doing it. Then this 'variant rule' would become a standard option. However, it works very well for special cases, such as totalitarian nut-jobs (like the HPA) trying to take over backwater sectors with low stellar density (like Gateway) when their tech level normally wouldn't be up to the task.

But if that works for your campaign, enjoy.

XO </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[daibaka]

I lurve this idea! Consider it purloined for my much considered and occasionally worked upon campaign! The simplicity of increasing the fuel and tonnage requirements to match the various Jump drives makes sense to me (now watch some bugger with a spreadsheet come along and spoil my day!).

I do think there should be a limit to how far a lower tech civilisation should be able to go with "reverse engineering" higher jump-capability drives than their normal allowance, however. But won't the inefficiencies of constructing vessels to hold such massive drives (and their requisite fuel) be a limiting factor itself? At what point does it become unfeasible for a TL-A shipbuilder to mount reverse engineered jumpdrive? J3? J4? (Looks like I might need that spreadsheet after all...)

 

[mike wightman]

Native computer technology could still be the limiting factor.
A TL10 world can only build up to a model 4 computer and hence is limited to jump 4 max, TL11 jump 5 max, TL12 could build up to a jump 6 drive.

Why they can't build bigger, more capable computers is a question for another time

By the way, here are the jump drive %'s by TL I would use for "standard" CT jump drives, i.e. reverse engineered etc.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> TL10 J1 J2 J3 J4
hull% 2 6 12 20
.
TL11 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5
hull% 2 3 8 15 24
.
TL12 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6
hull% 2 3 4 10 18 28
.
TL13 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6
hull% 2 3 4 5 12 21
.
TL14 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6
hull% 2 3 4 5 6 14
.
TL15 J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6
hull% 2 3 4 5 6 7</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[mike wightman]

And I've just noticed that according to 2nd edition LBB2 the maximum jump number is limited to no higher than computer model.
So a TL9 shipyard could only build up to jump 3.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Hi Liam

Why dont you just assume TL-b Jump-2 drives are imported? That's how I explain Gateway's shipyards being able to build TL-11 ships when the world itself is only TL-A...

-----------------------------------------------
Ah Micheal!
That would be too easy! Besides...who is going to admit they do trade in J-2 drives with the likes of the HPA? Now seized from othe folks starships--I can see. then the HPA boojums get to retro-engineer the devils and try to make ones that work for them! [and then to the size of their ships!]
Whatever works for you, though! I've seen it argued both ways. So I threw me hat in the ring--voila! responses! Some GM's might prefer the well its TL-A majority tech on the planet, but their Starport shipbuilding is at B. SURE! Works for the OTU. But for thems that take the UWP alphanumerics at "face value", this is another solution.
Thanks for responding Micheal!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Xavier Onassis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually Sigg, Laim, that is a very elegant solution. I like it.

Though I think imported parts make more sense, even with that solution. But for those xenophobic types out there....

Allow a Naval jumpdrive increase in capacity one TL up but, (state of the art, prototype type ship) double the size of the engine and increase the fuel requirements. Most countries will still import but it gives them a reason to build their own and work on improving their TL.

If there's anyone "xenophobic" in Gateway, it's the HPA, so I'm inclined to think this design makes a lot of sense for them. It also makes them a more credible threat to the Plavian League than I would have previously thought! Nice work.

XO </font>[/QUOTE]------------------------------------------------
thank you XO!
In counter-response for the Gateway/ Galian federation--YES! they do have heavy trade relations with the Imperium, and others [although that sticky Dead Space region puts a damper on their trading through that area]. It also stands to reason with purchasing an 800dton Lorimar-class TL-D Merchant cruiser (EA-Merchant cruiser), and two TL-D 1kton Quasar-class Scouts for their navy that the GF do "shop" around for starships! And with a lack of TL-D worlds within the GF--guess they buy Imperial Spare parts too, huh? OF COURSE!
The HPA AFAIK from OTU, and the QLI pdf Gateway Domain don't enjoy such cordial relations with the Imperium--much less any of their neighboring States!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by daibaka:
I lurve this idea! Consider it purloined for my much considered and occasionally worked upon campaign! The simplicity of increasing the fuel and tonnage requirements to match the various Jump drives makes sense to me (now watch some bugger with a spreadsheet come along and spoil my day!).
-------------------------------------------------
Allow me to hold the door as you purloin! Actually, its quite simple-multiple J-1 engines, synchronized of course, the tankage to pull off 2 parsecs, and a Power plant to run them all.

I do think there should be a limit to how far a lower tech civilisation should be able to go with "reverse engineering" higher jump-capability drives than their normal allowance, however. But won't the inefficiencies of constructing vessels to hold such massive drives (and their requisite fuel) be a limiting factor itself? At what point does it become unfeasible for a TL-A shipbuilder to mount reverse engineered jumpdrive? J3? J4? (Looks like I might need that spreadsheet after all...)

------------------------------------------------
well, in reverse engineering the process to have TL-A worlds make better Jay drives, I'd have to say offhand [me has no calculator handy now-drat], their's are larger, and more expensive than the ones they currently can produce, of course, and larger than say one made by a TL-B, C, D, Or E tech world's. Converting old CT/ HG stuff on this topic would be a start.

Trouble with that logic in Gateway Sector is, the sole TL-F world, Alphaaric--doesn't make Starships [hence no TL-F jump drives from them]! An offworld group of folk there does (and not very big ships it seems).
The Akeed I'm sure conduct some trade in technology [TL-D] but it doesn't look like their building power plants for sale to the HPA either, or anyone else for that matter.
Its those TL-C states, and Imperial trade getting those higher power plants and drives and computers about!--Reasons for interstellar trade, and piracy--both of which there are plenty in the Sector. <grins>

 

[Liam Devlin]

That concludes what I have on hand for the HPA Navy. I did plan to do some monitors for the Reserve fleet at GRANTH, but I'll hold off a bit on them for now.

 

[Jame]

Mayhap some of my book-2 designs would be useful for Gateway Navies (even if requiring someone go back and redo them for HG/T20)?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Mayhap. They aren't technologically better than Imperial ships, and their computer model tech limits limits the gross tonnage they can build by the THB, Jame, so give it a whirl, I say. No need for me to do ALL of it! <grins>

Read the section in the Gateway Domain campaign book that covers the militaries of the regions--therein lies the clues--are they a cruiser heavy doctrinal navy? Do they have defensive strategies? [Like the PLavian League--which is no only just getting some faster 4G TL-11 ships bult for pursuit--but is no more than a squadron in size]...

then, build to fit their OTU verbal descriptions..

Liam

 

[Jame]

Um, one problem - I don't have the THB! Yet, anyways - I have a job interview tomorrow, and if that works out (shoo, bad spirits! SHOO!) I can get it. I'd suggest the Superraider Frigate and the Random Castle Light Carrier for anyone who'd be willing to convert before me, though.