Ship's Computer and underpowered M-Drive questions

[apoc527]

Ok, so we're wondering about a few things regarding computers and power plants on starships in T20. First, the easy one-

1. Can I underpower my M-drives to get a lower acceleration, but saving EPs? An example would be a standard scout ship with 2-G Maneuver drives. Can these be underpowered with only .5 EP per unit (2 units = 1 EP) and fly at only 1-G? Seems to me this was probably intended, since all the drives say that their rating is the "MAXIMUM" acceleration. This implies that they can adjust for any acceleration between 0 and this rating. In space, I can't think of any reason besides low velocity docking maneuvers to go at anything less than your maximum acceleration with the only exception being when you want to route power to fire weapons and still retain some amount of Agility.

2) Ok, this is more confusing. The first question is what does it mean in the SHIP design section when it says that a Model/1 BIS computer has "5 CPU" free? How does this convert into PPs to run programs? What programs is this already assumed to be running?

How does the Model/1 computer in the ship design section compare with the Model/1 Ship's Computer in the standard designs chapter? Is it the same thing? (looks that way to me...but how do you know how many PP it has left?) Finally, what does the (x4) mean in the CPU column for the Ship's Computer on pg 282?

Thanks!

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning apoc527,

I've been pondering how to respond to both questions and I just might be able to help out. The operative word is might.

Originally posted by apoc527:
Ok, so we're wondering about a few things regarding computers and power plants on starships in T20. First, the easy one-

1. Can I underpower my M-drives to get a lower acceleration, but saving EPs? An example would be a standard scout ship with 2-G Maneuver drives. Can these be underpowered with only .5 EP per unit (2 units = 1 EP) and fly at only 1-G? Seems to me this was probably intended, since all the drives say that their rating is the "MAXIMUM" acceleration. This implies that they can adjust for any acceleration between 0 and this rating. In space, I can't think of any reason besides low velocity docking maneuvers to go at anything less than your maximum acceleration with the only exception being when you want to route power to fire weapons and still retain some amount of Agility.

I agree with you that a M-drive can be used at lower speeds than their designed maximum and that the required operating power should be reduced. A 2-G M-drive can propel the ship up a maximum of 2-G, which would be drawing maximum power. If you reduce the speed to 1-G, logically you would be drawing half the power. However, this really wouldn't improve agility since the reduction in speed would increase the time taken to complete the a combat maneuver. Although this would allow for more weapons to be fired.

2) Ok, this is more confusing. The first question is what does it mean in the SHIP design section when it says that a Model/1 BIS computer has "5 CPU" free? How does this convert into PPs to run programs?

I am still trying to figure these out. Hopefully I will be able to get back to you soon, or even better someone else will beat me to the answer.

What programs is this already assumed to be running?

The following are the basic programs that I image would be running: Logic, Command, Navigation (from Skills list per rule "Normal Skill" p231), ship systems monitoring program, astrogation, and pilot are just a couple I can think of.

How does the Model/1 computer in the ship design section compare with the Model/1 Ship's Computer in the standard designs chapter?

My observation is that they used different design systems. The Ship's Computer table on page 282 looks like the computers were built probably using a draft of the Computer Design Rules pp223-233. (I think the ones in the book are a different version.) So far as I can see the only items that appear to agree is the Model Type. TL is different if you've checked out the Errata page, all the systems on p282 use an advanced synaptic computer core which is available at TL 13. Okay EP might be considered close if the EP is rounded down after dividing the EP by 10.

Is it the same thing? (looks that way to me...but how do you know how many PP it has left?)

Without having the all the column headers on the Ship's Computer Table on p282 match the headers on the table on p263 I would have to say they are different. The computers on p282 are closer to the computer design sequence, but neither computer table (p263 or p282) appear to be the same. I think there is a thread or two concerning the computer design sequence not matching the table on p282, but I am not sure if there is any mention of the computer design steps used in spacecraft & starshpdesign.

Finally, what does the (x4) mean in the CPU column for the Ship's Computer on pg 282?

Here is my best guess using the Computer design sequence. Firs the Errata Table indicates that all the systems on p282 use an Advanced Synaptic Core. From the Computer Core Table p224 the base CPU Output is 10. The Model/1 has 1000 core units, which means 10 base cpu output x 1,000 units = 10,000 CPU Output. 2,500 x 4 = 10,000. My best guess is that 4 represents the allocated CPU processing to the various components (Core Computer, Flight Avionics, Sensors, and Communications).

 

[apoc527]

Thanks Thomas. That sort of helps. I'm starting to get slightly annoyed by all the contradictions and inconsistencies in the T20 design/combat system for vehicles.

I was reading through it the other day and the sensors are all messed up too. The table gives vastly different values for a few types of sensor compared to the text (Densitometer text vs table comes to mind as a huge difference).

None of this would bother me if someone from QLI would come along and errata the rest of it to that handy-dandy errata page.

Also, a few combat examples would be nice, as I'm slightly confused by a few things.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon apoc527,

After doing some more research I have a better answer for the following part of this question:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How does the Model/1 computer in the ship design section compare with the Model/1 Ship's Computer in the standard designs chapter?

My observation is that they used different design systems. The Ship's Computer table on page 282 looks like the computers were built probably using a draft of the Computer Design Rules pp223-233. (I think the ones in the book are a different version.) So far as I can see the only items that appear to agree is the Model Type. TL is different if you've checked out the Errata page, all the systems on p282 use an advanced synaptic computer core which is available at TL 13. Okay EP might be considered close if the EP is rounded down after dividing the EP by 10. </font>[/QUOTE]My apologies here, my initial answer was incorrect, since I thought, better than the word assumed, that the computers listed on p282 were complete systems. The computer systems listed in the table on p282 are not the same as a computer built using the ship design rules. Further, they are not even complete systems when compared with steps in the Computer Design Sequence (CDS) on pp223-232.

Further analysis indicates that all of the computer models listed in the table on p282 are only the computer cores. The systems on p282 do not appear to include logic programs, command programs, or any of the options found in the CDS. However, the cores listed on p282 appear to have been designed, correctly, using the CDS.

To put my conclusion into simpler terms: The computers on p282 are equal to a personal computer without a keyboard, monitor, operating system, or any other software (like WordPerfect, Excel, or a favorite computer game). A person has just the case that the CPU and large circuit card, called the motherboard or mainboard, and a power supply that is not plugged into the wall.

Rereading the text that accompanies the table on p282 the key operative words are

do not reflect the costs of additional software and interfaces needed for the computer to be used on board a starship.

This fits with the idea that the computer is only the core and not a functional system.

I verified this by checking out the volume (vl) and size (along with the words ton/tonnage all of which appear to have the same meaning as displacement in the starship/spaceship design sequence and defined on p223) of the Model/1 computers listed in the tables on pp 263 and 282. Here is were things get confusing. On:

p282 an Adv. Synaptic Model/1 system with 1,000 core units has a vl of 135.

p263 a Model/1 has a size of 0.1

p224 a single unit of an Adv. Synaptic core has a vl of .135.

To find the vl of 1,000 Adv. Synaptic units multiply .135 by 1,000 or 0.135 x 1,000 = 135 vl, which matches with the vl on p282. Hooray a correlation has been established between the two tables. By multiplying 1000 to cost, EP, and CPU output, okay p282 displays the number differently, all match.

However the vl does not appear to match the size listed on p224. Flipping to p223 Column 2, Line 4 from top, Word 5 from left "This is approximately 14 cubic meters or 1400 volume." Converting size to vl 0.1 x 1400 = 135 vl.

Now tables on p282 and p263 have a common point of reference that also shows that at least some of the CDS is working.

I think it is time to post this hopefully, it clears things up even more. No, I still have not figured how to correlate CPU size to PP size, yet, I was amazed I figured out the above. ;-}

 

[apoc527]

<standing ovation>

That was some excellent work there, Mr. Rux. Quite nice, indeed. Thank you so much! I think that might help.

 

[Jame]

The computers in Traveller have always seemed like underpowered beasts from the 1970s to me. While one could theoretically run a starship, using something more akin to a mainframe version of what I'm using would be more efficient.

I think that what I'm trying to say is that Traveller computers have always seemed underpowered to me.

 

[RabidVargr]

Just think, when they started writing T20, the 1.1 ghz was "hot!" Now that they're done, the 3.2ghz processer is "Hot!" Also remember, that old scout craft you're riding around in is 40-something years old. Of course your ship computer's gonna run like a piece of crap. But do you want to upgrade it to a top of the line...?

RV

Originally posted by Jame:

I think that what I'm trying to say is that Traveller computers have always seemed underpowered to me.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening apoc527,

Thank-you for the ovation, unfortunately there is a slight problem with this line in my earlier post:

Converting size to vl 0.1 x 1400 = 135 vl.

Using 0.1 returns a vl of 140 not 139. The vl should be approximately 0.0964 rounded to the 4th decimal point. I divided 135 by 1400 to get the original answer and my calculator was for set to display two decimal places. Otherwise, the formula is correct. I hate to say this, but I have not a clue of how the Ship's Computers table on p263 figures free CPU Output. Hopefully, one of the authors' of T20 can clear this up for us. Sorry, I only completed a portion of the thread.

 

[apoc527]

I think you've accomplished quite enough for some kind of Computer Design Purple Heart. Good job, Mr. Rux!

 

[snrdg082102]

Originally posted by apoc527:
I think you've accomplished quite enough for some kind of Computer Design Purple Heart. Good job, Mr. Rux!

Thank-you once more for the kind words on my effort to answer the questions posted here. But, could I get a cup of coffee instead.

I have almost finished a partially automated computer design sequence Excel 97 spreadsheet. So far I think the thing is working and the spreadsheet has verified the numbers given for the computers on pp281-283.

I am still sort of plugging away at the Free CPU Output to Total PP. Perhaps the Column header should be Free Total PP.

I still have not figured out how to created a table, so the data below may be confusing. Basically, I took the data for all the computers on the Computer Type & Model Table on p224 and placed them in an Excel spreadsheet. Next, I divided the numbers listed under CPU Req, Total PP, and Max PP into to each other hoping to see a pattern that might give us an answer. Below is the data from one computer.

Computer Model M1
CPU Req (CPU) = 1,000
Total PP (TPP) = 28
Max PP (MPP) = 11
TPP/CPU = 0.028
MTP/CPU = 0.0110
MTP/TPP = 0.39
CPU/TPP = 36

All numbers are rounded up to the next digit.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening apoc527,

I thought I might have a relationship between insert-Free- CPU Output and Total PP figured out, but while typing a reply over on the Errata board I figured out that something I appear to have missed seems to have knocked my theory OTL. Maybe if I throw out what I have you or someone else might see what I am missing.

Step 1. Determine the computer's core characteristics. I'll build the Model/1 M1 on p.282: Starting with the Computer Cores Table on p.224 - Advanced synaptic, with 1,000 core units which results in the following:
Cost: KCr100, Volume: 135vl, EP: 9, and (raw) CPU Output is 10,000 or 2,500 (x4) as per p.282. My thought on why the 10,000 is broken down in four 2,500 blocks is the need to share PP between the flight avionics, sensors, and communications sub-systems.

Step 2: Determine Type & Model from the second table on p.224, in this case we'll select the Model/1 from the Master (Type M1) sub table. Here I'll skip everything but CPU Req and Total Processing Power. CPU Req defined as the (minimum) total amount of raw CPU power that must be available to earn the desired Model/Type rating. Which in this case is 1,000 and we meet with just enough to spare and gives the computer a Total PP of 28 points to use each round.

On the Computer Type/Model table I first divided Total PP into CPU Req. which indicates, I think anyway, that 1 PP = 36 CPU Req. (rounded up from 35.71). This would mean that there are no spare PPs, or at least enough to run programs with, which doesn't seem right. Next was to divide Total PP by CPU Req. This indicates that 1 CPU Req = .028 PP. To find out how many PPs are avialable in 5 Free CPU units do the following:
5 x .028 x 28 = 3.92 round up to 4 Total PPs free to play with. Problem is that the Model/1 M1 has a CPU Output of 10,000.

As promised and mentioned I'm still plugging away to come up with an answer. My research has created additional coulmns to the Computer Type & Model Table for each entry, which doesn't make for easy calculations.

 

[sandman]

Hi Tom...

I thought I might have a relationship between insert-Free- CPU Output and Total PP figured out, but while typing a reply over on the Errata board I figured out that something I appear to have missed seems to have knocked my theory OTL. Maybe if I throw out what I have you or someone else might see what I am missing.

[snip snip]

As promised and mentioned I'm still plugging away to come up with an answer. My research has created additional coulmns to the Computer Type & Model Table for each entry, which doesn't make for easy calculations.

I've got a solution for everyone here...

I'll use my Trusty Old Amiga as a computer for the ship.

Either that or use the old Microsoft Basic to do the calculations

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Sandman, have you been talking with a person by the name of Richard Aiken (he is a frequent poster on SJG's JTAS boards). On the board for starship and vehicle design they have almost completed a design contest (voting is going on) for nightmare ships. Richard entered a design that has a scavenged, I am reallocated Model/1 Type M1 TL13 computer from a modular cutter jumped up to a bis by grafting on several robot brains. I was intrigued enough that to refine his idea. Using the CDS I figured out, with several E-mails, that in order to achieve the bis rating he would need the following: A Model 9 B9 TL5 computer and 7 Model/1 M1 TL11 robot brains. Interesting computer design.

Next, I am convinced that the column header of "Free CPU Output" should read something like "PP Free" or "Free PP" on Ship's Computers table on p. 263. So with the above statement or unless someone else comes up with a method to translate CPU into PP I admit defeat in solving the puzzle.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello all,

Sandman, have you been talking with a person by the name of Richard Aiken (he is a frequent poster on SJG's JTAS boards). On the board for starship and vehicle design they have almost completed a design contest (voting is going on) for nightmare ships. Richard entered a design that has a scavenged, I am reallocated Model/1 Type M1 TL13 computer from a modular cutter jumped up to a bis by grafting on several robot brains. I was intrigued enough that to refine his idea. Using the CDS I figured out, with several E-mails, that in order to achieve the bis rating he would need the following: A Model 9 B9 TL5 computer and 7 Model/1 M1 TL11 robot brains. Interesting computer design.

Next, I am convinced that the column header of "Free CPU Output" should read something like "PP Free" or "Free PP" on Ship's Computers table on p. 263. So with the above statement or unless someone else comes up with a method to translate CPU into PP I admit defeat in solving the puzzle.

Sorry Thomas, I'm not on SJG JTAS board (Only here and the TML) Richard Aiken's idea seems Cool for a Scavenged, ragtag, jury-rigged computer

As for the "Free CPU Output", I really doubt they're "Free PP". Could have been with lower Models, but if you check out the higher ones (M8 or M9) you clearly see that the "Free PP" would have been staggeringly high: over 2000 (based on p.263 "Ship's Computers" table)

Considering that a Model/9 Expert Computer has less than 200 Total PP (P.224, "Computer Type and Model" table), that would seems quite unlikely. This is supported by numbers on p.282, "Ship's Computer" table, with Model/9 having only 65 PP.

Seems we're back at Square One

 

[snrdg082102]

Sorry Thomas, I'm not on SJG JTAS board (Only here and the TML) Richard Aiken's idea seems Cool for a Scavenged, ragtag, jury-rigged computer

As for the "Free CPU Output", I really doubt they're "Free PP". Could have been with lower Models, but if you check out the higher ones (M8 or M9) you clearly see that the "Free PP" would have been staggeringly high: over 2000 (based on p.263 "Ship's Computers" table)

Considering that a Model/9 Expert Computer has less than 200 Total PP (P.224, "Computer Type and Model" table), that would seems quite unlikely. This is supported by numbers on p.282, "Ship's Computer" table, with Model/9 having only 65 PP.

Seems we're back at Square One

----------------------
Sandman

No problem Sandman, the design comcept was to create a new parties first ship and/or nightmare ship. The "Galactic Guppy" started out as a TL11 pressure hull and fission reactor that the party grafted various salvaged parts onto to make a starship. I think he mentioned he used the T20 rules to design the ship. For my part I just couldn't resist trying to design a system to match his description, but I agree that the concept is cool.

I didn't say I was firmly convinced that the Free CPU Output should've been something to do with PP. That was just a conculsion that suddenly occurred to me. Well, not exactly to the old square one anyway. Didn't we figure out a couple of other things such as the maneuver drive and cleared up a couple of other computer related items?

I am sorry that I have not figured out the relationship between CPU and PP, but I did give sometime to figuring this one out.

 

[alanm]

The free PP listed in the starship design sequence assumes that the jump program is running e.g.a model 1 has 28 totalPP, Jump 1 requires 23PP leaving 5 freePP.
When T20 first came out, there was a lot of discussion about the relationship between the various apparent contradictions in the computer rules.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
No problem Sandman, the design comcept was to create a new parties first ship and/or nightmare ship. The "Galactic Guppy" started out as a TL11 pressure hull and fission reactor that the party grafted various salvaged parts onto to make a starship. I think he mentioned he used the T20 rules to design the ship. For my part I just couldn't resist trying to design a system to match his description, but I agree that the concept is cool.

Aye

I think that ships like that looks like they're nearly organically grown. They feel Lived In, Used, totally and utterly cool.

Just look at Star Wars' Millenium Falcon, Firefly's ship or any other ships that are back from the ScrapYard. They are simply *COOL* for PCs to have

I didn't say I was firmly convinced that the Free CPU Output should've been something to do with PP. That was just a conculsion that suddenly occurred to me. Well, not exactly to the old square one anyway. Didn't we figure out a couple of other things such as the maneuver drive and cleared up a couple of other computer related items?

Maneuver drive? I didn't have any problem with them (should I?). I had problem with the ARMOR calculations.

I am sorry that I have not figured out the relationship between CPU and PP, but I did give sometime to figuring this one out.

Aye, you gave one of the best shot I've seen.

T20 isn't perfect and I hope that RSN we'll have a much better Errata (I hope that Hunter and Martin have noted every erratas that's passing, or else they might loose much of the correction/clarification that's needed)

I'm nearly done reading the whole book and I've verified with my group. They're game for one or two One Shots of Traveller. I just hope it'll be more than one or two (One is a fervent Mechwarrior fan and WILL miss his Mechas...)

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by alan millen:
The free PP listed in the starship design sequence assumes that the jump program is running e.g.a model 1 has 28 totalPP, Jump 1 requires 23PP leaving 5 freePP.
When T20 first came out, there was a lot of discussion about the relationship between the various apparent contradictions in the computer rules.

Unfortunatly, the problem we have isn't "Free PP" per see, rather it's because they have a table listing "Free CPU Output". While it would be correct for the lower models to say Free PP = Free CPU Out., for models 8 and 9 at over 2000 Free CPU Output" it'd be wayyyy too much

That would mean that those models have about 10 times the PP normally associated with Expert Computers of the same rating (model/8-9)

 

[snrdg082102]

Originally posted by Sandman:

Hello Sandman,

I really hope that your players, especially the MechWarrior, like T20 enough to keep your campaign going.

Maneuver drive? I didn't have any problem with them (should I?). I had problem with the ARMOR calculations.

From Sandmans orignal post:
1. Can I underpower my M-drives to get a lower acceleration, but saving EPs? An example would be a standard scout ship with 2-G Maneuver drives. Can these be underpowered with only .5 EP per unit (2 units = 1 EP) and fly at only 1-G?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sandman:

Hello Sandman,

I really hope that your players, especially the MechWarrior, like T20 enough to keep your campaign going.</font>[/QUOTE]I sure hope so. I just *HATE* buying interesting RPG and having no one to play them with. Rift (when it came out), Call of Cthulhu and many others that I have but very rarely been able to play because of lack of players

At least, this group are becoming distressed not being able to play some SF RPG, I think I can see a smallish light at the end of the tunnel