Ship Workshop/Maker Shop

[Garnfellow]

T5 seems to assume that ships can have a workshop or maker shop. Based on the context, I assume this is sort of like a 3D printer that allows the crew to fabricate parts, equipment, etc.

For example, the Kinunir description on Book 2, page 48 notes that the ship has an "amply-equipped Ship’s Locker, a vault for secure storage, an Armory, and a Maker shop [emphasis added] for repair and maintenance supplies." Or Book 2, page 190: "A ship may manufacture its own Fusion Detonators in its workshops using available materials."

However, there are no details on space, power, cost, or capabilities of these shops.

Looking at the index, it appears there is a missing section on Makers and Workshops that was supposed to be on page 79. Has anyone seen anything in past drafts or playtest materials?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would use the default system for anything special, called Fitted Payload (B2 p89), in this case Sophisticated Hold. The Kinunir description specifies the Makers together with other Holds, such as Ship's Locker and Vault.

Note that B2 p86 has the symbols for Workshops next to Labs, a typical Sophisticated Hold.


If we look at the Kinunir specification in T5.10 (B2 p49) it has no specified extra space dedicated specifically to Workshops or Makers, despite the blurb, so it might be a standard part of Engineering (drives).

 

[Garnfellow]

I would use the default system for anything special, called Fitted Payload (B2 p89), in this case Sophisticated Hold. The Kinunir description specifies the Makers together with other Holds, such as Ship's Locker and Vault.

That's a really good catch. If we look at the Murphy, Beowulf, and Daring designs we see they all have ship's lockers (1 ton, MCr0) and mail vaults (1 ton, MCr1). The Kinunir has 6 tons and MCr0 for "Ship’s Locker/ Supply/ Armory/ Vault."

We know a vault costs MCr1, so the cost is probably in error.

If we assume 2 tons are the locker and vault, that leaves 4 tons for the supply (is this the same as the maker shop?) and armory.

Putting everything together I think we can infer that a Maker shop is probably 1-2 tons and costs MCr1 per ton.

An armory, in contrast, is probably a 1-2 ton Specialized Hold -- and if so, maybe costs MCr0?

 

[tjoneslo]

I had a discussion with several people about what the makers were like, and came up with the following

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Maker

The meta page has some rules.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Looks to be a fair representation of the tech.

 

[kilemall]

I had a discussion with several people about what the makers were like, and came up with the following

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Maker

The meta page has some rules.

Whew, that TL limit is pretty steep.

I like the sizing logic, a LOT.

I might override the TL limit, but designate what the maker can and cannot make, and the more expensive or exotic items would require possibly 1 or more specialized makers and/or feedstocks.

For instance a grav lifter module couldn't be made by a vacc suit maker because vacc suits are more a fabric, and would require some different feedstocks then just regular metal.


Along those lines, using your rules example a typical ship maker might have one full ton sized maker for hull plating and large engineering components, and ten Roup Makers for specialized smaller parts and differing objects all adding up to another dton (although maybe spread around the ship a bit more).

Different feedstock/maker pairs might include-

• Heavy materials, likely including gravitic presses for making Superdense on up
• Fabrics
• Polymers
• Ceramics
• Electronics
• Exotic metals for Engineering parts, likely including production versions of nuclear dampers for atomic manipulation
• Chemical, including possibly Proneutron's food makers
• Biosynthesis, likely life support or more food production, possibly organ parts for replacement

Probably should include a complexity multiplier for being able to do things like an organ or a jump drive part, costing in both feedstock AND time. Also, possibly a chance for breakage as this is not a full QA/factory production environment.

It occurs to me the real cost is hauling around the feedstock especially if you break the components down to differing types. Can rebuild the air/raft's lifters but ran out of electronics feedstock, hope you can salvage the controls from the broken one.

 

[tjoneslo]

Marc specifically expressed the idea the makers were there to make temporary replacement parts and quick things, but not replace the modern manufacturing processes. They should be a step or several short of a von Neumann machine. That you can't rebuild a Maker with a Maker was viewed as a good thing, not a bad one.

I selected the TL modifier as a simplification of listing specific materials the machines could work with. If T5 lacked the technology effects table I would make that tech curve a lot smaller (0 / -1 / -2) and leave it stable for the whole of the tech scale. If you don't want to apply different modifiers, you can use that.

The next level of detail would be, as mentioned in the meta page, would be have maker matching specific tool kits. The surgery tool kit maker would be able to build organs and replacement body parts. A survival kit would include food.

If you have a TL10/12 starship, finding a TL14 or TL15 ton sized maker would solve your replacement parts problem. A minor quest for your players, as it may require a long journey to one of the core worlds.

 

[Spartan159]

Pg 195 bk 3, Station / Workbench, 2 tons, 100,000 Credits

 

[tjoneslo]

Pg 195 bk 3, Station / Workbench, 2 tons, 100,000 Credits

That was one of the starting points for the Maker technology boxes.

 

[Grav_Moped]

...
If you have a TL10/12 starship, finding a TL14 or TL15 ton sized maker would solve your replacement parts problem. A minor quest for your players, as it may require a long journey to one of the core worlds.

And this explains (as a retcon) why the IISS uses low-tech ships (TL9 Type S) despite having access to TL15.

 

[Garnfellow]

I had a discussion with several people about what the makers were like, and came up with the following

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Maker

The meta page has some rules.

That's fantastic. It belongs in the book!

 

[Garnfellow]

Pg 195 bk 3, Station / Workbench, 2 tons, 100,000 Credits

Another good catch. Too many aliases for this tech.

 

[mike wightman]

Maker patterns/templates and high TL makers themselves make good rewards for adventures to allow players a sense of 'getting something' I have found.

Another thing I have allowed since making makers an actual machine in my games is for the reverse engineering of patterns/templates from devices that can be disassembled by the maker.

This is another route to offering rewards for adventures.

My first post on the subject of makers being a real in universe machine:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=457800&postcount=3

 

[Baroun Tardis]

T5 seems to assume that ships can have a workshop or maker shop. Based on the context, I assume this is sort of like a 3D printer that allows the crew to fabricate parts, equipment, etc.

For example, the Kinunir description on Book 2, page 48 notes that the ship has an "amply-equipped Ship’s Locker, a vault for secure storage, an Armory, and a Maker shop [emphasis added] for repair and maintenance supplies." Or Book 2, page 190: "A ship may manufacture its own Fusion Detonators in its workshops using available materials."

However, there are no details on space, power, cost, or capabilities of these shops.

Looking at the index, it appears there is a missing section on Makers and Workshops that was supposed to be on page 79. Has anyone seen anything in past drafts or playtest materials?

1) Agent of the Imperium has "makers", and they're capable of building stuff at current TL or below, including another maker. I think AoI has gotta be cannon, considering the author.

2) T4 CSC has the "MFF-10" mobile factory, which can take raw materials and churn out any parts for any imperial serial number thing up to and inlcuding TL10. If you lok at the design sheet, the actual chunk that does the work is 20 kiloliters, or about 1.5 dtons. This device is priced at 100kcr.

3) T5 tools section has . (p195) Station or Workbench. The standard workbench is a size 6 (displaces 2 tons) environmentally-controlled room full of equipment. It costs Cr 100,000.

I'd say that at TL-10 and up, that "Station or Workbench" is a Maker.

The next question is "what's the cost to make stuff?"
My method of handling this as a GM would be to say that a Maker in a ship is less efficent than mass production, so it requires a raw materials cost equal to the price of the finished item. (This figures that the big factories are getting some kind of quantity discount on raw materials by buying them buy the kiloton)

The next question would be "How long does it take to make?"
My method of handling that as a GM would be "Makers function at the speed of plot, with the caveat that once a certain item is made, someone needs to make a note of how long it took so we can be consistent next time. Or be players who are nice to the GM and do it in Jumpspace"

 

[Dialogue62]

According to the Wiki, makers of any size, are available at TL9. I would imagine that increasing TL means the maker is capable of more complexity and a faster creation time - until you get to TL24, of course.
How does this look for a possible timeline of capabilities?

TL​	Materials​	Complexity​	Rationale​
9​	Aluminum, Titanium, Plate, Laminate​	Simple Parts​	​
10​	add Shell​	Complex Machines​	The Gravitic achievement allows the assembly of unconnected parts by using a graviticly controlled environment.​
11​	add Dense, Polymer​	Food: Nutrient paste, unpleasant Model 0 Computer​	​
12​	add CrystalIron, Chitin, Keratin​	Body parts: blood, tissue, bone Food: Nutrient paste, bland Model 1 Computer​	The Biologics achievement allows Maker access to Organic tech.​
13​	add Kenitic, Composite, Organic, Charged Aluminum​	Body parts: organs Food: Emergency Rations or Std Quality ingredients Model 2 Computer​	​
14​	add LiteMetal, Charged Titanium​	Food: Standard quality meal or Good Quality ingredients Model 3 Computer​	​
15​	add SuperDense, Bonded, Charged Plate​	Food: Good quality meal or Excellent Quality ingredients Model 4 Computer Positronic Brain​	​
16​	add VeryLiteMetal, Charged Shell​	Food: Excellent quality meal Model 5 Computer Wafers​	​

​

17​	add HullMetal, Charged Dense​	Model 6 Computer​	​
18​	add Matrix, Geneered, Charged CrystalIron​	Model 7 Computer​	Disruptor/Disintegrator tech combined with Maker, creates true recycling.​
19​	add Charged Kenetic​	Model 8 Computer AI Brains​	Elemental Matter Transport advancement can refill raw material bins with a gas giant or asteroid flyby.​
20​	add Charged LiteMetal​	Model 9 Computer​	​
21​	add Charged SuperDense​	Fully grown Clone / Geneered Sophont​	The Stasis achievement allows the Maker to create a fully grown lifeform.​
22​	add Charged VeryLiteMetal​	​	​
23​	add Charged HullMetal​		​

 

[Dialogue62]

According to the Wiki, makers of any size, are available at TL9. I would imagine that increasing TL means the maker is capable of more complexity and a faster creation time - until you get to TL24, of course.
How does this look for a possible timeline of capabilities?

TL​	Materials​	Complexity​	Rationale​
9​	Aluminum, Titanium, Plate, Laminate​	Simple Parts​	​
10​	add Shell​	Complex Machines​	The Gravitic achievement allows the assembly of unconnected parts by using a graviticly controlled environment.​
11​	add Dense, Polymer​	Food: Nutrient paste, unpleasant Model 0 Computer​	​
12​	add CrystalIron, Chitin, Keratin​	Body parts: blood, tissue, bone Food: Nutrient paste, bland Model 1 Computer​	The Biologics achievement allows Maker access to Organic tech.​
13​	add Kenitic, Composite, Organic, Charged Aluminum​	Body parts: organs Food: Emergency Rations or Std Quality ingredients Model 2 Computer​	​
14​	add LiteMetal, Charged Titanium​	Food: Standard quality meal or Good Quality ingredients Model 3 Computer​	​
15​	add SuperDense, Bonded, Charged Plate​	Food: Good quality meal or Excellent Quality ingredients Model 4 Computer Positronic Brain​	​
16​	add VeryLiteMetal, Charged Shell​	Food: Excellent quality meal Model 5 Computer Wafers​	​

​

17​	add HullMetal, Charged Dense​	Model 6 Computer​	​
18​	add Matrix, Geneered, Charged CrystalIron​	Model 7 Computer​	Disruptor/Disintegrator tech combined with Maker, creates true recycling.​
19​	add Charged Kenetic​	Model 8 Computer AI Brains​	Elemental Matter Transport advancement can refill raw material bins with a gas giant or asteroid flyby.​
20​	add Charged LiteMetal​	Model 9 Computer​	​
21​	add Charged SuperDense​	Fully grown Clone / Geneered Sophont​	The Stasis achievement allows the Maker to create a fully grown lifeform.​
22​	add Charged VeryLiteMetal​	​	​
23​	add Charged HullMetal​		​

Correction: all computers should be 'Improved' versions. As size is the same, and with Improved having only a 10% better efficiency than the Standard, this is likely an improvement based more on better design concepts than any real tech improvements. As the Fabber's ability would not be restricted by design improvements, it should be capable of the Improved version from first availability.
Of course, this is all out the window if you want your fabbers to be able to create anything at the same TL - including spares and replacements for itself.

 

[mike wightman]

A TL9 maker should be capable of anything a 3d printer+CAD+CAM+CNC can achieve today and then some. The big difference is the addition of gravitics to the mix for manipulation.

 

[kilemall]

A TL9 maker should be capable of anything a 3d printer+CAD+CAM+CNC can achieve today and then some. The big difference is the addition of gravitics to the mix for manipulation.

Don’t forget the nuclear damper atomic manipulation tech. That should be another revolution.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Of course, this is all out the window if you want your fabbers to be able to create anything at the same TL - including spares and replacements for itself.

I'd go easy on this one... We've already got that capability at current TL. A lot of people used their printer to make all the mechanical parts for another one, or more commonly realized part X was going and printed a new part X before it went completely.

I can see ruling out complete replication from a single maker, especially a specialized one. Currently, we've effectively got some Early or worse TL-9 Polymer Makers... but they don't do the chips or motors that are needed to 'bring them to life'.

We're making progress (https://hackaday.com/2017/08/04/simple-3d-printed-circuitry/ , https://hackaday.com/blog/page/2/?s=3d printed motor ) but we aren't at a fully self replicating machine any time soon.

But what we are seeing in contemporary growth is that each generation of 3D printer is being used in the prototyping for the next generation of them....

If it came up in a game, I'd rule that "Making replacement parts for a Maker of the same TL is one difficulty higher, and if you're making it on a machine that's in the course of failing, it's another level after that"

 

[mike wightman]

A maker can make anything of its own TL or lower, and even fabricate higher TL experimental and prototype items if:
it has the pattern required
it has the raw materials required
it is big enough
it has the time
A maker can fabricate chips, motors etc. but these require a lot more time and critical raw materials

Makers can also unmake - they can disassemble and analyse.

That said a ship board maker is likely to have a stock of prefabricated chips and other parts that individually take very specialized raw materials and a long time to fabricate.

Note- biologicals makers are a thing - they can build synthetic bodies and organs, grow clone bodies and organs and function as an autodoc of its own TL.