Black Vulmea
SOC-12
And all of that much easier to dispose of discretely than a battle cruiser.
Salvaging ships - military & otherwise
- Thread starter NW_Paul
- Start date
Black Vulmea
SOC-12
IMTU a salvor is entitled to compensation based on the value of the property recovered, but as long as ownership of the property can be determined, then a salvor is not entitled to the property itself.
So the adventurers can't keep the Kinunir, but they are entitled to compensation for its recovery - and they'll need every credit to pay attorneys' fees when they're charged for violating interdicted space.
So the adventurers can't keep the Kinunir, but they are entitled to compensation for its recovery - and they'll need every credit to pay attorneys' fees when they're charged for violating interdicted space.
BardicHeart
SOC-12
Couple of thoughts.
First, I'd consider the history of real world maritime salvage law and why it is in place. Real world maritime salvage of a wreck usually yields a 10% to 25% prize claim of whatever is salvaged. That's 10%-25% of the value assigned to whatever was actually salvaged by a prize court... not the blue book mint, just out of the ship yard value. So if the wreck is badly damaged and barely running, its not going to be worth as much.
Maritime salvage laws came about to encourage people to risk their lives and property to salvage valuable goods. Since 10-25% of the value is paid out, that's 75-90% back to the owner. Much cheaper and cost effective than the cost of replacing all the goods in most cases.
Whether the Imperium has such salvage laws in your TU should likely be based on whether you decide the Imperium thinks its worth encouraging salvage of wrecks... or if they can afford to just write it off. Personally, I think they'd have some sort of salvage law to address just what happens to whatever is occasionally salvaged even if they don't want to actively encourage salvage (and I think they would personally, it just makes good economic sense). This takes care of the question of who a salvaged vessel (or cargo) belongs too and who is entitled to what. In the case you don't want much salvage going on, set the prize at only 5%... and its taxable income. So after taxes you get maybe 3% free and clear. If you are more comfortable with salvage, raise it to 10% as the standard with higher awards for specific wrecks (list of prize awards available at your nearest Imperial Navy base).
Under maritime salvage laws, ownership usually remains with the original owner. If we follow this model then no, the PCs couldn't just fly off with a salvaged Kininur... if they did, they're now pirates... yo-ho.. yo-ho. Maybe the PCs are fine painting it black, renaming it the Pearl and... :rofl: Otherwise, fly it to the nearest Navy base or depot and submit a claim to the prize court. After the Navy has had time to crawl over the salvaged ship and evaluate it (GM should take a few game sessions for this, figure out what was damaged or destroyed and deduct the value, then take off some more for whatever repairs would be needed to bring the ship back online OR just look at the ship as salvage... what would it be worth broken down for parts and scrap? Figure it up, PCs get 10% of that... possibly up to 25% for specific parts... like a black globe generator for example). After a few weeks, the prize court reports its findings and pays out their salvage fee.
If the ship were privately owned, then the owner has to come up with that salvage prize... which can get interesting if the owner is broke. The ship could be sold off and the PCs paid from the sale (getting a percentage of the sale price) or they might work out a deal with the owner of some sort... which could lead to adventure.
So taking the Kininur as an example. Out of the shipyard it is worth 1,663.63 MCr. Assuming battle damage destroyed or seriously damaged say 30% of the ships systems, we could knock that down to (1,663.63x70%) 1,164.541. If it would take another 10% to bring it back up to ready status, decuct another 166.363 MCr which leaves the salvage value down to 998.178 MCr of which the PCs get 10% of that for 99.8178 MCr... still a very hefty sum. Course taxes take off from that (due immediately of course) which could be another 20-30% easily so cut that down to 69.87246 MCr to be divded how many ways? Say 30 people (what, you took a prize crew out didn't you?) works out to 2.329 MCr per person.
If a PC coming into 2.329 MCr will wreck your campaign... well... maybe you're just a cheap ba&#^&# :rofl:
But that's just my 2 MCr on it
First, I'd consider the history of real world maritime salvage law and why it is in place. Real world maritime salvage of a wreck usually yields a 10% to 25% prize claim of whatever is salvaged. That's 10%-25% of the value assigned to whatever was actually salvaged by a prize court... not the blue book mint, just out of the ship yard value. So if the wreck is badly damaged and barely running, its not going to be worth as much.
Maritime salvage laws came about to encourage people to risk their lives and property to salvage valuable goods. Since 10-25% of the value is paid out, that's 75-90% back to the owner. Much cheaper and cost effective than the cost of replacing all the goods in most cases.
Whether the Imperium has such salvage laws in your TU should likely be based on whether you decide the Imperium thinks its worth encouraging salvage of wrecks... or if they can afford to just write it off. Personally, I think they'd have some sort of salvage law to address just what happens to whatever is occasionally salvaged even if they don't want to actively encourage salvage (and I think they would personally, it just makes good economic sense). This takes care of the question of who a salvaged vessel (or cargo) belongs too and who is entitled to what. In the case you don't want much salvage going on, set the prize at only 5%... and its taxable income. So after taxes you get maybe 3% free and clear. If you are more comfortable with salvage, raise it to 10% as the standard with higher awards for specific wrecks (list of prize awards available at your nearest Imperial Navy base).
Under maritime salvage laws, ownership usually remains with the original owner. If we follow this model then no, the PCs couldn't just fly off with a salvaged Kininur... if they did, they're now pirates... yo-ho.. yo-ho. Maybe the PCs are fine painting it black, renaming it the Pearl and... :rofl: Otherwise, fly it to the nearest Navy base or depot and submit a claim to the prize court. After the Navy has had time to crawl over the salvaged ship and evaluate it (GM should take a few game sessions for this, figure out what was damaged or destroyed and deduct the value, then take off some more for whatever repairs would be needed to bring the ship back online OR just look at the ship as salvage... what would it be worth broken down for parts and scrap? Figure it up, PCs get 10% of that... possibly up to 25% for specific parts... like a black globe generator for example). After a few weeks, the prize court reports its findings and pays out their salvage fee.
If the ship were privately owned, then the owner has to come up with that salvage prize... which can get interesting if the owner is broke. The ship could be sold off and the PCs paid from the sale (getting a percentage of the sale price) or they might work out a deal with the owner of some sort... which could lead to adventure.
So taking the Kininur as an example. Out of the shipyard it is worth 1,663.63 MCr. Assuming battle damage destroyed or seriously damaged say 30% of the ships systems, we could knock that down to (1,663.63x70%) 1,164.541. If it would take another 10% to bring it back up to ready status, decuct another 166.363 MCr which leaves the salvage value down to 998.178 MCr of which the PCs get 10% of that for 99.8178 MCr... still a very hefty sum. Course taxes take off from that (due immediately of course) which could be another 20-30% easily so cut that down to 69.87246 MCr to be divded how many ways? Say 30 people (what, you took a prize crew out didn't you?) works out to 2.329 MCr per person.
If a PC coming into 2.329 MCr will wreck your campaign... well... maybe you're just a cheap ba&#^&# :rofl:
But that's just my 2 MCr on it
My vision of the Imperium is that it doesn't collect taxes from individuals and that money paid by the Imperium is not taxable by the member worlds (That's why its military pensions are so lousy
). But that's just me. That particular milage obviously varies a lot -- the relevant taxing authority could have progressive taxes and soak the PCs for 90% of the sum -- but I don't really see that as any different from just reducing the original reward to 1% instead of 10. As for sharing with the salvage crew, my players would hire the crew for decent wages but no cut of the reward.
Depends on what the campaign had been up until then. If it had been a living-hands-to-mouth free trader campaign, then letting the crew get their hands on 10 or 12 megacredits would indeed change the game radically. I can even tell you how the game would proceed, because something like that happened to a game I was playing in. For the next three sessions, the one player who really likes playing The Merchant Game will play the system like a violin and parlay that nest egg up into a couple of billion credits while the rest of the players grow more and more bored. Finally, the merchant player will grow bored too and they'll hire a crew of NPCs to run the ship and look around for a small country they can buy. :devil:
Hans
BardicHeart
SOC-12
You realize this is going to spawn a thread on taxation in the Imperium.... we've really put our feet in it now. :rofl:
Some real world salvage operations give everyone a share... not necessarily an equal share. For example deckcrew might get 1 share, the main crew might get 10 shares. Add up all the shares, divide the prize by that and you get that times your shares. That would be another way to hire on a crew and pay them.
An yer just stingy matey. :rofl: (j/k)
Some real world salvage operations give everyone a share... not necessarily an equal share. For example deckcrew might get 1 share, the main crew might get 10 shares. Add up all the shares, divide the prize by that and you get that times your shares. That would be another way to hire on a crew and pay them.
An yer just stingy matey. :rofl: (j/k)
Salvaging of naval ships would be different then of merchant ships. These have toys aboard that any state would want to prevent getting about. It would arguably be an act of war and would require a proper merc ticket. If done by Imperial citizens against Imperial naval vessels it would be an act of rebellion. And if there is no merc ticket then the salvagers are unlawful combatants.
If the salvaging was commissioned by the Imperium itself that would be different.
I once thought up an episode where the heroes were slipping into the Entrope system to do exactly that on a(legally dubious) ticket from the Astron Project. There were plenty of wrecks but they were thickly patrolled.
If the salvaging was commissioned by the Imperium itself that would be different.
I once thought up an episode where the heroes were slipping into the Entrope system to do exactly that on a(legally dubious) ticket from the Astron Project. There were plenty of wrecks but they were thickly patrolled.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The usual.
The pcs spent ages following leads, rumours, doing patron encounters while all the while getting closer to Shionthy.
They eventually encountered the Kinunir.
They died.
The last bit is a common theme in the early CT adventures - the pcs spend ages getting to the final encounter and they die there.
RSG - pcs died.
Twilight's Peak - pcs died.
But at least they died knowing something new about the setting =)
The pcs spent ages following leads, rumours, doing patron encounters while all the while getting closer to Shionthy.
They eventually encountered the Kinunir.
They died.
The last bit is a common theme in the early CT adventures - the pcs spend ages getting to the final encounter and they die there.
RSG - pcs died.
Twilight's Peak - pcs died.
But at least they died knowing something new about the setting =)
Khan Trav
SOC-12
Didn't the computer enhanced search of the epic poem in Twilight's Peak come down to the two words "we died"? Not meaning to change the subject...
Some of the pre-generated characters seem to be woefully under skilled. The Research Station Gamma characters were pitiful, I believe they would have died of sheer embarrassment!
Some of the pre-generated characters seem to be woefully under skilled. The Research Station Gamma characters were pitiful, I believe they would have died of sheer embarrassment!
Khan Trav
SOC-12
I played a play by email game called america 2020 where they had a class called Salvor. Basically someone who could live in rough conditions and could take things apart and fix em up for resale. They also had some firearms skills for some strange reason...
shadowcat20
SOC-12
Ok, PC's get the ship, and get it running after a fashion.
The Imps want said ship and are paying spit for it.
A small Empire/Zhos/Dogs/Cats wants the ship and will pay spit X 10 if the PC's can get it across their borders.
Now the PC's have a broken down constantly failing hulk they are trying to sneak across a border while the Imps and maybe other parties are looking for them. Lots of out of the way systems and long jumps will be needed or sneak in, skim refuel, and sneak out operations.
Sounds like a very fun campaign.
The Imps want said ship and are paying spit for it.
A small Empire/Zhos/Dogs/Cats wants the ship and will pay spit X 10 if the PC's can get it across their borders.
Now the PC's have a broken down constantly failing hulk they are trying to sneak across a border while the Imps and maybe other parties are looking for them. Lots of out of the way systems and long jumps will be needed or sneak in, skim refuel, and sneak out operations.
Sounds like a very fun campaign.
Khan Trav
SOC-12
The logical first step, assuming they can fly it and are undetected.
Jump to Yurst, the systems has gas giants and no scout or naval presence. This is a real backwater.
Then Jump to Yori, not a backwater but no real problems either. They have the 400 ton Dragon Class SDB Zeludeous on patrol there. This is where a nice false transponder might come in handy if Kinunir is unable to get to the gas giant for fuel skimming.
Assuming all goes well at yurst and yori then jump to Ruie and meet with your sword world agents who pay 10 X spit for the Big K and even allow you to live after the transaction is made.
Don't forget that:
1. The Kinunir was built by General and its best known sister ship is the Gash. So any recovery money would be low any way.
2. Even 12 year old Marine equipment makes for good resale
3. The Imperial Warrant, if found, is worth the ship's weight in gold, and more of a game breaker than letting the PC's pay-off their ship.:devil:
1. The Kinunir was built by General and its best known sister ship is the Gash. So any recovery money would be low any way.
2. Even 12 year old Marine equipment makes for good resale
3. The Imperial Warrant, if found, is worth the ship's weight in gold, and more of a game breaker than letting the PC's pay-off their ship.:devil:
Well, there is that.
Also, welcome aboard.
All very excellent points.Don't forget that:
1. The Kinunir was built by General and its best known sister ship is the Gash. So any recovery money would be low any way.
2. Even 12 year old Marine equipment makes for good resale
3. The Imperial Warrant, if found, is worth the ship's weight in gold, and more of a game breaker than letting the PC's pay-off their ship.:devil:
Also, welcome aboard.
As Magnus said, welcome aboard. You'll soon figure out that certain topics have been discussed so much that us old-timers (aka grognards) feel like we've heard it all before and are perhaps a little too prone to forget that newcomers haven't. If someone is a bit curt with you, don't take it to heart. We're really quite nice here when we remember to beDon't forget that:
1. The Kinunir was built by General and its best known sister ship is the Gash. So any recovery money would be low any way.
2. Even 12 year old Marine equipment makes for good resale
3. The Imperial Warrant, if found, is worth the ship's weight in gold, and more of a game breaker than letting the PC's pay-off their ship.:devil:
.As for your point 1: The original cost of a Kinunir is over one billion credits (MCr1,080). Even marked down, its full market value would be enough to make a group of PCs the owners of several fully paid up merchant ships. Which is fine if the GM wants to run a Fledgeling Line campaign, but sucks if he wants to run a standard hand-to-mouth keeping-one-step-ahead-of-the-bank-payments free trader campaign.
Point 3: The Warrant (assuming it's genuine, which I sincerely believe is not the case -- that's not canon, though
) is worth a brownie point with Duke Norris (which is not bad it itself). But letting a group of PCs get their hands on a warrant that they didn't have a right to carry and encouraging them to use it would be an extremely nasty hose job if the ref then had the Imperial authorities react as they can be expected to react once they realize that there is an unauthorized warrant floating around... (I.e. track them down and make an example out of them).Hans
Just to follow up:
The warrant is the "get out jail card" until they reach a Navy base or preferably Regina.
As a GM I would let them have the money (difficult task = great reward). I just wouldn't have them walk out with it right then. It would be at least a year before they would get it. You now 6 months of debriefing with NI, IISS and the Duke's staff. Then six months of bureaucracy chasing. :devil:
After getting the money see if the group is smart or typical.
Smart - pay-off ship, upgrades, buy/order new tricked out ship, seed the money and chase rumors like searching for some missing Leviathans down in the Trojan Reaches until the new ship is done. They just don't have to chase money as much for now. Remember big ship = big target and larger overhead even if paid-off.
Typical - pay-off ship, sell ship, buy/order new tricked out ship(s) let them... the first one will be ready in 24 months the next one 18 months later and one every 18 months. This is assuming that they pre-payed. If they want used ships great three words - pirates, highjacking, mutiny and they are at least 6 months behind any to give chase.:devil::devil::devil:
Just remember that as GM you have powers that make Grandfather and all his Sons quake and this is your game to run.
The warrant is the "get out jail card" until they reach a Navy base or preferably Regina.
As a GM I would let them have the money (difficult task = great reward). I just wouldn't have them walk out with it right then. It would be at least a year before they would get it. You now 6 months of debriefing with NI, IISS and the Duke's staff. Then six months of bureaucracy chasing. :devil:
After getting the money see if the group is smart or typical.
Smart - pay-off ship, upgrades, buy/order new tricked out ship, seed the money and chase rumors like searching for some missing Leviathans down in the Trojan Reaches until the new ship is done. They just don't have to chase money as much for now. Remember big ship = big target and larger overhead even if paid-off.
Typical - pay-off ship, sell ship, buy/order new tricked out ship(s) let them... the first one will be ready in 24 months the next one 18 months later and one every 18 months. This is assuming that they pre-payed. If they want used ships great three words - pirates, highjacking, mutiny and they are at least 6 months behind any to give chase.:devil::devil::devil:
Just remember that as GM you have powers that make Grandfather and all his Sons quake and this is your game to run.
