Salt Giant

[Smeelbo]

I have been using in my campaigns an as yet unobserved planet type, which I call Salt Giants. Basicly, they are large (1.5-6 radius earth), low density (about 2-3 grams/cc) terrestial planets, geologically (and often biologically) active, often with a high hydrological number, usually found close to older red dwarves, often with one or more significant moons. Low in classic metals, but rich in mid-weight atoms (calcium, sodium, silicon, and so on).

I find them useful because they often have active biospheres, interesting geologies, and the nearby satellites serve as a base for their space economy.

Smeelbo

 

[Drakon]

Low metals meaning low tech levels? I am not sure what is so good about them, but it does sound intriguing.

 

[aramis]

No, Drakon, low as in not many, not as in some subtype.

 

[Drakon]

Well, being "Low in classic metals," does mean "not many" of these kinds of metals. The only thing I can see here is it would reduce the level that would naturally arise on such a planet. Is there any other difference that such a reduction (compared to earth) would have to life on this planet?

 

[selunatic2397]

Wow! that sounds neat. I am going to think about borrowing that for my campaign.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[BlackBat242]

Well, being "Low in classic metals," does mean "not many" of these kinds of metals. The only thing I can see here is it would reduce the level that would naturally arise on such a planet. Is there any other difference that such a reduction (compared to earth) would have to life on this planet?

So, tech is only possible with lots of metals, then?

So those novels with bio or chem-based tech are bunk?

Ceramic/composite-based structural materials can't be the primary building material? Stressed concrete can't be developed (with carbon-fibre instead of steel for the cables)?

I guess all those wooden sailing ships, wooden aircraft (not just WW1 and WW2 [de Havilland Mosquito], but even the de Havilland Vampire & Venom had wood fuselages with jet engines inside, and saw service into the 1960s), etc. could never have been further developed?

Petroleum refineries made of ceramic materials couldn't get your tech into the plastic/modern synthetic composite age?


Hmmm... I guess that kind of tech couldn't be used instead of metal... oh well.

 

[atpollard]

Radiation might be a problem. The Earth is protected from solar flares by the movement of the molten iron core kept hot by radioactive decay in the planet's core.

Your salt world either has a different mechanism for generating a protective magnetic field, or life will have adapted to protect itself from radiation bursts, or the ecosystem will be based on short lifecycles with occasional mass extinctions. None of this is a deal killer, just aspects of the world to be considered.

 

[atpollard]

So, tech is only possible with lots of metals, then?

Yes, from TL 1 to about TL 5. The question is are there other metals available on this world that might be uncommon on Earth. A Titanium saw would work as well as a bronze one for cutting down primordial forests.

So those novels with bio or chem-based tech are bunk?

Probably, but I have not read all of them.
[Don't feel bad, reactionless Maneuver drives are "bunk" too.]

Ceramic/composite-based structural materials can't be the primary building material? Stressed concrete can't be developed (with carbon-fibre instead of steel for the cables)?

Actually, this is unnecessary. The Romans managed to build quite large and impressive structures with unreinforced concrete at TL 1 and Chartres Cathedral is quite impressive for a building made of cut stone at TL 2.

I guess all those wooden sailing ships, wooden aircraft (not just WW1 and WW2 [de Havilland Mosquito], but even the de Havilland Vampire & Venom had wood fuselages with jet engines inside, and saw service into the 1960s), etc. could never have been further developed?

How would you drill a hole into a beam to insert a wooden peg without any metal tools? Ceramics as a group are too brittle for most tools. It is difficult to envision any high-pressure container (like a cylinder and piston or a boiler) without metals. You need to find a high tensile strength material that can survive high temperatures. Non-metals tend to be either high tensile strength (like spider silk) OR thermal resistant (like ceramics) but not both.

Petroleum refineries made of ceramic materials couldn't get your tech into the plastic/modern synthetic composite age?

I believe that Carbon falls into the "rare" list on this world (like most common metals), so no oil or plastics as we know them.

Hmmm... I guess that kind of tech couldn't be used instead of metal... oh well.

Then we agree.

This would be a VERY different world from what we know. Probably full of toxic (to Earth Life) life forms and some seriously funky saltwater chemistry going on. It will NOT be just like the Imperium with ceramics instead of steel.

[For this discussion, I have assumed that since normal stellar fusion can produce all of the elements from Helium to Iron in bulk (like our solar system) and this Salt Giant world has few "classic metals" and many "mid-weight atoms", that the common elements on this new world are heavier than carbon. If carbon is not the cut off point, then many of my conclusions would not apply.]

 

[Drakon]

I guess all those wooden sailing ships, wooden aircraft (not just WW1 and WW2 [de Havilland Mosquito], but even the de Havilland Vampire & Venom had wood fuselages with jet engines inside, and saw service into the 1960s), etc. could never have been further developed?
....
Hmmm... I guess that kind of tech couldn't be used instead of metal... oh well.

A Mosquito without its radio, is unable to contact its home base, or relay intelligence to England.

Without its metal engines, the Mosquito makes a poor glider.

Without the metal tools, such as saws, hammers, nails, the Mosquito is part of a new growth forest in England.

We do not know how to make a ceramic engine now. And we've been able to draw upon our experience with metalworking.

Without metals, you lose a lot of what would otherwise be easy knowledge and abilities. Electronics, electricity, combustion, power generation and distribution. Computers, light bulbs, generators, steam, internal combustion, and jet engines, tanks, swords, scissors, the printing press, the power grid, and the internet. Without that knowledge and these abilities, that slows down, if it does not completely stop, the technical developement of whatever native civilization that arrises on such worlds.

If you want to postulate a realistic, advanced civilization without metals, I think you have your work cut out for you. How is power generated and distributed throughout a civilization? How is data? How are strong disagreements settled without metal weapons? How do they transport goods and people around the area, let alone the whole planet? How do they attach their erasers to their pencils? What is used as currency?

 

[aramis]

Actually, Drakon, I've seen ceramic engines... turbines.

LP turbines can be done in ceramics, or even in glass.

It's easier in metal, but it's doable. (What we can't do is make decent reciprocating ceramic engines.)

 

[BlackBat242]

Besides, he never said "no metals"... just "Low in classic metals"!

This means that some metals would still be available for development work, prototypes, and expensive small-production-run government/military equipment.

The main impact would be... no mass-production of metal items.

Electricity, generated by metal-containing equipment, and carried by copper wires, would still be possible... but only for the very rich (and governments are richer than any individual), and when they are essential.

The common being would have to settle for other tech... which would drive development of re-engineered equipment using little/no metal, and of the materials tech required toproduce those items.

 

[Ishmael]

I can generate static electricty without metals...maybe such a world would develop methods of using that for classic purposes. Neccessity is the mother of invention, after all.

 

[Smeelbo]

Clarification on Salt Giants

These planets are intended to be alternatives to the usual terrestials, a different sort of anchor for a rich system. Because of their mass, they are more likely to have larger satellites, and hence remain geologically active. They are more likely to have retained more of their atmosphere and water, and so have higher than normal atmosphere and hydrological digits, and more likely to have indigenous life with greater diversity.

Whereas they are proportional lower in metals (with a typical density of 2 grams per cubic centimeter), this does not mean the absence of those metals, or even necessarily any practical shortage. They are, after all, geologically active. They are abundant in the the middle weight atoms: calcium, phosphorus, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, sulphur, and so on, that are so necessary for life.

They make a nice alternative to the same old terrestrial with a crappy atmosphere and some water.

Smeelbo

 

[BigBadRon]

I think the planet could be a very interesting place for an Research Station, with some odd life forms, unusual conditions, and possibly even some primitive sophonts (TL0).

No need to worry about the relative lack of metals, since the locals are using wood and stone, and the researchers import all their equipment.

The proportionately low levels of metal in the environment would require some biological adaptations by the local life forms (like a non-ferrous substance to replace hemoglobin?), which might be why the Research Station is there.

 

[JAFARR]

Actually, Drakon, I've seen ceramic engines... turbines.

LP turbines can be done in ceramics, or even in glass.

It's easier in metal, but it's doable. (What we can't do is make decent reciprocating ceramic engines.)

Aramis, are these actually ceramic or ceramic coated metals? I was in the USN back in the 1970's and they were working on the ceramic coating of the steam contact areas of the turbine blades as they were finding that the ceramics could be made more wear resistant than uncoated metal, but even at that I think that metal tools and equipment are required to process the ceramic materials. (Could be that my memory is at fault about this. The rest of my body seems to be failing it's ageing rolls at least half the time.)

 

[aramis]

Pure ceramic. Small stuff. Drop a turbine wheel, and it shatters.

Most ceramic processes can be done sans metals. Not all, as some incorporate metals in small amounts as either dopants or structure-enhancers, but in general....