Round Trip?

[Vladika]

...That is to say, how much it costs to have a J1 ship move stuff 3 parsecs compared to how much it costs to have a J3 ship move stuff 3 parsecs...

Hans

I totally agree.

A J1 ship's captain gets paid 3 times for 3 successive J1 runs in a much cheaper ship. Captain Happy Cargo shipper Sad

A J3 ship's captain gets paid 1 time for a single J3 run in a vastly more expensive ship. Captain Sad (and bankrupt) Cargo shipper Happy

 

[Fritz_Brown]

OK, a 200dTon wedge, standard hull ship (LBB2) with 4 staterooms, A J- and M-drives and PP, 1 emergency low berth, model2 computer, no weapons (but paying for the hardpoints): 49.3MCr, 116dTons cargo.
(feel free to check my math)

Scale that up to J3, carrying 116dTons cargo, right? So, 350dTon ship with F J-drive and PP, B M-drive, everything else the same: 179.25MCr, 119dTons cargo.

Did I muck anything up? Because that works out to a little over 3.5x the cost and almost double the hull size.

Now, that works out to almost 4x the displacement of engines/powerplants required. The real cost in tonnage is in fuel, which is 4.5x Does that sound right?

 

[Vladika]

OK, a 200dTon wedge, standard hull ship (LBB2) with 4 staterooms, A J- and M-drives and PP, 1 emergency low berth, model2 computer, no weapons (but paying for the hardpoints): 49.3MCr, 116dTons cargo.
(feel free to check my math)

Scale that up to J3, carrying 116dTons cargo, right? So, 350dTon ship with F J-drive and PP, B M-drive, everything else the same: 179.25MCr, 119dTons cargo.

Did I muck anything up? Because that works out to a little over 3.5x the cost and almost double the hull size.

Now, that works out to almost 4x the displacement of engines/powerplants required. The real cost in tonnage is in fuel, which is 4.5x Does that sound right?

I didn't check the math but it certainly goes with my "at least 3 times the cost"...

My 116 dton payload was based on the Free Trader 82 dtons cargo, 6 passenger staterooms 24 dtons and 20 low berths 10 dtons.

The larger ship uses a custom hull (8MCr for the Standard Hull to MCr0.1 per ton; minimum price MCr20 for the required Custom Hull) to account for the vastly larger and expensive drives (J1 "A" 10MCr to J3 "F" at 60 MCr and PP "A" at 8MCr to "F" at 48 MCr) and computer (2bis or model 3) goes from 2MCr to 18 MCr

Crew adds a Engineer (1 per 35 tons of drives) and a navigator (over 200 dtons)

 

[rancke]

A J1 ship's captain gets paid 3 times for 3 successive J1 runs in a much cheaper ship. Captain Happy Cargo shipper Sad

A J3 ship's captain gets paid 1 time for a single J3 run in a vastly more expensive ship. Captain Sad (and bankrupt) Cargo shipper Happy

Umm, no. Game rules claim the J1 ship's captain gets paid twice as much as it costs him to move freight one jump. They also claim the J3 ship's captain gets paid less for moving freight one jump than it costs him to move it.

Conclusion: The rules are wrong. Jump-1 ships get paid a competitive rate; if they didn't, some other jump-1 ship would undercut them. Jump-3 ships likewise get paid a competitive rate; if they didn't, they wouldn't exist.


Hans

 

[rancke]

To re-quote me:



I'm in agreement with the larger ship argument.

And re-quote whartung:

My apologies. I got you mixed up with whartung.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Umm, no. Game rules claim the J1 ship's captain gets paid twice as much as it costs him to move freight one jump. They also claim the J3 ship's captain gets paid less for moving freight one jump than it costs him to move it.

J1 3 times is 1000Cr/ton/jump = 3000Cr for 3 jumps
J3 1 time is just 1000 Cr per jump, though it was for 3 parsecs

What are you suggesting I'm missing? (The above was "by the rules", as I understand them)

Conclusion: The rules are wrong. Jump-1 ships get paid a competitive rate; if they didn't, some other jump-1 ship would undercut them. Jump-3 ships likewise get paid a competitive rate; if they didn't, they wouldn't exist.


Hans

I agree that the rules have to be "broken" to use the in vogue phrase. I'm a strong believer that any haul should pay "per parsec".

 

[Vladika]

My apologies. I got you mixed up with whartung.


Hans

No problem, it's easy to confuse things in a pure text format.

 

[rancke]

J1 3 times is 1000Cr/ton/jump = 3000Cr for 3 jumps
J3 1 time is just 1000 Cr per jump, though it was for 3 parsecs

That's what I said. Cr1000 is about twice as much (OK, a bit less than that) as it costs to carry a dT of freight one jump with a J1 ship. So any ship that charges that much gets undercut by a ship that charges less and still makes a profit. Cr1000 is less than it costs a J3 ship to carry 1dT, so if it doesn't charge more, it goes bankrupt.

What are you suggesting I'm missing? (The above was "by the rules", as I understand them)

That game rules may work perfectly well for game purposes, but if they don't produce realistic results, they can't be true to a realistic setting. The difference is, you were saying "This is what happens". I said "This is what the rules says happens, but it can't be true."

I agree that the rules have to be "broken" to use the in vogue phrase. I'm a strong believer that any haul should pay "per parsec".

We seem to be in perfect agreement.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It is worth noting that no CT rulebook provided non-subsidized J2+ merchants.

Running a budget box comparison with bigger ships.
J1, 1000Td
Td MCr
01000.0 0110.0 Streamlined Hull
0050.0 0005.0 Bridge
0001.0 0002.0 Computer Model/1
0030.0 0050.0 JD e=J1
0009.0 0020.0 MD e=M1
0016.0 0020.0 PP e=P1
0040.0 0005.0 Staterooms x10
0000.0 0000.0 Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Emergency Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Hardpoints x0, carrying:
0000.0 0000.0 Weapons:
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
0744.0 0000.0 Cargo
01000.0 0212.0 Totals

Assuming standard financing:
00000732.6 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
00000732.6 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

2000Td J3
Td MCr
2000.0 0220.0 Streamlined Hull
00100.0 00010.0 Bridge
0002.0 0018.0 Computer Model/2bis
0115.0 0220.0 JD x=J3
0017.0 0036.0 MD j=M1
0067.0 0088.0 PP x=P3
0080.0 00010.0 Staterooms x20
0000.0 0000.0 Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Emergency Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Hardpoints x0, carrying:
0000.0 0000.0 Weapons:
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
0989.0 0000.0 Cargo
2000.0 0602.0 Totals

Assuming standard financing:
00001678.3 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
00000559.5 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

Under the magic "triple cost" barrier of Mike's challenge, (about 2.4x the cost) AND 1.3x the cargo, effectively only 2.1x the cost per ton to purchase, AND actually cheaper to operate per parsec.

If we presume the KCr1/Td per jump to be an imperial price fix, it simply means there is no commercial shipping available as a primary operation, but lines as subsidiaries can actually still move their own stuff further for less by building and operating J3 shipping... and then reduce operational losses for empty space by selling the cargo haulage at a loss as a "fill the space" rate within the price fix. (In other words, if you've 900 tons of cargo space, and 840 ready to go, sell the 60Td of cargo space to lose only Cr650/Td "empty" instead of Cr1650 per ton.

There are good reasons sociologically to want to keep traders slow - not the least of which is that localized traffic is actually better for the neighbors, since they won't be bypassed.

 

[Vladika]

Screwing the Empire

Wil, you can really "screw the Empire" using your own subsidized ship.

The Empire makes the payment after your 20% investment. For that they get 50% of the GROSS...:smirk:

You pay for your own ships commercial space by charter, 900Cr per ton.

Half of that goes back into your pocket, as the 50% the Empire gets leaves you with 50%

So, charter your own hold, and, even at 1000Cr/dTon you make money.:devil:

Let the Empire make you rich...:rofl:

Should you want the Empire to not be aware, have a "third party" do the charter.

 

[BytePro]

Yeah, the rules, intended or otherwise, optimize the economics for J-1 routes ... with larger jumps being the domain of those who can afford it (even at a loss) - akin to forcing the financially weaker ones out of the game with 'price fixing'...

Why would anyone bother (at least for any duration)? Well, the big boys would be in a position to monopolize control of extended trade... Independents, who somehow manage the more expensive ship (probably not by direct acquisition), must rely heavily on speculative trade to make margin. Governments, who wish to control their trade - or at least take control from megacorp lines - would be left subsidizing.

CT, at least, seemed to present this meta-game/in-game rationale.

 

[aramis]

Wil, you can really "screw the Empire" using your own subsidized ship.

I don't allow subbies to accept charters. They have a fixed route which they MUST run. Deviate from the route, and they issue a Repo-on-sight notice. This is based upon the handling in TTA. They may have some time off-route in the contract. That time, they can accept chartering for...

The subsidizer usually isn't the 3I, but one or more of the served worlds, for whom the investment is as a capital development project; one can reasonably expect part of running the route is carrying goods purchased by a factor (who is actually only "paying" the crew's share of the costs, since the funding source is the financing world). The subsidy may be handled, however, by the IMoT.

 

[BytePro]

Meaning high risk, and commensurate bribes... and likelihood of eventually being 'asked' to transport without asking too many questions.

 

[Carlobrand]

I don't allow subbies to accept charters. They have a fixed route which they MUST run. Deviate from the route, and they issue a Repo-on-sight notice. This is based upon the handling in TTA. They may have some time off-route in the contract. That time, they can accept chartering for...

The subsidizer usually isn't the 3I, but one or more of the served worlds, for whom the investment is as a capital development project; one can reasonably expect part of running the route is carrying goods purchased by a factor (who is actually only "paying" the crew's share of the costs, since the funding source is the financing world). The subsidy may be handled, however, by the IMoT.

Traveller Adventure, March Harrier runs a contract that allows it to depart from its assigned route 30% of the time, and that time appears to be cumulative since the players "built up a credit of 80 weeks" over the previous 5 years - an odd way to handle trade, but there it is.

 

[rancke]

If we presume the KCr1/Td per jump to be an imperial price fix, it simply means there is no commercial shipping available as a primary operation, but lines as subsidiaries can actually still move their own stuff further for less by building and operating J3 shipping...

But they can't move other people's stuff, nor can they move passengers. Which means that the canonical jump-4 passenger liners we know of would not exist, because even Tukera wouldn't be able to make a profit on a passenger cabin.

If instead we assume that the game rules for running free traders are aimed at making it fun to play at running a free trader rather than for providing rules for realistic world-building, we can come up with rules that doesn't rely on heavy-handed time-and-place specific regulations to work (not that the ones we have really work) and actually apply in the rest of Charted Space too, making the rules useful outside the Imperium too, which I think would be kind of nice.

...and then reduce operational losses for empty space by selling the cargo haulage at a loss as a "fill the space" rate within the price fix. (In other words, if you've 900 tons of cargo space, and 840 ready to go, sell the 60Td of cargo space to lose only Cr650/Td "empty" instead of Cr1650 per ton.)

Won't work. The loss in revenue from the extra four days you spend selling the space to others, reducing the number of jumps you can make per year would result in a greater loss than you gain. Better to jump with those 60 dT empty.

There are good reasons sociologically to want to keep traders slow - not the least of which is that localized traffic is actually better for the neighbors, since they won't be bypassed.

There's also good reasons sociologically why governments would support and encourage trade so that they get more in tariffs and taxes. Reasons why Imperial member worlds would strongly resent megacorporate attempts to restrict local trade.

The Imperial price fixing was never the canonical answer. It was fanon aimed at explaining how per jump pricing could possibly work, and it 1) doesn't explain it, and 2) has a slew of unhappy ramifications, starting with an Imperium strong enough and ubiquitous enoug to have an enforcement apparatus that can make free traders toe the line even when jumping between worlds with no Imperial starport personnel at all (Class E starports). Which contradicts other statements we've seen about how remote and weak the Imperium is.

It also contradict a couple of canonical examples of prices charged that differed from the canonical rates.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It also contradict a couple of canonical examples of prices charged that differed from the canonical rates.


Hans

I've seen no such examples set within the 3I.

 

[rancke]

I've seen no such examples set within the 3I.

"Baseru wants the cargo carried for no charge. If pressed, he is willing to pay up to Cr500 per ton for the shipment of the goods.

In any case, he has a better deal. A previous client of his demounted and stored a set of demountable fuel tanks, with a total capacity of 50 tons, in his warehouse and has not returned for them for over 12 months. His price: Cr18,500 (that's the standard price for a year's storage). They would cost Cr50,000 new. If pressed, he's willing to turn them over to the group in return to carrying the; the crew's share of the transport of 120 tons of cargo at standard rates would be Cr60,000, and Cr50,000 (more or less) is a fair return to salvage from this disastrous situation[*]. Besides, the crew has reasons to want to leave the area."

-- The Traveller Adventure, p. 44​

[*] Tukera has snapped up practically all freight and passengers for the next several weeks.​

Please note that I'm not saying there aren't some very hinky aspects to this. For one thing, the Marsh Harrier has to do TWO jumps to get from Natoko to the Patinir Belt, yet the standard rates are supposedly only for one jump. For another, the crew seems to be able to exclude the subsidy holder from the barter deal altogether.

I can't find my copy of Alien Realms at the moment, but one of the adventures features someone giving the PCs a cheap passage from Jewell to Emerald (Made economically feasible by violating the hell out of the canonical passenger accomodation rules, BTW).


Hans