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"Roll Daily. If T is less than Zero, every crew member Check Sanity."

jcrocker

SOC-13
Yes, I know this was totally taken out of context - but I was flipping through the T5 book when I came to page 348, in the ship design section - "Evaluating The Ship".

In the center column, bottom half, is an equation in large font -

Tension: T = C + FLUX where T = Tension and C = Comfort, with a note below that reads

"Roll Daily. If T is less than Zero, every crew member Check Sanity."

My first thought was that this would be a great bridging mechanism for a Traveller / Cthulu crossover - the Cthulu investigators may lose a lot of sanity during the adventure, but not those hardy Traveller characters!

Until they get into a cramped ship for the trip home, and insufficient legroom will do to their minds what Fungi from Yuggoth couldn't.
 
Giime the Thorazine, man! * Just one fix.

Yes, I know this was totally taken out of context - but I was flipping through the T5 book when I came to page 348, in the ship design section - "Evaluating The Ship".

In the center column, bottom half, is an equation in large font -

Tension: T = C + FLUX where T = Tension and C = Comfort, with a note below that reads

"Roll Daily. If T is less than Zero, every crew member Check Sanity."

My first thought was that this would be a great bridging mechanism for a Traveller / Cthulu crossover - the Cthulu investigators may lose a lot of sanity during the adventure, but not those hardy Traveller characters!

Until they get into a cramped ship for the trip home, and insufficient legroom will do to their minds what Fungi from Yuggoth couldn't.
Yeah, that is why I make room for Clinic and Cousellor whenever possible. Drugs and counseling gets a spacer through. :smirk:

Also, there maybe errata on that, but it has been a long time since I looked at the Errata. Been busy otherwise.
 
I don't see any errata on Sanity after having a quick look at the 0.71 doc (waiting for 0.8 is affecting my SANITY:devil:).

Sanity in this context is designed to simulate the effects of living and working on a "sick ship" but you're right about the addition of Sanity making it possible to explore horror in Traveller.

You can find out a lot more about Sanity on p.64 of the BBB

Sanity is the ability to make reasonable, sound use of the mental characteristics. Low Sanity expresses a disconnect between the reality and the perceptions of the character.

You could also use it to model less fantastic situations like characters and NPCs suffering from PTSD or other disorders of the mind.

Oh and drugs and chemical weapons that reduce CS or Sanity
 
Thanks for the reference on Sanity, I'll have a look at page 64 and see what it covers.

Honestly, there are plenty of times when a Cthulu-style Sanity check would be appropriate for a game. There were a lot of Halowe'en scenarios in Challenge magazine that come to mind: the teleporter alien that took out the research station, or the Rule Of Man warship that had found the polymorphing killer android for example.

Taken out of context, without knowing a definition of the term 'Sanity' as used in these rules, it strikes me as funny. As long as we avoid the non-Euclidian acceleration chairs in ship design, it should be okay.
 
There was a Digest article "Losing it" which had some nice rules for developing, and treating, mental illness amongst characters. I used some of the Cthulhu phobias with them.
 
Yes, I know this was totally taken out of context - but I was flipping through the T5 book when I came to page 348, in the ship design section - "Evaluating The Ship".

In the center column, bottom half, is an equation in large font -

Tension: T = C + FLUX where T = Tension and C = Comfort, with a note below that reads

"Roll Daily. If T is less than Zero, every crew member Check Sanity."


My first thought was that this would be a great bridging mechanism for a Traveller / Cthulu crossover - the Cthulu investigators may lose a lot of sanity during the adventure, but not those hardy Traveller characters!

Until they get into a cramped ship for the trip home, and insufficient legroom will do to their minds what Fungi from Yuggoth couldn't.

Now, if the Jump time lasted for several months, I could sort of, maybe, to a very limited degree, see some basis for this. By the Rules, Jump lasts one week, plus or minus a few hours. So, no, my "willing suspension of disbelief" totally breaks down at this point.
 
Now, if the Jump time lasted for several months, I could sort of, maybe, to a very limited degree, see some basis for this. By the Rules, Jump lasts one week, plus or minus a few hours. So, no, my "willing suspension of disbelief" totally breaks down at this point.

I don't have access to the full rules, but is it a case where you would never fail unless you had serious penalties from months of long term stress? Kind of a "your sanity won't be threatened until X, Y, and Z, but when it is, you'll just snap on some random day?"
 
What this rule is meant to represent is that living and working on a small cramped poorly designed ship (or more precisely one with a high crew to crew space ratio) will eventually have a negative impact on the mental health of the crew.

This certainly doesn't mean full on flip a switch insanity. It can start out as poor morale and wear away at the crew until somebody snaps, either going postal or quitting or getting fired at the next port of call. Most likely an extreme case where a character "becomes insane" i.e. San= 0, they receive a Mod on tasks based on Edu or Int and the difficulty is Uncertain.

Only if Tension becomes negative will the crew have to make a San Check and then only if a crew member's San is abnormally low (less than 5) are they anywhere likely to fail. Each failed San Check only reduces Sanity by one level so to go "insane" a crew member would have to fail 4 San Checks in a row.

The whole situation can be avoided by providing a spacious common areas and staterooms, by prescribing medication, or by giving the crew access to counselling via a Counselor or a special console that provides counselling services.

[EDIT because I confused Ship Ergonomics rating with Ship Comfort Rating]
 
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What this rule is meant to represent is that living and working on a small cramped poorly designed ship (or more precisely one with a high crew to crew space ratio) will eventually have a negative impact on the mental health of the crew.

This certainly doesn't mean full on flip a switch insanity. It can start out as poor morale and wear away at the crew until somebody snaps, either going postal or quitting or getting fired at the next port of call. Most likely an extreme case where a character "becomes insane" i.e. San= 0, they receive a Mod on tasks based on Edu or Int and the difficulty is Uncertain.

Only if Tension becomes negative will the crew have to make a San Check and then only if a crew member's San is abnormally low (less than 5) are they anywhere likely to fail. Each failed San Check only reduces Sanity by one level so to go "insane" a crew member would have to fail 4 San Checks in a row.

The whole situation can be avoided by providing a spacious common areas and staterooms, by prescribing medication, or by giving the crew access to counselling via a Counselor or a special console that provides counselling services.

[EDIT because I confused Ship Ergonomics rating with Ship Comfort Rating]

Or regular liberty visits to ports.
 
What this rule is meant to represent is that living and working on a small cramped poorly designed ship (or more precisely one with a high crew to crew space ratio) will eventually have a negative impact on the mental health of the crew.

This certainly doesn't mean full on flip a switch insanity. It can start out as poor morale and wear away at the crew until somebody snaps, either going postal or quitting or getting fired at the next port of call. Most likely an extreme case where a character "becomes insane" i.e. San= 0, they receive a Mod on tasks based on Edu or Int and the difficulty is Uncertain.

Only if Tension becomes negative will the crew have to make a San Check and then only if a crew member's San is abnormally low (less than 5) are they anywhere likely to fail. Each failed San Check only reduces Sanity by one level so to go "insane" a crew member would have to fail 4 San Checks in a row.

The whole situation can be avoided by providing a spacious common areas and staterooms, by prescribing medication, or by giving the crew access to counselling via a Counselor or a special console that provides counselling services.

[EDIT because I confused Ship Ergonomics rating with Ship Comfort Rating]

A World War 2 Liberty Ship had a gross register tonnage of 7,191 tons which equates to approximately 1440 Traveller dTons. The ships had a peacetime complement of 42 (for detailed breakdown see Liberty Crew at this site: http://www.usmm.org/libertyships.html), and carried between 12 to 27 additional Naval Armed Guards during wartime, for a total complement of between 54 and 69. They had a cruising speed of 11 knots. Assuming a voyage in peacetime from New York to Southampton in the UK, they covered a distance of 3200 nautical miles in about 12 to 14 days, depending on the weather in the North Atlantic Ocean. In winter, that is viewed as the most difficult ocean to sail across on the planet. If sailing from San Francisco to Brisbane, Australia, the travel time in peacetime would about double to 24 to 26 days, while wartime voyages would last a month or more. The ships were not designed for comfort, but for the maximum cargo capacity at the lowest cost.

With the full wartime complement of 69, the ship's were crewed at the rate of 1 person per 21 Traveller dTons, with the peacetime complement, the crew rate was 1 person per 34 Traveller dTons. In rough terms then, 5 persons per 100 dTons in wartime, and 3 persons per 100 dTons in peacetime.

What manning rate are you assuming in your Traveller 5 universe which is going to exceed those manning rates per Traveller dTon, considering that the quarters on the Liberty ship were far less spacious and comfortable than you would get if you designed a ship under Traveller rules. Also, the voyages lasted anywhere from twice to 4 times or more as long.

Then you have the accommodations for sailing ship crews, for which information can be found from reading the opening chapters of Frank Bullen's outstanding book, Cruise of the Cachalot, which can be downloaded from Project Gutenberg. You also have the crew lists in Theodore Roosevelt's, The Naval War of 1812, for the USS Constitution and a ship-rigged sloop of war. The 44-gun frigates were rated with a crew of 400 men, the Constitution had on board 456 in its combat with the HMS Guerrière. I will not even get into the dense manning onboard of US Fleet submarines in the Pacific during World War 2, nor of the overmanning of some of the destroyers in World War 2.

Are you claiming that the conditions on a standard ship, built under standard Traveller ship-building rules, are so much worse than the examples cited that a Jump of 1 week may cause sanity problems? If you are, then kindly spell out quite clearly those conditions.

I repeat, my "willing suspension of disbelief" totally vanishes at this point.
 
Can you get constant fresh (non canned) air in a Liberty Ship? Yes?

Can you go outside (on deck) without special attire in a Liberty Ship? Yes?

Can you get constant fresh (non canned) air in any kind of space ship?

Can you go outside without special attire in any kind of spacecraft?

A better comparison is submarines. Not WWII subs (they require surfacing to recharge batteries daily), but boats that live all their lives underwater but when they are in port.

What causes the sanity issue is the enclosed spaces and the feeling of inescapable walls closing in. Claustrophobia. The very thing that being able to go on deck into open air eliminates.
 
Can you get constant fresh (non canned) air in a Liberty Ship? Yes?

Can you go outside (on deck) without special attire in a Liberty Ship? Yes?

Can you get constant fresh (non canned) air in any kind of space ship?

Can you go outside without special attire in any kind of spacecraft?

A better comparison is submarines. Not WWII subs (they require surfacing to recharge batteries daily), but boats that live all their lives underwater but when they are in port.

What causes the sanity issue is the enclosed spaces and the feeling of inescapable walls closing in. Claustrophobia. The very thing that being able to go on deck into open air eliminates.

As you and I appear to have two totally different views of the Traveller Universe and of the rules in T5, you may do whatever you wish in yours. My view of rules is that they are guidelines, to be used or ignored as desired.

In mine, there will be NO SANITY ROLLS.
 
As you and I appear to have two totally different views of the Traveller Universe and of the rules in T5, you may do whatever you wish in yours. My view of rules is that they are guidelines, to be used or ignored as desired.

In mine, there will be NO SANITY ROLLS.

I didn't say that there would be in mine, and there won't be. My point was that you are using a fallacious example.
 
I didn't say that there would be in mine, and there won't be. My point was that you are using a fallacious example.

The two most recent incidents of major crew sanity issues, EgyptAir Flight 990 and Germanwings Flight 9525. both occurred with individuals who had full access to the outside air, excellent lodging and food, and far less than crowded conditions.

I did have to deal with the issue of "cabin fever", also known as "mord sick" in the Scandinavian countries, while in Alaska. Systems of that took far longer than one week to develop. A week or two leave in the "Lower 48" would do wonders to ease the problem. A star ship's crew is typically in the star port every other week, for an average of a week. If on a Free Trader looking for cargo, it could be longer. In addition, a ship's crew would have signed on knowing what they were in for. While in the Army in Alaska, we would regularly get replacements in the month of November and December from areas of the Lower 48 where snow and freezing conditions were virtually unknown. Given that these soldiers were about 18, and at that time, taken because the volunteer army was just getting started, and they did happen to be breathing, my unit did have to deal with the fallout from that.

As for your view that my other examples were, as you put it, "fallacious", you are entitled to your viewpoint, as I am entitled to mine. I consider this discussion ended.
 
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first, lets put things in perspective, re-read the "sanity" rules.

Sanity is Reduced by Crises. When characters encounter
Crises (battles, extreme stress, environmental situations,
psionic attacks, drug interactions, and others), there is
the chance that Sanity will be reduced.
Check Sanity. Failure reduces Sanity -1.

so sanity is linked to PTSD. PC and NPC are not robot. This is a device to force upon players that are warm, dry, munching and drinking their favorite, that PC and NPC that are cold, wet, ungry and scared like hell are not robot and will start to be disfonctionnal after a while. Any decent wargames have "morale" roll for troops

Sanity= Zero Is Insanity. When Sanity is reduced to
Zero, a character is subject to an automatic Mod (= Flux;
rolled new with every use) for every use of Intelligence and
C5= Education or C5 = Training (but not C5 = Instinct) and
the task becomes Uncertain (1D)

so consequences are not "crack pot goes rampaging" unless the ref make a NPC do so as a point af adventuring. It is akind to extreme case of co-worker disfunctions: showing up drunk or been absent minded because they have a problem at home or focussing on office politic rather than office work...

Beyond the fact that game mecanic does make it easy to avoid insanity with a bit of morale awareness by PC leader, you may (should) reflect Sanity in career choice. Submariner or special forces are selected from the drafted crowd (or refused volunteer enlistment) after psy evaluations. Your PC should have a "tricked" sanity roll to reflect their pre-careed selection for a high combat/environmental stress career (give them an automatic 6 on the second dice)

The Tension for crew is simply handled by providing adequate accomodations. T5 desing rules are much more sophisticated when it come to accomodation than CT. You could seriously overcramp accomodation, recreating 19th early 20th century steerage and all the variable grade of accomodation for passengers of the golden age of shipping. If you apply this to crews, you get wwii submarine grade accomodation. Fine but there is a price to pay. You can design to get an automatic pass on tension rolls. So there is no tension roll abord my ship design, I simply follow the IMO (International Maritime Organisation) and IlO (International Labor Organisation) rules, and everybody is an happy camper until the pirate attack.:devil:

Note that bridges and manning were also sophiticated beyond 20 tons is fine and who care for watch keeping.

have fun

Selandia
 
There is some errata against this, because Marc and I talked in general about the social and psychologcal differences between a military crew and a civilian crew. For sample, the crew aboard a sub -- those conditions would drive me batty, but if I were trained to work military duty on one, I suspect I would be alright.
 
In mine, there will be NO SANITY ROLLS.

Glad that's settled.

How do you use RU? That question has caused me to make some sanity checks.

I think long term living on spaceship with a lo ergonomics score would cause a person to gradually lose their mind. Rules like this are easy to judge and the mechanic is simple, so it's another tool for my toolbox.

I welcome my insane alien overlords.
 
Glad that's settled.

How do you use RU? That question has caused me to make some sanity checks.

I think long term living on spaceship with a lo ergonomics score would cause a person to gradually lose their mind. Rules like this are easy to judge and the mechanic is simple, so it's another tool for my toolbox.

I welcome my insane alien overlords.

Those ROBOT overlords. The computer is your friend.
 
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