Robots

[kafka47]

I would have to agree with my buddy Solo. Traveller is need of a massive overall, if it is going to retain its position as the authoritive SF game on the market. (I tend to view T20, as a work in progress and have given up on other versions of Traveller.)

On the issue of Robotics, it seems that the Traveller rules were designed with the mechanics correct but little was left to the imagination beyond. Therefore, if you wanted to build flying toasters with an IQ to tell you that your toast was burning Book 8 (and many of the Robots in 101) did give you the mechanic.

I always wondered how the debate in Traveller regarding computers - Organic or Non-Organic Cores went. [side note: can anyone tell me...]

I don't think Traveller with its limitations on technology can provide an adequate system for robots because of its fixation with old SF (read: 1950s plus lasers). However, it lays the basis for the new SF by giving us a wonderful universe to play in. Sometimes, I think it will be neccessary to "Screw it...it the Far, Far Future" (Traveller's Milieu) they will have solved that problem long ago and our 21st century minds could not grasp the explaination.

To build robots, we might see something like we saw in the Spielberg flick (AI) - an AI-hybrid society. But, we might build a Human future instead...and I think that is what Traveller postualates.

So while I do love the Traveller universe, I think it is beginning to lose some of its wonder because of the obsession with the mechanics rather than the role playing aspects.

 

[Strephon XVII]

You mean you have no Robots of any kind?

I remember back in the day, there were two accepted Robotics systems in use, one was given in the Journal (an Early Issue, dont clearly remember) and the other was in Dragon Magazine #64. The latter was presented as to Robots having a URP (universal robot profile) similar to a High Guard set of statistics, and the former was more of a robot as a device kind of deal. It gave you a clear choice as to wether robots were Entities, or Robots were devices. It all seems to pivot on at what tech level a asimovian "Positronic Brain" is introduced, and what that entails. I have read several posts on this topic, and to the school of thought that wants Terminators, I say, WHY? Terminator was a story that illustrated perfectly what happens if you make robots too strong, too smart and too many. (ever see Battlestar Galactica??) I have never thought of the field of robotics as being one that produces devices that in the wrong hands and a little reprogramming, could easily kill you. It makes as much sense (aside from the novelty) as making a Robot Dog or (barf) a Robot Boy that can love. Robots should ultimately serve a purpose, do a job or fifty, and justify why you would blow that many credits on designing and building them.

My Top Picks are:

1. The Drones from Silent Running
2. R2D2
3. C-3PO, valet types
4. The Cops from THX-1138
5. Robbie from Forbidden Planet
6. Walter from Judge Dredd

Robots Serve. They shouldnt go crazy and start snapping necks. It may be good Science Fiction to have them do so, but it still makes no sense when you really give it some thought. I prefer my robots to keep quiet, make some drinks, and fix my damn Jump Coils when i tell them to... After all, I paid for them, right?

PS: I would have brought up ASH, BISHOP, ROY, PRISS, and whatnot, but wouldnt that be better under the topic of SYNTHETIC LIFE ?

 

[Iyesu]

Well, I suppose the right thing to do is look at the entire spectrum of functions that could be performed by machines. Automation is the issue. Plant tending, like in Silent Running, is sensible. C3PO being a language/protocal assistant is helpful... since if C3PO says something stupid, he can serve as the focal point of any bad reaction while the team runs away. Taxi drivers, like in Total Recall make sence... in any event, I agree with previous posters in that the CT books don't help out much. I have more luck making my own catalog based on what I've gleaned from other sources.

 

[Jame]

I sort of like the cybershells from _Transhuman Space_.

 

[spank]

One big problem from a meta-game stand point is the robot servant, somebody said "I want my robots to be quiet and fix my jumpcoils when i tell them to" If these kinds of robot exist it changes the balance of the game, by changing the make up of the team, my take engineering when you can have the maintainence robot do it? why have the first aid skill? Of course you could handle it like the shadow run skillsofts, the more skilled the robot the more expensive. say 100,000 cr for a first aid 'bot and ten million for a doctor.

 

[bromdenlong]

Originally posted by Secrect Cow Level:
Most sci-fi games tend to do poorly in the area of robots. Even ALTERNITY (which I don't like but it did cover all the bases nicely) had only a small and very poor section on robots.

I've only played two games that handled robots well. The best by far was GAMMA WORLD. It had a detailed section on different types of robots as well as how to design them (without requiring an engineering degree!). You could design a robot for any purpose with a varity of chasis materials, locomotion, sensors, and weapons/tools. It would require some work to adapt it to TRAVELLER but the results might be worth the effort.

The other was WORLDS BEYOND, a sci-fi game that modeled itself after TRAVELLER and was quite good. It had a short but well written chapter on robot design that would work well in TRAVELLER. It allows for any type of robot from simple house cleaning bots to artifical intelligence and human-like androids.

I have Gamma World, and, yes, it is a much simpler system. I was tempted to use it to save time, and then decided I wanted 'canon' robots. Big mistake. I spent ten times the effort to design one robot than I ever did coming up with a ship. Next one I design, I'm definitely using the Gamma world system.

My intent is to use the Doctor/Engineer robot I created as a 'referee mouthpiece' - a NPC that I can use to give players general info or suggestions without having to speak as the voice of God or continually be saying "It occurs to player X that..". The robot is fifty-some-odd years old and very intelligent,well-read, well-traveled, and expensive enough that he adds several million credits to the price of its owner's far trader (he came with the ship).

I agree that truly intelligent warbots would unbalance the game. I think that security bots that only detained people or tranquilized them might be a reasonable compromise.

Robots must be hardwired somehow to lack all resentment of their servitude.

How? No idea. Then again, how does jump drive really work?

 

[manley_t]

I think that maybe creation of robots has taken too much of a gear-head approach and should maybe be apporoached from the point of creating a character instead of creating a vehicle.

What about the 'off-the-lot' lego-block method. You buy Chassis A and it gives you X stats. You buy a 'brain' and it gives you Y stats. You then buy the skills and programs to into that brain.....

The big difference would be the robot's ability abstractly reason and draw correction from unrelated facts....what we would call imagination.

Robots would be good for task oriented things, but having robot fighter-pilots would be like fighting a computer game's AI. They can be predictable nad one can be good enough to beat them all the time.

Likewise having a robot tech is good -- fix A because A is broken. But for Engineering would could involve jury rigging or some pretty imaginative 'work' robots wouldn't be good at (IMO).

This is why robots aren't in my current campaign except as background dressing....no rules that I like for 'having' them....

anyway....just some thoughts.......and maybe an idea or two.....

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Well met, Lord Tim!

I agree that the Preponderance of Gearheadery in this matter does it no great service... There should be install ready parts for robots by TL15... this would make them affordable for the light stuff. I agree with Strephon above (its easy to do, since he's me, hehehee!) in regards to the social implications of robotics... While it is true that Robots could outperform humans in most tasks, but that offers a lot to a storyline.... A world where cheap to produce Robots cause massive unemployment or make everyone so idle that the culture is destroying itself... Self replicating robots faced with some herculean task, "breed" out of control...

misapplied robotics is science fiction gold, what?

 

[Jame]

Actually, why not have a planet of runaway cybershells/robots that won't take kindly to organics?

 

[Orionruse]

Robots in Traveller.... As far as the development of robotics in the game-- I agree that the use of robots and technology should not necessarily overshadow "the human connection."

Some worlds may be more advanced in robotics than others: however, a world overrun by technology-- ala "The Terminator," should also have more conflict than man vs. machine. I feel that "The Terminator," though a great low budget film, missed something. Sure, we got to see humanity's fall from overreaching itself. If a character were to visit a similar world in Traveller, it would be good to see how people react to their environment. People will not necessarily band together, but be out for themselves. Necessity is the overriding factor in human behavior. There probably should have been scenes of people stealing things from each other-- Lord knows it really happens in the service.

Granted, "The Terminator" did show people banding together against extermination-- but seeing people also competing for limited resources would have gone a long way to showing why everyone seems bitter in the future.

Which brings us back to the reason for my ranting...

Robots... A "Terminator" type world also has great potential for exploring humaniti. The T-100 in T2 did reach out to people-- a stark contrast to the cold attitude of the T-1000. Robots, though the antagonist, are the reason for humanity's travails-- not the cause. Humanity is to blame!

 

[Colin]

Originally posted by Jame:
Actually, why not have a planet of runaway cybershells/robots that won't take kindly to organics?

Al ready in the OTU canon. Sabmiquys (sp?), only TL17 (18?) planet in the Imperium. Inhabitants are xenophobic robots left over after their creators killed themselves in a war. Red-zoned, of course.

 

[plop101]

Lord Rhys writes:

Robotic fighters aren't used, because humans don't trust them. Even an alien opponent may have some "humanity", but no military is going to take living beings out of the decision loop.

At one time robotic fighters were used, in the GDW game Double Star, but then that game was declared NON-canon by THE ANCIENT WHOSE NAME IS NOT SPOKEN.

TJ writes:

tick tock, tick tock, one of my robots is ready to blow ....can you find it in time?????? [Eek!] [Eek!]

Yeah, I think I saw it go into your Ships Fresher..

KABBOOOM!

Oh well, never mind.

For Spaceman Spiff:

This may not help, but here's a bot I've been playing with, using Andy Akins Robot Design Worksheet.

R0-A0 Engineering Bot
Designed by Plop101, produced by General Products.
Built with Andy Akins Robot Design Worksheet.

Engineering Bot 3220A-L2-LC111-D711 Cr82,890 79 kg

Fuel=5 Duration= 1.4 TL=10
10/25 (mesh)
2 light arms
1 basic sensor package, 1 voder
1 power interface

Engineering-1

NOTES: Possibly the first dumb bot used for assisting Type S Scout Pilots. Very basic, and very slow, but better than nothing.

 

[Eamon]

IMTU I make a large scale use of robots.
The robots have an ability to learn and are easy for the average person to control.
They are not AI types.
They are housekeepers,industrial workers,maint bots to be used in any dirty,dangeous job.
I use maint bots aboard starships to perform routine maintance and repairs. They hidden behind the panel so to say.They have their own maint corridors were they can reach 80% of the ship including the workshops.
They are under human supervision and work 24/7. As they are working if not needed for repair, perform the various service checks needed for ship certification (including the annual maintenance). This is what the FAA allows airliners to do for their annual maintenance. Next time when you are stuck on the ground for two or more hours this is what the mechanics are doing. Every time that plane is on the ground a group of mechanics complete part of the aircraft annual maintenance.
Robots are important in space because every one robot can replace 3 crewman in most jobs. Not only that you would not need the life support and space those 3 crewman would use.
I use small robots in the life support areas to perform light repairs and housekeeping duties.
The humans are the supervisors assigning the robots to different jobs and checking on their work.
I never used the idea of robots as killers. A human says I want beat that guy with a hammer. A robot instructions is telling it to take that hammer to these xyz coordinates with x amount of force then repeat. Under these conditions a human would have to be right there to be in danger.
I still use robots in war as a maintenance support force freeing up humans for other jobs. The robots could load the artillery piece but a human would make the decesion where to aim and fire.

 

[Whipsnade]

IMTU, robots are toasters. They are found everywhere and are used everyday. They also look nothing like what our 'primitive' 21st/22nd Century ideas think robots should look like. Robots aren't generalists, that's the human's job. Robots are specialists. And the people of the 57th Century don't even think of them as robots.

Robots aren't bipedal, human shaped, metal or plastic clad devices clunking about beeping and blooping as they performing their various tasks. C3P0 and R2D2 belong to Star Wars and Data is part of ST:TNG. Traveller robots are expert systems, designed and built to perform certain tasks very well. If you need a robot to vacumn your apartment are you going to design a Tin Man who can push around a vacumn cleaner or are you going to design a vacumn that controls itself? Why cripple a robot by giving it only 2 legs, 2 arms, and 1 head? A robot welder doesn't look like a Tin Man with a torch in his hands, it looks like a welding torch that can position itself where needed. A robots shape and form fit the job(s) it needs to do.

A denizen of the 57th Century lives in an apartment that cleans itself, cleans up after it's oocupents, handles all communications, pays the bills, does most of the shopping, and hundreds of other chores. IYTU there's some sort of mechanical Jeeves doing all that. IMTU the apartment is doing all of it. Does my 57th Century apartment dweller live in an apartment or does she live in a robot?

Robots are toasters. Robots are telephone poles. Robots are mailboxes. They are everywhere and they are completely ignored as they go about their tasks.


Larsen

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

<snippage of thoughts close enough to mine own that you are definately on my growing list of potential psionicists in the Traveller community >

If you need a robot to vacumn your apartment are you going to design a Tin Man who can push around a vacumn cleaner or are you going to design a vacumn that controls itself?

Precisely so, in fact has anyone else seen the infomercial for the roomba ?

A denizen of the 57th Century lives in an apartment that cleans itself, cleans up after it's oocupents...

Larsen

...closer than that maybe, see above for a "foot" in the door for household robotics. Granted its got a long way to go yet but its coming. If only they had given it more power and the smarts of the robotic mowers that find their little recharging pen when the juice gets low. One of my project ideas last year, if I can find one cheap, was to swap the mower bits for a decent vacuum cleaner for my "more power, ar ar ar" version of a roomba, but that was before I knew they made this cute widdle toy

Hey, you know that thing looks about the right size to glue my Millenium Falcon model kit hull around

 

[Prometheus]

wow

 

[Zutroi]

The usual reason for designing your vacuum bot as a humaniform that can push around a vacuum is...

A vacuum cleaner can't do dishes.
A dishwasher can't clean windows.
A squeegee-bot can't cook dinner.
etc, etc, etc.

IF you postulate robotics in YTU (I don't BTW, except in the most limited form. There are just too many people looking for work...), consider which version of robotics a household is likely to find most useful, twenty special purpose bots, or a generalist, preferably one that uses tools instead of attachments so your place doesn't turn into a Vargr's lair when the bot is in the shop.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

The civilian bot that is seen most often IMTU is a Jeev-Bot. It's functions are:

- Answer all incoming calls, paging the recipient or recording the message (Answering machine).
- Maintain running inventory of all consumables (Inventory clerk).
- Monitor environmental factors (Thermostat).
- Monitor security factors (Carbon monoxide, Radon, Intruder, and Fire alarm).
- Monitor the general health of all beings within sensor range (Thermometer, tachymeter, etc.)
- Scheduling (SHED-yew-ling) and directing the actions of lesser bots.

Most owners use the factory default moniker of "Jeeves" (pre-Empire anglic for "Trustworthy Servant"). Most owners also dress their Jeev-bots in black tie and tails (formal day wear).

The default appearance is as an almost featureless chrome-plated mannikin. No Jeev-bot has ever been sold from the factory as "anatomically-correct", although there are third-party aftermarket retrofits - all of which void the factory warranties.

 

[Whipsnade]

"The usual reason for designing your vacuum bot as a humaniform that can push around a vacuum is... (snip of a list of household chores)"


Sir,

That argument reminds me of the late 19th Century illustrations showing various autmobiles made up to look like horses. Rather than designing or imagining a purposely designed whole unit, the folks then thought of autos merely replacing horses and not as vehicles in their own right. So, you had devices pulling the same carriages that horses did, devices built to look like horses, etc. Saying that a house robot must be humaniform so that it can use the same tools and appliances as a human means we're making the same mistake.

Robots need to vacumn the house, so they'll use the same vacumns and do the job in the same manner we do? They'll do dishes, so they'll need a sink, water, dish soap, wash cloth, brillo pads, just like we do? They'll wash windows just like we do too? Sure, just as an automobile works exactly like a horse.

Sure, Jeeves-bots are more fun in an RPG, having C3PO R2D2 beeping around is kewl, but is it plausible?

We all make a lot of noise about Traveller's 'lack' of robots. I think that 'lack' is just a paucity of what we, 21st Centurians, think of as robots. When we hear 'robot' we think of Tin Men, sophisiticated certainly, but Tin Men nonetheless. Yet the vast majority of robots operating right now are nothing like Tin Men. The vast majority of robots on the 57th Century won't be Tin Men either.

Why doesn't there seem to be a lot of robots in Traveller? Becasue they exist and work below people's radar, that's why. When was the last time you noticed a telephone pole? A manhole cover? A TV aerial? An electrical substation? That's what robots are in Traveller, they are toasters and telephone poles and most definitely not C3PO and R2D2. Those style of 'bots are still odd enough to be noticed, all the others are not.

Getting back to our household chores robot, IMTU Joe SixPack does not own a valet 'bot. It's not becuase they are too expensive, it's because he doesn't need one. Everything you mentioned is taken care of by the house or apartment he lives. The dwelling keeps itself tidy and handles its occupants needs. Joe SixPack *lives* inside a robot, his apartment. He doesn't need a Jeeves-1115 model.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
The usual reason for designing your vacuum bot as a humaniform that can push around a vacuum is...
<snip>
consider which version of robotics a household is likely to find most useful, twenty special purpose bots, or a generalist, preferably one that uses tools instead of attachments so your place doesn't turn into a Vargr's lair when the bot is in the shop.

That's easy. I'd take the 20 special purpose bots, or possibly a central computer controlling 20 special purpose remotes. The 20 special purpose bots, plus their control systems, are unlikely to be more expensive than the one generalist plus its control systems.

Building a generalist system is good for tasks that are done rarely. For tasks that are done frequently, a specialized tool usually does a better job, cheaper.