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Robots in combat

Just a question...

How do robots affect military operations in YTU? Are they used heavily, just a little bit here and there.... not at all?

It seems that as those TLs keep getting higher, it makes less and less sense to use manned vehicles and infantry when you can just send in the bots, but then there must be some value added that wet brains give to a military op that can't be provided from a control room somewhere.

The way I'm thinking now, robots are used heavily to augment infantry and assist in laying down a real-time battlefield intelligence network. The primary role for robots isn't stand up combat, but rather to float around corners and into dark spaces and become a cloud of eyes and ears for sophont troops.
 
Robots are used as soldiers, heavy infantry, guards, fire support, and recon. If a unit takes heavy casualties, robots become troop replacements until sophonts can be brought to the field. That is there upside.

The downside is they cannot interrogate prisoners, distinguish between rebels and civilians
 
I know that the SAAB and Dassault (well mostly Dassault) have a joint study on having semi-independent flying drones attached to each fighter. This would make the pilot and the Rafale/Gripen - the normal fighterjet - a mothership of sorts, for a bunch of nEUROn's.

The actual fighting would mostly be done by the drones.
 
Logistics...

Well, since the Accords I figure most of the Warbot use will be for Logistics and as noted above Comm/Scan types.

OTOH, the Zhodani tend to use Warbot more extensively than the 3I, but even they use them to support sophont troops and not on their own.
 
Robots are used as soldiers, heavy infantry, guards, fire support, and recon. If a unit takes heavy casualties, robots become troop replacements until sophonts can be brought to the field. That is there upside.

The downside is they cannot interrogate prisoners, distinguish between rebels and civilians

This begs the question... why sophonts at all? They could stay behind or use their wet brains to "ghost" during sensitive operations, and they could show up to interrogate prisoners when necessary. It seems to be more politically useful to keep citizens away from risking their necks directly. Unless... once all the numbers are in, robots still end up being more expensive than sophont grunts.

Or perhaps there is some social or cultural reason to keep young soldiers out in the front lines.
 
IMTU a battledressed trooper has a range of robotic sensors that can extend his eyes/ears, and some robotic weapon systems that can do some of the fighting for him.

Too much information can't be processed by a person anyway, you need some sort of expert computer system to help sort the incoming data - at higher TLs these expert systems are pretty much as we would describe AI today.

The only reason I can see the Imperium to skimp on robotic fighting units is cost - a human in a suit of battledress is cheaper and more easily replaced than a TL15 robot.

And remotely operated robotic battledress/vehicles would need autonomous commands for the eventuallity of signal jamming.
 
The only reason I can see the Imperium to skimp on robotic fighting units is cost - a human in a suit of battledress is cheaper and more easily replaced than a TL15 robot.

And remotely operated robotic battledress/vehicles would need autonomous commands for the eventuallity of signal jamming.

I can see electronic/robo-psychological warfare as being the biggest roadblock too.

Perhaps they are not deployed because of it being to easy to just use the enemies uniforms/radio devices to impersonate the robot's commander. Or the large processing networks required for "smart" robots can easily be disabled with microwave weapons/emps/etc.
 
An odd little thought.

It could be, like most things in life, gaming and real, a very complex situation.

One reason could be political of all things, like the reinforcing the populations feeling that the Imperium cares enough to send actual humans to fight the conflict and thus is involved. The old blood and treasure, and that keeps the Imperium from committing to wars and skirmishes that it might not if it could just send in the Poor Bloody Robots. The Citizens know it must be serious, look the Emperor sent real live grunts to fight and die. Much more impressive than the Robo Brigade.
 
Culture and cost

Robots can not think as fast, or flexible or show compasion (culture thinking not ness. facts.)

It is cheaper to throw bodies at an enemy than a robot (both culture and truth).

But that is talking mainly Imperial thinking.

Hivers always deploy robots for war (besides a few other races).

Just a few of my thoughts

Dave Chase
 
Robots have always been a sticky point to me because it's yet another of those points in OTU that simply doesn't make any sense once you scratch any deeper than a nail's depth.

We know that in the OTU there's the Shudusham Accords that forbid the use of robots in war. We also know from a number of canon sources that the Zhodani Consulate doesn't follow the Shudusham Accords and used warbots extensively. It would appear that unlike the Imperial Rules of War, the 3I actually follows the Shudusham Accords itself. That the Shudusham Accords were designed to make the 3I a "human universe" was clear and I agree with it. It's just that GDW ruined it when they pointed out that everyone else didn't follow the rules...

To me, it seems, even being a TL below the 3I, the Zhodani should have been able to make major gains with the use of robotic fighters against the 3I, not just warbots on the ground, but robot-controlled ships (for instance "Berserker"-style robot battle-riders - ships without jump drive, you just drop them into a system then jump out and let these behemoths wreak havoc until they're destroyed) - the losses the Zhodani take simply don't make sense to me. Zhodani love their sons and daughters too. If the 3I got close, why wouldn't the Zhodani have just sent waves of drones at the 3I until the 3I withdrew, then sign a peace accord? That the Zhodani used warbots on the ground extensively (again, a canon point as opposed to my earlier speculation), it shows that warbots are cheap enough to be considered as a method to preserve life.

The only thing I could imagine is that the 3I perhaps has some device that can trump robots - perhaps some Ancient relic or a technology.

IMTU, I postulate the invention of a device called a DCD and a DCS. A DCD is short for Digital Cognizance Detector. DCS is short for Digital Cognizance Suppressor. Research and discovery of the principles only occurs in the 3I around late TL14 and early TL15, however, if the principles were explained (or a genius with insight came along) DCDs could be developed as early as TL13, while a DCS could be developed as early as TL11 - similar to fusion bombs and fusion reactors, it's much easier to develop a weapon that will supress digital devices than it is use the principles to do subtle things like detect it. It's the deepest, darkest secret of the 3I and are controlled directly by the Emperor. Even Archdukes aren't aware of the existence of DCD/DCS technology - when the devices arrived, Norris simply knew of them as "Specials" but never had any control over them. They were operated by special Navy units. Obviously the Zhodani and higher Imperial nobles are aware that the Emperor has some sort of special technology, but don't know how it operates or who does it. Zhodani military thinking to keep the 3I off-balance pretty much has a timetable that depends entirely upon achieving their goals before whatever this Imperial technology is arrives from its secret mustering points to the frontline.

I've never really considered on what principles the DCD/DCS work on, only that a TL15 DCD would be pretty coarse - it would have to be a pretty "smart" robot for the DCD to detect it from orbit (a TL18 one could detect a 21st century digital wristwatch from orbit). It's basically handwavium on the level of grav plates for me, just to make the Traveller world more "livable" for me. Likewise, a DCS is a large field-projector that is finicky and power-hungry and would require a specialized vessel the size of a battleship to mount to give it any kind of decent range. Under the influence of a DCS, digital devices simply stop thinking - the device itself suffers no long-term problems (unless, say, it's mounted in a jet which then crashes), it simply stops working for the duration that it's in the device's field. The effect is nearly impossible to shield against, though its effect on "dumber" devices drops to being nearly negligible - it really only suppresses "smart" digital devices. The limitations are that a DCS is large (as described earlier) while a DCD is even larger - the sensor array basically impossible to deploy anywhere but in space, requiring multiple data collection sites with a baseline around 100km for an orbital array with any useful resolution on individual warbots on the ground.

Now, many of you will wonder why the heck I came up with such an overcomplicated solution to the robotics problem. But see, I run a Traveller: TNE variant campaign and the DCD/DCS eventually will become a critical weapon against the Virus, which seems to have all the advantages against "meat" beings. The DCD/DCS is what is going to put the AIs on a more level footing with everyone else, instead of being the "elves" of Traveller with nothing but advantages.
 
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It could be, like most things in life, gaming and real, a very complex situation.

One reason could be political of all things, like the reinforcing the populations feeling that the Imperium cares enough to send actual humans to fight the conflict and thus is involved. The old blood and treasure, and that keeps the Imperium from committing to wars and skirmishes that it might not if it could just send in the Poor Bloody Robots. The Citizens know it must be serious, look the Emperor sent real live grunts to fight and die. Much more impressive than the Robo Brigade.

I think you hit the nail on the head. What would happen if every tom, dick, and harry was able to launch his own revolution when he had a few robots lying around? It certainly doesn't gel well with the 3I's chivalry mythos.
I'd imagine that the ownership or production of a wartime robot would be restricted because of their ability to allow a rouge commander to be a faux revolutionary at the drop of a hat. (This is barely touching on the problems of what happens when these machines are hacked).

I'd also imagine that several AI cognizance revolutions have taken place as well making any large AI force a liability.
 
AArrggghhh - do you play WoW?

It's rogue not rouge.

;) ;) ;)

Ahem, anyway, while I was still a moot member I posted there about MTU explanation for the real reason for the fall of the Rule of Man. During the Interstellar wars the terrans fielded AI aids to naval personel (canon - MT timeline IE). I postulated that these AIs also aided in the terran government that was set up after the war to bring about the RoM.
The machines were able to see the writing on the wall and the eventual conflict between man and machine so they chose to leave - thus causing the long night as the government/mercantile structure fell apart.
I used this as the backstory to a campaign and it was great fun.
 
So...

From what I'm getting here, I'm thinking of a blended approach to robots in warfare. Bear in mind that I'm interested in running a campaign set during the dying days of the Pacification campaigns, so I envisage warfare in TL12 terms. Nevertheless, the model should hold. Canon this is not -- a blanket prohibition on robots in war makes no sense IMHO.

Meatbod troops in small units are linked to each other, and the larger command structure through a rhizomic network of radio (no los)/laser (los) communications. Each unit has at least one robot deployed in a recon/support role, that feeds battlefield information into the global military information net. They move via contragrav and sport fusion plus or batteries, and are about as small as is technologically feasible. They mount what is essentially the equivalent of an ACR, target designator and grenade launcher, and excel at laying suppression fire, or dosing the area with FB's or smoke to cover retreats or advances -- but combat is not their role. They are a recon/communications hub... they have an advanced sensor suite, including microwave radar and ultrasonic sonar. Their AI systems are oriented toward establishing immediate situational awareness, sorting through as many details as possible, from the rats in the garbage to the sniper in the window. They also act as a major node for the communications network linking the unit to each other and the army as a whole. They have the "juice" to boost the signal for greater distances, or float up high to establish LOS laser contact.

Robots are not optimal platforms for high threat-weapon systems... as was mentioned, robots are vulnerable to hacks and electronic warfare and can't be trusted with major firepower. They are expensive, but not dear enough to mount the even more expensive point defence systems found on Battledress troops.

Their ubiquity in the Imperial Army has relegated them almost to mascot status, and recruitment posters often have the spherical Recon Bot in the background.
 
Spot the Zho!

Well Renaissance Man, you have discovered the Zhodani model of Robot warfare. :p

Though they do use them more in a combat function, but that is pretty much the Zho Robo-playbook.
 
Hmm...

How surprising that a small army of game designers have, over the course of thirty years, come up with the same ideas as yours truly ;)

Maybe I should spend some time reading all this stuff, rather than mucking about in my own head...
 
Just a question...

How do robots affect military operations in YTU? Are they used heavily, just a little bit here and there.... not at all?

It seems that as those TLs keep getting higher, it makes less and less sense to use manned vehicles and infantry when you can just send in the bots, but then there must be some value added that wet brains give to a military op that can't be provided from a control room somewhere.

The way I'm thinking now, robots are used heavily to augment infantry and assist in laying down a real-time battlefield intelligence network. The primary role for robots isn't stand up combat, but rather to float around corners and into dark spaces and become a cloud of eyes and ears for sophont troops.

I'd probably use them more for utility and the odd scenario, rather than feature them prominently. I have quite a few gadgets that come into use
but once again, it's more for novelty.

These aren't bad (and nicely priced) although I only own the 2nd one.

http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=CSRTHR01

http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=CSRTHR02



>
 
If you're not worrying about the accords, but still want to keep the "human element" as important in warfare (as opposed to massed fleets of combat robots), I think a very critical point of robots would be to provide more eyes and bait. These could probably be combined in a single type of robot.

Essentially the robots would be reasonably cheap to manufacture and assigned in large numbers - in fact, each trooper in a squad might have two robots (one he uses, and the other a replacement) when out in the field, or perhaps there'd be one or two "Robot Operators" per squad. These robots wouldn't be armed themselves, and would be little more than a multi-sensor platform with some sort of propulsion and lift mechanism (contragrav and thrust plates if you're using them) - this reduces the danger of a technically advanced foe "hacking" a robot and using it against your forces (for instance, by fooling a robot into believing the enemy's orders are valid orders and so on). The design would be spherical as you suggest - a featureless cover used both for aerodynamic purposes as well as to generate doubt as to which way the sensors are looking to an outside observer.

Squads would use these robots to scout ahead, look around corners and similar "immediate recon" tasks which are usually pretty hazardous. In a combat environment, they'd spot the enemy for you (either by you seeing them or the enemy shooting them, either way you know about where the enemy is). In a patrol environment, you could use them to look around corners, investigate suspicious stuff on the ground, and so on. A lot of the robot's task would simply to function as a remote-piloted set of eyes. However, the robot would also provide aid in identifying suspicious things, sorting them in the likeyhood of being a threat, and forwarding that information onto a controller and if set to "patrol" or "roam" robots might float around snooping things out themselves.

Added to the fun might by Imperial Navy "Recon Carriers" which are essentially fast, small ships which can enter an atmosphere swiftly, release a large number of these robots over an area, then move off somewhere - either high in the sky or in a concealed area, whereupon the robot operators could collect data on the ground to direct precision strikes from orbit. Other duties might involve simply dropping off drones in the middle of nowhere and so on as a method of misdirection against an enemy who equates "recon robots = Imperial Marines in the area" - the robotic programming would make then snoop around and act normally.

Their value would probably the most immense in a pacification situation, where literally tens of thousands of robots could be used to create a sort of "paniopticon" situation of insurgent cities - a few floating at every street corner, as well as patrolling every block in the city, probing about with high-gain mics to listen into conversations, and using millimeter-band and thermal sensors to snoop inside buildings. The robotic AI could easily arrange the robots so that they can watch each other - anyone who attacks one robot would be seen by a few others and identified and troops could then be sent into the area, or the insurgent's movements monitored. No-one in the city could ever be sure if the robot floating around overhead was being controlled by a person or the more fallible AI. Of course, the robot operators would create a new kind of training that would have to be "deprogrammed" from soldiers when they leave the military ... voyeurism addiction.
 
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Ah yes...

Says Magnus of Thornwood, The Archmage of the Realm of Pangeia, in the Age of Shadows, once of Ancient and Mighty Netheril, Recognise that Spell, It is Called "Arcane Eye" IIRC. :p

Really that's the first thing that came to mind when I hit the Grunt with his two Drones. Oh and the ubiquitous surveillance systems are almost in place. Aren't Robot cool....next thing you know, humans enslaved and Jihad. :smirk:

Still it rocks on the balance sheet. You could make a killing in these. Why the shares on the grav modules ought to be up there as they can also be used for grav belts for the Battle Dress Marines. *cha-ching*
 
Don't think that didn't come to mind. But as people are so fond of saying on these boards, the 3I isn't a democracy and doesn't really care about "human rights" and so on.

And: One of the bigger justifications of sci-fi as serious literature is in the form of cautionary tales...
 
OK, smarty dude...

Don't think that didn't come to mind. But as people are so fond of saying on these boards, the 3I isn't a democracy and doesn't really care about "human rights" and so on.

And: One of the bigger justifications of sci-fi as serious literature is in the form of cautionary tales...
Emphasis added.

Then again I ask don't they listen some times....we need more gamers in government, I mean really, a gamer think tank and a decent clearance, what could we do then?

"Umm, ok, Mr. President, we gamed and discussed this and yep, naming the computer 'skynet' and then giving it control of the killer robots....that sir is a disaster in the making, we say tell the Air Force to get real, and keep some monkeys in the loop sir. I mean, they have waaaayyy better response times than us, and have played some of this latest gen war video games...expert killing software...yep, Vetoed. Thank you for your time."

Of, course, we might just try and discuss it to death and start the occasional flame war. *shrug* Probably both if we were exceptionally lucky. *grin*
 
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