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Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres revisited.

So the fix: the Outcasts have at least partial control of Leenitakot's defense systems. Any uninvited guests are eliminated quickly and efficiently by TL27 tech, leaving little trace behind.


That would work very nicely to prevent landings on or close investigations of the ringworld. It still won't prevent interest in the system however.

Remember, while the meteor defense prevented landings in Niven's books, there was a very nasty war going on in the outer system between Kzinti, ARM, and other powers. While those powers may not be able to access Ringworld at the moment, there's still enough potential for all those species to travel quite far beyond their space and fight each other.
 
The number of working artifacts of all sizes should beggar disbelief. The ringworld isn't some blasted ruin or forgotten campsite. It's merely partially finished and there should be plenty of goodies left from when the Ancients decided to "down tools".

Not necessarily - I believe this item is on the table. In fact, I think the meaning of "partially completed" itself is on the table.

And as Joshua mentions above, it is also possible that a united front of locals have partial control over the meteor defense system, and therefore can reduce fleets to cosmic dust.
 
That would work very nicely to prevent landings on or close investigations of the ringworld. It still won't prevent interest in the system however.

Sure, but this interest may not be enough to reach it. After all, men on Earth were interested on the moon quite before we could reach it (though we could study it, as it was visible from far)...

Remember, while the meteor defense prevented landings in Niven's books, there was a very nasty war going on in the outer system between Kzinti, ARM, and other powers. While those powers may not be able to access Ringworld at the moment, there's still enough potential for all those species to travel quite far beyond their space and fight each other.

ITTR that a ringworld would need all materials in a system (star aside). If so, there would not be outer system to speack about. See that this makes refuelling difficult at best without landing...

And about the defenses, well, it survived Final War, so, if they exist, they can be quite more formidable than just to keep meteors away...
 
In response to your statement about the time it took.


I use the example of one group of artifacts and mention they were partially reverse engineered in decades and you choose to think I meant all Ancient artifacts can be partially reverse engineered in decades? :rofl:

No, I get the argument. I just think that it's flawed. An expedition to some place far away has opportunity costs for anyone who organizes it. If the respected return is too low, it won't be done. And whether or not you think you have a candle's chance in a hurricane of reverse-engineering anything you can find there is certainly going to be a factor in the decision-making.

Flawed? Only because you didn't think of it first, right?

Anyway, the Hivers, Imperium, or Solomani aren't going to think the "costs" are too high to each travel a little over a sector and bitch slap a TL C Minor Race in order to investigate the largest known Ancient artifact in Chartered Space.

That's an assumption. Not an unreasonable assumption, but not a foregone conclusion either.

Ancient artifacts, whether working or not, are generally found at Ancient sites, so much so that everyone shows a great interest in investigating any previously or recently discovered Ancient site in the hopes that artifacts may be found.

But in this case you want to believe that an Ancient site the size of a ringworld won't have any artifacts at all because this one time the Ancients finally remembered to clean up everything?

And, of course, you want to believe this so you can pretend that no one other than the Outcasts will show any interest whatsoever in the Leenitakot ringworld.

Talk about special pleading! :rofl:

For a guy whose tagline states "It also has to make sense", you sure go out of your way to defend complete nonsense. ;)
 
ITTR that a ringworld would need all materials in a system (star aside). If so, there would not be outer system to speack about.


Oh for pity's sake... :rolleyes:

For "outer system" read "beyond the reach of the meteor defense system".

Does that make sense now?
 
Oh for pity's sake... :rolleyes:

For "outer system" read "beyond the reach of the meteor defense system".

Does that make sense now?

More so, really.

It's been a longtime since I read Niven's Ringworld, but IIRC the war with the Kzint1 had ended, and neither humans nor Kzinti were aware of the ringworld...
 
Not necessarily - I believe this item is on the table. In fact, I think the meaning of "partially completed" itself is on the table.


Sure, because this one time - unlike all the other times - the Ancients remembered to clean up.

This one time - unlike all the other times - they packed up everything - even the crumbs to small for a mouse - and left nothing behind that could possibly be of any interest to anyone.

Whatever there is the system, whatever is left in the system, there's enough of something for millions (pop code 6) of Outcasts to somehow live there.
 
It's been a longtime since I read Niven's Ringworld, but IIRC the war with the Kzint1 had ended, and neither humans nor Kzinti were aware of the ringworld...

There are four books in the series now. The 2nd came out 10 years after the first. Niven took the opportunity to correct somethings he originally overlooked like the need for attitude thrusters and silt distribution while also expanding the backstory.

At the end of the first book, Humanity is aware of the Ringworld because, if you'll remember, Wu survived brought back a humanoid native to Ringworld. The Kzinti are aware of the Ringworld because, if you'll remember, Speaker-to-Animals survived and returned to the Patriarchy.
 
Sure, because this one time - unlike all the other times - the Ancients remembered to clean up.
Where do you get the 'unlike all the other times' from? Do you have a complete list of all Ancients sites that the rest of us are not aware of? You actually believe that you have a scintilla of evidence for the notion that no Ancient ever cleaned up after himself? On the contrary, several known Ancient sites had only weird structures devoid of any artifacts. And the ones that were cleaned up completely we wouldn't know about, would we?

Of course, the projects that got terminated with extreme prejudice during the Final War wouldn't have been cleaned up. But there were 20,000 years worth of projects before that.

This one time - unlike all the other times - they packed up everything - even the crumbs to small for a mouse - and left nothing behind that could possibly be of any interest to anyone.
Maybe the first people to reach the ringworld removed any loose artifacts that were lying around.


Hans
 
Then why bring it up?


It's very relevant to the claim that TL25+ technology would be un-reverse-engineerable. The fact that one example of TL18 technology was reverse-engineered to a TL15 version does not disprove that claim.


Hans

The T5 rules make it only reverse-engineerable at TL-3.

The TL18 tech globe is able to be "prototyped" at TL15.

TL is as much a collection of physics understanding as anything else.
 
There are four books in the series now. The 2nd came out 10 years after the first. Niven took the opportunity to correct somethings he originally overlooked like the need for attitude thrusters and silt distribution while also expanding the backstory.

At the end of the first book, Humanity is aware of the Ringworld because, if you'll remember, Wu survived brought back a humanoid native to Ringworld. The Kzinti are aware of the Ringworld because, if you'll remember, Speaker-to-Animals survived and returned to the Patriarchy.

I remembered they returned (I did not about the native they take with them), but I understood (as it seems wrongly) that you meant when the expedition was mounted.

In any case, TY for reminding it to me.

Sure, because this one time - unlike all the other times - the Ancients remembered to clean up.

This one time - unlike all the other times - they packed up everything - even the crumbs to small for a mouse - and left nothing behind that could possibly be of any interest to anyone.

Unlikely, I agree, but, again IIRC, in Niven's ringworld thech was lsot due to some contamining bacteria infecting vital circuits. Maybe the enemies to the builders in the Final War engineered (and achieved to release) something like it...
 
There are four books in the series now.

6 books, actually.
5 main line: Ringworld, Ringworld Engineers, Ringworld Throne, Ringworld's Children, Fate of Worlds. Plus, there is a prequel book, Protector.

Note that Fate is also the captsone to the parallel Fleet of Worlds series, (and brings them together): Fleet of Worlds, Juggler of Worlds, Destroyer of Worlds, Betrayer of Worlds, Fate of Worlds.

So, essentially, the arc is 10 novels.
 
I read the third and fourth Fleet of Worlds books last month. I'm about a third of the way through Ringworld's Children, and have Fate of Worlds on my table here. I finished Throne on Saturday, Engineers a few days before that, and Ringworld at the start of last week.

The system was cleared of planets and moons, but the oort cloud (or whatever it's called) is still there, so there is plenty of ice and debris for hiding and maneuvering. Also, the comets weren't cleared out, probably for the same reason(s).

Niven's Universe

The meteor defense is a plasma/flare-induced laser from the sun itself. Having speed of light ranges mean it is effective only against the inside of the ring; I have not gotten to any info yet on whether or not it has a defense on the rim.


Traveller Universe

Turning now to Traveller, a TL 27 Ringworld would not have such a primitive defense. Instead it would rely on direct psionic or reality manipulation for "ranged" problems. Closer in, Inducers, Pressors, Stasis guns and Disintegrators would take care of local problems. Suffice to say that there is enough surface are along the rims (inner, outer, top and bottom sides both) to field many many spine-sized meson gun clusters with Deep Space ranges. Finally, the ring itself is likely to have TL 27 screens: white globe generators, for example. A lot of them.


Leenitakot

Whether or not Leenitakot has any of the above is up for grabs.

The state in which it was left is up for grabs.

Anything not bolted down may have long since drifted away.

It has neither atmosphere nor soil, right?

What I infer is that it is at least a ring frame, and that it has functioning technology that keeps it in its orbit.

It might not be spinning.

It might have been spinning at one point, complete with atmosphere and soil and life, but some clever Grandfather engineered a simple and effective attack: stop the spin, and everything flies away. Maybe Yaskoydray also invented a gigantic Hoover vacuum cleaner.
 
Traveller Universe

Turning now to Traveller, a TL 27 Ringworld would not have such a primitive defense. Instead it would rely on direct psionic or reality manipulation for "ranged" problems. Closer in, Inducers, Pressors, Stasis guns and Disintegrators would take care of local problems. Suffice to say that there is enough surface are along the rims (inner, outer, top and bottom sides both) to field many many spine-sized meson gun clusters with Deep Space ranges. Finally, the ring itself is likely to have TL 27 screens: white globe generators, for example. A lot of them.
Sounds like the Outsiders found a key.


Hans
 
I read the third and fourth Fleet of Worlds books last month. I'm about a third of the way through Ringworld's Children, and have Fate of Worlds on my table here. I finished Throne on Saturday, Engineers a few days before that, and Ringworld at the start of last week.

The system was cleared of planets and moons, but the oort cloud (or whatever it's called) is still there, so there is plenty of ice and debris for hiding and maneuvering. Also, the comets weren't cleared out, probably for the same reason(s).

Niven's Universe

The meteor defense is a plasma/flare-induced laser from the sun itself. Having speed of light ranges mean it is effective only against the inside of the ring; I have not gotten to any info yet on whether or not it has a defense on the rim.


Traveller Universe

Turning now to Traveller, a TL 27 Ringworld would not have such a primitive defense. Instead it would rely on direct psionic or reality manipulation for "ranged" problems. Closer in, Inducers, Pressors, Stasis guns and Disintegrators would take care of local problems. Suffice to say that there is enough surface are along the rims (inner, outer, top and bottom sides both) to field many many spine-sized meson gun clusters with Deep Space ranges. Finally, the ring itself is likely to have TL 27 screens: white globe generators, for example. A lot of them.


Leenitakot

Whether or not Leenitakot has any of the above is up for grabs.

The state in which it was left is up for grabs.

It might not be spinning.

Anything not bolted down may have long since drifted away.

It has neither atmosphere nor soil, right?

What I infer is that it is at least a ring frame, and that it has functioning technology that keeps it in its orbit.

It has a population living upon it. That rules out being just a frame. :CoW:

Physics implies it needs baffles to keep the atmosphere spinning with, so it's likely built out of a series of discrete cells - and a single operating cell would be sufficient for the Outsider population thereupon.
 
Possible fix: IIRC Niven's Ringworld sported very powerful defenses to thwart asteroids. We know, canonically, that these were common for even planet-bound Ancient installations, both for defense and traffic control. We also know, from canon, that it is possible for non-Ancients to gain control of them.

I'm citing CT Adventure 3: Twilight's Peak here obviously. For those who don't have it handy: a physical (?) globe of Fulacin is augmented with holographic (?) display of nearby ships down to a resolution of 60m (scale: 0.1mm). Using control consoles nearby, the display is augmented (visually? telepathically?) to 100 times the previous scale. Using other controls, a representative (?) sphere can be made to appear, and moved within 1m of the globe. If this overlap ships and is released, the ship disappears leaving no trace or debris. (I misremembered the bit about traffic control, possibly thinking of the gateway controls in T4's Long Way Home.)

...

Challenge #39 has some details about the Stalkers. They had sublight ships and acquired Jump drive from the Solomani (in theory); it's therefore probable they've been in control of Leenitakot for thousands of years, before the major powers (Vilani, Solomani, K'kree, Hivers) appeared in Hinterworlds.

The Stalkers are not warm to intrusions into their realm. This has led to frustration in the xenoarchaeological community as within the borders of the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky is the Leenitakot system (1432). Both Imperial and Solomani scientific communities are constantly negotiating for exploration rights, but to date only four have been granted.

The Stalker policy on unauthorized intrusion is simple: Destroy the intruders. Regardless, many free traders have risked their lives penetrating deep within the Stalker worlds for some unique spices and plant life which can be found nowhere else.

Taking this as canon, it would seem the Stalkers are not under threat from fleets vying for control of the ring.

...

If I were writing the adventure:

The Stalkers exploring the ringworld noticed G-band interference which led them to a control room. The room has a scale representation of the ringworld and the system out to 2 radii from the central star. Anything in this moving under power or large enough to threaten the ring appears as a holographic display. Similar to the control room in the Ancient complex at Fulacin (although with an entirely different set of controls), similar "erasure" bubbles can be deployed to wipe threats from existence. Ships can also be relocated by "control" bubbles, which allow a pocket of space to be repositioned instantaneously (no light-time lag, no acceleration) anywhere within 2 ringworld radii from the central star.

Since the Stalkers discovered this, the control room (one of six...) has been continuously staffed and operated, preventing any unauthorized visitors anywhere near the ringworld. A position as one of the 36 monitors is the highest honor a Stalker can have; it is the apex of the cultural paranoia/curiosity about the stars.

Each of the major powers has attempted to explore or take control of the Ancient artifact several times since learning of its existence, with efforts ranging from single scout ships to fleets. In every case, the intruders have been destroyed, with no warnings given and no trace ever discovered. The Stalkers do not see this as punitive, simply as a cleansing. Expedition rights have been granted in the past and there is every indication that they may be again. While unwelcome intruders are dealt with quickly and efficiently everywhere in the polity, the Stalkers are not completely insular.

...

The Hivers, of course, are totally playing "us non-verbal communicators need to stick together, yo" angle and working long-term to influence the sect that staffs the ringworld control.
 
It has a population living upon it. That rules out being just a frame.

System stats (per Ch#39 and T5SS) are given as X77A6BB–5, PBG of 310. T5SS lists 8 (!) other worlds.

It's entirely possible there's just a skeleton crew (relatively speaking) on the artifact, living in small (relatively speaking) pressurized compartments, and the Stalker population lives on a lovely world - Leenitakot proper.

Also of note: 80% of the population is Chirper; only 20% of the 3 million (600k) are Stalkers.

(IMTU: There was a much bigger population at one point, but one of the major powers jumped a fleet in and effectively took the planet-bound population hostage, demanding access to the ring. When this proved futile they dropped nukes, which explains the atmospheric taint. Still, no bueno.)
 
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