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Revamp of ships' computers

JAFARR

SOC-14 1K
Peer of the Realm
I have an idea for the revamp of Traveller computer design. I would like your input as to what parameters need to be included. Did I miss anything in the proposal below? If you like this idea, give me some input as to the set points of these parameters.


Proposal for reworking computer design

In light of modern day computer development, I hereby propose the following changes to Traveller shipboard computers. In view of how robot brains are constructed, make ships’ computers from components in the same fashion.

Basic discussion

Each model computer has a minimum TL at which it becomes available. At this TL it is a certain size (either volume in kl or size in dtons) depending on the system you are using for your design. As TL increases, this size is decreased due to more functional designing until a minimum size is reached. The minimum size is a function of connections, as it still requires a certain amount of space to connect input devices and output devices (controls, sensors, etc.)
With respect to ships, there is a maximum size ship that a given computer can control. To put another way, a minimum model (or size) computer is required to operate larger ships. The number of inputs a computer can process and the number of outputs it can generate in a given amount of time dictate these sizes. These numbers have nothing to do with the number of programs that can be installed in a given computer.
Which brings us to memory. Memory comes in two forms. Book 2 and High Guard assigned each computer program a number of spaces within the CPU or in storage. Modern computers also have these features. We use Megs of RAM as Traveller uses CPU spaces. Then Traveller used spaces of storage as we use Gigs of hard drive space. When MT came along, focus switched to control points that a computer could operate (either as input or output) instead of spaces in the computer.
High Guard added the fiber optic backup computers as a method of resisting radiation damage and MT added Electronic Circuit Protection, but as far as I can tell they were supposed to do the same thing.

Proposal

Give each model a minimum starting TL, a maximum size ship it can control, a starting size, and minimum size. Keep these sizes smaller like MT did so that having multiple computers is a feasible plan that does not require massive amounts of space and money. Also assign the maximum number of programs each model can operate at once. Make it possible to add to CPU capabilities by adding memory to increase the total number of programs that can be operating at once (up to the listed maximum), and allow increasing the storage capacity (up to a specified limit). I would suggest that each model start with a given capacity that can be increased as money allows, but that doing so would not affect overall size of the computer as this would basically adding to expansion connections that are already allotted component space.

Questions left unanswered

If you choose to keep both fiber optic backup and ECP, give clear directions as to what the purpose of each is, and how it effects damage to the computer. Some form of protection is clearly desirable especially in combat vessels.
I am not sure if the robot method of having different sets of operational instructions is really required for ships’ computers unless it will be used to provide brain functions for built in robotic devices (like a gunner position that takes voice instruction.) Also would it be feasible to have synaptic storage in a computer?
 
"Each model computer has a minimum TL at which it becomes available. At this TL it is a certain size... As TL increases, this size is decreased"

T4 already does this.

I dropped the idea of specific programs even before Traveller did.
 
I was thinking (I know; it is very dangerous for me and I may hurt myself)

Could computers be reduced by nano technology down to the conections and data storage at the molecular level? The wires connecting the computer could be used as memory or circuitry?
;)
 
Thinking is good exercise, just don't fall for the old "no pain, no gain" mantra ;) If it hurts you're doing it wrong, unless you're a masochist in which case you've got it right :D

Anyway, back to the topic and your question. You could shrink the "computer" all you want but the problem is always one of interface. If it's too small you can't operate it or repair it without specialized equipment. There's also a host of other issues such as shielding and heat dissapation that limit the practical size of a useful computer.

Given what Traveller "ship" computers are capable of I have no major problem with the costs or sizes.* I am in the minority on this it seems so for those who see the need, do elaborate, I will follow it with interest even if I have little to contribute.

* TL is another story ;) and since that is part of your proposal I'll add my thoughts on that now.

I think any model number of computer should be doable at any sufficient TL, I'd put it at TL7 myself. The difference in TL is, as in the real world, is chiefly the difference in processing speed, interface nicety, and reliability. So a TL7 model/9 computer will be slow and prone to hanging and require reset, you'll have to enter programs and commands by bulky media like tape reels and manual interfaces like keyboards and track balls. Compare that to the TL15 model/9 that is blazingly fast, never (almost) balks and writes it's own programs and interacts with you like a real person. That's the way I'd explain/re-design the rules and do for mtu.
 
This is actually confirmed to some extent by that odd ship the Annic Nova which has what appears to be a TL12 computer system with 3 times the standard mass for such a system.
 
Could you accomplish something similar by reducing the given size of a system at higher TL's?
I don't have the books handy, so my numbers are off, but as an example: Let's say a Model 5 is available at TL10 and displaces 5 tons. At TL11, the same model 5 would displace 4 tons, 3 tons at TL 12 and so on.
I think I'd stay with a 1 ton minimum for ship installations due to the room required for media storage, access, interface and repairs.
Conversely, you could increase computing power by increasing the size. The Model 5 above would take 7 tons at TL9, 10 tons at TL8, and so on. Probably best to have an upper limit on that. Maybe 2 TLs.

Just some thoughts.
 
Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
I have an idea for the revamp of Traveller computer design.
Post your design sequence docs, formulae, and charts, please.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
I have an idea for the revamp of Traveller computer design.
Post your design sequence docs, formulae, and charts, please.
</font>[/QUOTE]I haven't started yet. The idea is less than 48 hours old (at least to me) and I was asking if there are some other factors I need to include at the start. Also a friend who has just started Traveller, has my book of reprints right now. (I am trying to ween him off D&D.)
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Each model computer has a minimum TL at which it becomes available. At this TL it is a certain size... As TL increases, this size is decreased"

T4 already does this.

I dropped the idea of specific programs even before Traveller did.
I have 1 T4 book. Maybe I need to get it out and see if it is the basic rules or something else. That might be a starting point to build the rest of it around.
 
Ya know, just the other day, I read where they are about to start with holographic storage on discs (like CDs), that will give storage in the terabyte+ range. These should make DVDs obsolete in 10 years.
 
Iemember my first computer (the one I used to write the Unfinished Thesis in the 1980s) had 64 K RAM, no HD and only the OS in ROM. The Apollo navigation computer had an incredible 48K (incredible for the 1960s). But traveller just missed the whole integrated circuit revolution, so computers after TL6 are garbage.

Interface? That is what the bridge tonnage is for. Controlling the engines? Then why don't they blow up or shut down when the computer is battle damaged? Life support? Same. Computing a jump can't be that hard because in Book 2 it takes computer "space" comparable to normal space navigation. And a 8086 in a 1980 IBM PC can handle that.

But in terms of game effects a CT ship's computer handles navigation and combat targeting, +1/lvl (High Guard rules) So I assume that those functions are handled by dedicated processors, either on the bridge or weapons themselves. The tonnage and cost in ship design ultimately only affects targetting so I keep the DTons the same and assume it is a sensor suite. The only real difference in game terms is on my deckplans where I make sure my sensors (that were "computer") have access to the outer hull.

I understand there have been some recent rules supplements wit detailed sensor rules this is incompaable with. I would rather ignore suppements I have never seen and keep the shipyard rules close to canon.

My "Ships Computer" is a processing unit that serves as a router for the dedicated processors for various systems, a server for mass storage, but mostly as a crew interface. It is a minor part (0.5 dton? 0.01 Dton? I won't say so I won't be wrong) of the bridge percentage. I wrote the following as gudelines for the interface. They could be extended to robots, come to think of it.
Uncle Bob said,
These interfaces were generally standard on computers at the appropriate TL, no extra cost. They were first introduced on dedicated research machines, +1 TL on ship and office computers, +2 TL on personal computers, +3 TL on handheld computers. (ie, at TL 13 your Ships computer may be an AI, and you're pocket PDA would have an Artificial Personality.

Punchcards & teletype (TL5)

Keyboard & CRT (TL6)

Verbal Interface (TL7) Just uses verbal commands and spoken responses instead of the keyboard. Think classic Star Trek. I used maritime protocals to prevent mistakes from misinterpreted orders (if it works shouting orders in a gale, it should work for a dumb machine on a quiet bridge.)
For example, "Shut down engines"
Shut down power plant, aye
"Belay that! Secure the MANEUVER drive."
Belay shut down power plant, Secure maneuver drive, aye.
pause
Maneuver drive is secured

Artificial Personality (TL9) Adds social amenities, but may not always be appropriate (like the ship in Hitch Hikers Guide). Seldom used for crew functions, but often for PDA.
Good morning, Ms Vanaprul, this is the morning of your seventh day on "The Duchess of Regina", and thank you for choosing Tukhera lines, the safest way to travel in the Spinward Marches. Breakfast is now being served in the lounge, or a continental breakfast can be sent to your room. The Captain asked me to tell you that we did not come out of jump as expected last night, and that may cause some inconvenience. Have a GREAT day.

Artificial Intelligence (TL12) The computer is aware of it's environment and can draw conclusions and make appropriate choices, but, like an idiot savant, only in some areas. Like Hal 9000,
We have a problem in engineering, Captain. I know we have been using it heavily, but following the guidelines programmed at the last overhaul, I am shutting down the maneuver drive for repairs.
With expert systems (and sometimes a manipulator or robot) installed it can act as a crewman in an emergency at a skill level 1/2 the expert program.

Self Aware (TL14) We are talking about a full silicon-germanium NPC here. Its feelings can be hurt (although it also has professionalism) and with social skills even.
When I was fixing the coolant leak after the Pirates chased us, I saw some suspicious tool marks on the fittings. Captain, I know the manager of Smithson's Shiprights is a friend of yours, but the pirates may have bribed one of his techs. I suggest we get our repairs done in a different yard this time.
A self aware computer can take full advantage of Expert systems, and may or may not pass port clearance regulations as a crewman.

At TL16 we can have fully automated ships.

You can also buy "expert systems" that will assist a player with specialist knowledge and proceedures.
If the PC has no expertise in that field but a basic understanding of the tools and equipment (i.e. a Engineer trying to Navigate, etc), he can perform as if he had a skill of 1/2 the program level. If the character has at least one level of the appropriate skill he can use his skill or the programs skill, whichever is higher.
TL applies to engineering programs: -1 for ecery 2 TL higher, -1 for every 3 TL lower. I.e., a +2 TL10 program is +1 with a TL12 or TL13 drive, no help with a TL14+. A +2 TL14 pogram is only +1 with an old TL8-11 drive

Price varied. Ship skills were about a 100KCr/level.
NOTE: these are probably as broken as the original rules, but good Lord willing and river don't rise, we won't know that for another generation. They are already twenty years old and holding up pretty well.
 
I like that, Uncle Bob! Of course, I think it needs a stipulation that hands-on things (turning wrenches) don't get as much benefit unless there is a robot involved. Mechanical/electronic combo tasks (torque wrenches with electronic readouts, say) might get more, but not all, the benefits.

How about a storage size layout, along the same lines?
 
Fritz88, that is where "basic familiarity" come in. The Expert program can coach you through using a torque wrench, but if you can't tell the difference between a decal and a bolt head, you are SOL.
I did telephone tech suport for nearly ten years. It is amazing how much hands-on stuff the average joe/jill can be coached through.

Not quite sure what you mean by "storage, size, layout" but the whole point is to cause minimal changes to ship design and deckplans.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Not quite sure what you mean by "storage, size, layout"
Just that storage size should be done in the same fashion as you did the other guidelines. My Atari 400 with 64k of memory, vs. my Athlon with 1GB (same physical space for the memory), vs. some TL 10 wristcomp. Also, 5.25in floppies with 64KB of storage, vs. CDs w/ 650MB, vs. this new holographic storage w/ 1TB on a disk.

Of course, maybe that's what you mean by "minimal changes to ship design"?
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Thinking is good exercise, just don't fall for the old "no pain, no gain" mantra ;) If it hurts you're doing it wrong, unless you're a masochist in which case you've got it right :D
It is always so nice to hear poeples helpful comments here.
It truely makes me feel like part of the family to receive positive feedback on my comments and comments on my ideas.

Now if I can only figure out what nice reply I can make here?.......HHMMMMM..... :D
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What denomination is a "Terabyte"?

I know Mega, and Giga but have not been updated with Tera.
 
Then I thought of another question.

How Much computing power can you fit into a human sized robot at TL 10 to TL 14?
Enough to have a self suficiant AI?
 
Tera is Gig*1000 (Apologies purists, Yeah, I know it is an approximation).

I have multiple terabyte arrays at work. They are pretty common these days.

If you have 4 250 Gb Disks you have a terabyte available. Guess we need to come up with a new term.

Petabyte (still a rare term) is the category above terabyte. Petabyte = 1,000,000 Gigabyte (approx). Personally I don't see it making its way into common vernacular. The sizes involved are such that it isn't really important to the average user. 125,000 full length movies uncompressed takes up about a petabyte. If you watched continuously (no sleep, 24*7) this would take approx 30 years to watch. That or 2 millenia of MP3's.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Not quite sure what you mean by "storage, size, layout"
Just that storage size should be done in the same fashion as you did the other guidelines. My Atari 400 with 64k of memory, vs. my Athlon with 1GB (same physical space for the memory), vs. some TL 10 wristcomp. Also, 5.25in floppies with 64KB of storage, vs. CDs w/ 650MB, vs. this new holographic storage w/ 1TB on a disk.

Of course, maybe that's what you mean by "minimal changes to ship design"?
</font>[/QUOTE]I see what you mean. I assume that above TL8 since I don't have a good "feel" for what storage is neccessry, terabytes, thousands of terabytes, and quantifying is not usually necessary. I assume the ship's computer can store as much data as I can afford (and data costs, look at DVD prices). At higher TL portable data is encoded in 3D in crystals, so the main limitation is an envelope to manipulate it. Something like a "thumb drive" is about right.
 
the following gives the SI prefixes (and is pert of a really good measurements site):
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/prefixes.html

Technically, a Gigabyte, since 1999, has been 1000, not 1024, Mega bytes, and a terabyte is 1000 gigabytes...

since the SI has now binary prefixes:
Ki- kibi- 1024 (2^10)
Mi- mebi- 1 048 576 (2^20)
Gi- gebi- 1 073 741 824. (2^30)
Ti- tebi- 1 099 511 627 776 (2^40)

but truth be told, no CS persons I've ever heard of give a whit about the new prefixes.
 
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