Retro-Tech: Uncommon solutions to problems on 11,000 worlds

[boomslang]

Thanks for that, Boomslang. So a TL2 world could be a renowned source of blades. I think maybe the chefs, hairdressers and surgeons might want their steel stainless, though.

Well, it might be a personal preference. A butcher might prefer a tougher cleaver, whereas a dessert chef might only need to cut soft fruit...

Does use of chromium require high TL, or did it just remain undiscovered? I'm just wondering why stainless steel has only been used recently.

It requires exceptionally-precise temperature control and a higher temperature than usual IIRC, plus a TL high-enough to make sanitation over durability a selling point, so stainless steel is not a low-TL commodity. For non-heavy-use applications however, the novelty of low-maintenance rust-resistance might create a niche market for stainless steel in lower-tech cultures, but it will never replace untarnishable gold in ornamental use... gold-electroplated stainless, however, might be marketable as a cheaper (and more useful, for example, as dinnerware) alternative to pure gold.

Again, as an alternative, if your low-TL metalsmiths can produce something like non-stainless, super-durable, extra-lovely Damascus steel, there will be a market for it far and wide -- especially if they protect the secrets of its manufacture.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks Boomslang, a picture is forming now...

 

[ThunderChilde]

Isoc,
Another oddball possibilty at low TL is advanced stone tools. The finest scalpels used for eye surgery are made from obsidian. A minor hand wave and you have a culture, a bit starving for metals who took stone cutting implements to the apex of development, never before achieved as far is known.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It's not just retro-tech that can be used at earlier tech levels, it's processes as well.

Things like standardisation, which came in during the Victorian period, or time and motion studies for manufacturing can apply to any tech level.

These techniques will make earlier tech level manufacturing more efficient, and produce a higher per capita income than in Earth's history.

It's not only manufacturing that benefits, you can up the data rate on an "optical" communication system due to data encryption techniques, do high level mathematics on an abacus, or have more efficient and effective data archiving and storage of information on scrolls using modern library referencing techniques.

You do a catch up on innovation as well, i.e. the paper clip becomes TL1 not TL4, as well as the pen nib.

Water wheels and wind mills won't just produce mechanical energy, they'll produce electricity at the same time.

If you know what to mine you can mine it, coal (if available) will become an energy source at TL0, as would charcoaling. Iron becomes available at TL0, because you can mine it and produce enough heat to make pig iron.

TL0 societies just aren’t going to happen in the Traveller Universe, unless they are isolated from the knowledge, because as soon as you have the knowledge you almost instantly move to TL1.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[BlackBat242]

Ceramics is one of the oldest technologies around, and a bit of scientific knowledge applied there can get far better materials at a surprisingly low TL... because the main thing needed is knowledge of materials and processes, as the equipment is fairly unchanged throughout.


Ceramic weapons (knives, gun barrels, etc), ceramics to replace other materials, specialty glass and other things all can substitute for many high-tech materials once you know how to make them.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gentlemen,

Excellent suggestions all! I glad to see I was finally able to get my point across about knowledge versus technique.

Given the descriptions of the OTU unless the people in question are luddites of some type or interdicted they already know that the full panoply of TL15 technology is possible and knowing is half the battle. All that remains for them to do is to figure out how higher TL ideas can be recreated with lower TL techniques.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Peter Schutze]

There was a great magazine article for SciFi games somewhere about recreating "magic" etc in a fairly low tech society from relatively advanced knowledge of herbalism and basic chemistry etc

A lot of the article was along the lines of how higher tech societies wouldnt even need to know the basics of say chemistry because things are readily available to them in a more final form while the "proper" tech level societies could easily hide / disguise the information from the public eg secret societies. That would make a large part of the battle to disprove the supernaturalness of the created effects become knowing what to actually look for.

There was a recent Mongoose article applying some of the same general ideas to medicine .... by-hand surgery being an uncommon actual ability for someone with a Medical skill gained on say a TL15 world due to the prevalence of autodoc type equipment etc

 

[aramis]

A knowledge of smelting is useless unless you can generate the needed heat. If you don't have wood, you don't generally have charcoal, for example. On the "world ocean" you're not going to ever make TL 1 simply because fire is unobtainable in hot enough grades.
TL1 is use of metal
TL2 is the scientific method.
TL3 is steam and guns. Standards, too.
TL4 is electricity plus the ability to manufacture plastics. Interchangable parts, too.
TL5 is internal combustion and consumer electronics, plus fission weapons
TL6 is computers and fission power plants
TL7 can reach orbit, has consumer computing.
TL8 is system-wide capability, and commercial fusion, plus space life support long term.
TL9 is gravitics and jump drive,

The above is my synopsis from MGT...
Whole thing really needs to be reworked.

So, for TL 2, you need to be able to work metal, and have sufficient fire capabilities for steel. It's quite possible to lack sufficient or suitable plants in order to develop charcoal. At which point, also, metalworking past lead, gold, bronze and copper is probably out.

For TL3, you need materials with low coefficients of expansion, and reliable sources of metal. Again, it's possible to have worlds where metal is scarce enough that it's mostly in chemicals, but TL3 really is bogus based upon Mongoose's definition, unless there is no source of sulfer or saltpeter (which also pretty much precludes having terran compatible biospheres). In fact, gunpowder requires only ceramics and chemistry to make, and fire to be of use. And ceramics require no tools other than fire. Making the carbon requires fire. Wood canon have been shown to be doable (2006)... they require a boring spoon, but that can be bronze.

TL4 is electricity. Which requires TL1 metalworking, TL2 thinking, and a knowledge that it's good for more than just making a zap (TL0). Batteries require a pair of dissimilar contacts; one should be a metal, the other can be a metal or other conductor (eg carbon).. we can do those at TL1. We need vinegar.. TL0. We need ceramics, so we need fire. Magnets occur naturally, so it's possible to have TL1 electricity. Doing something useful is simple: Electroplating is TL1, as is electrosmelting. Hmmm...

The whole list is a problem, because there are many places on earth that can't make a bunch of stuff that they happen to have.

A locomotive, for example, requires the ability to roll out sheet metal, to make wheels turn, and to heat water. 90% of technology is JUST knowledge of process, and the process isn't that tech prerequisite... until you get to consumer goods ala TL4-5.

Firearms were made to standards in 1700... but without the right standards available, most parts were not interchangable, for example. Even though the knowledge was there (the standards were specified), they couldn't be applied accurately enough.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Yes, it's the knowledge that's important.

Things like caverty walls, and guttereing can all be done without the technology all you need is the knowledge. Plumming, damp proofing and water pumps can be done very low technology, because you understand the application of the knowledge.

Sanitation, and sewers don't need technology, they just need the application of the knowledge.

I take your point about lack of materials restricting you, however if you can apply the knowlwdge in a different manner you can overcome. Ceramics don't need fire, they need heat. So if you haven't any wood, but you do have a handy active volcano, you can still make ceramics.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[aramis]

Yes, it's the knowledge that's important.

Things like caverty walls, and guttereing can all be done without the technology all you need is the knowledge. Plumming, damp proofing and water pumps can be done very low technology, because you understand the application of the knowledge.

Sanitation, and sewers don't need technology, they just need the application of the knowledge.

I take your point about lack of materials restricting you, however if you can apply the knowlwdge in a different manner you can overcome. Ceramics don't need fire, they need heat. So if you haven't any wood, but you do have a handy active volcano, you can still make ceramics.

Regards,

Ewan

Except that the areas with volcanoes of useful types (non-pyroclastic) are incompatible with clay deposits, and further, fire is the surest way to have the stable heat in useful and even heating.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Except that the areas with volcanoes of useful types (non-pyroclastic) are incompatible with clay deposits, and further, fire is the surest way to have the stable heat in useful and even heating.

O, I agree completely. I was just saying that there are other ways to do it if you need to.

Application of the knowledge combined with innovation of techniques will get you a long way.

That's the whole point of the thread, to find out what can be done at what TL given what we know at present.

I liked the electroplating at TL1, have you got any more?

 

[aramis]

Let's see. Hydraulic switching can be used to make very slow TTL logic circuits.

We have TL3 historical punch card machines (jacquard looms); nothing in them requires TL3 except the measuring standards, since they are wood and wire, plus some screws and brass gears. The brass gears could be made using jigs at TL 1.

Vending macines are TL 1 (Ancient greece and egypt.) No metal required, tho pins and nails helpful.

multi-pin locks were known in ancient egypt. (tl 1) Their basic design (floating pins) is adapted later with springs; we can have locking doors with keys at TL1.

We know now that all that is needed for vacuum survival is air to the lungs and pressure to the body, especially the chest; a leather pressure suit is doable at TL1, and pressure tanks are TL1 capable, as is low pressure pressurization with large bellows. Be leaky as hell, and badly uncomfortable, but could probably get a decent helmet with a half-cubic meter of air backpack going at TL 1, sealed with resins, and strapped tightly to the shoulders and chest to form a seal, with a chest & belly plate to maintain breathing counterpressure, and lots of leather straps to maintain pressure except at joints; even then, use of fleece can maintain flexibility and pressure without air.

We know that TL 1 bellows could produce 2atm of pressure.

In short, pretty much all TL1-3 stuff can be seen as mostly pure knowledge.

Steel requires higher temps than burning vegetation can provide.

It should be noted that gold can be mined with stone & clay tools; a clay pan works just as well as a tin one. It can be worked by hammering. Some forms of metal ores cn be chemically handled; others can be elctrolytically-collected. If you can electroplate, you can electrolytically collect ores. It's the same process, taken to much longer extremes.

 

[splicer]

How about a photobioreactor? Can be used on normal or vacuum worlds to produce fuel (oil), O2, and proteins from algae, sunlight, and CO2. (1)

<game_voice>
This technology requires a minmum of glassworking and metalworking (and perhaps rubbermaking) abilities, aquacultural and plumbing skills, and a familiarity with pumps or bellows. Plastics or other advanced materials may be helpful, as well as access to simple electronics. To assist the algaculturalist, future modern science has created a plethora of hardy geneered algae strains. These can be matched to star color requirements and they also provide valuable feedback on culture health via changes in algal tint. Strains can be found anywhere from starport bazaars to major retail outlets. Products from the former may be untrustworthy, and products from the latter may expire according to their Licensing Agreement. Reputable seed catalogs and strain-trading groups, such as the Algacultural Society or the Frontiers Fellowship, provide long-lasting cultures.
</game_voice>

Another geneered solution could be some kind of "canary" plants. Smallish, shade-tolerant, drought-resistant houseplants which, by degrees, change color and odor in response to O2 levels (or whatever). A rancid smell for low oxygen, and a sickening-sweet smell for overly high O2. It could puff up and contract in reaction to pressure levels. The only requirement for operation would be an almost-green thumb. Also, it occurs to me that trained animals, geneered or naturally suited, might provide some alarm functions as well. Biotech woulld originate at higher TLs, but could be propagated and employed by low TL technique.

1. Forgot to mention: the oil produced can run things like water tube boilers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-tube_boiler, and oil-burning forges, http://backyardmetalcasting.com/, and the CO2 from burning the oil gets fed back into the system. "Steampunk meets biotech." Or is that "biopunk meets steamtech"?

 

[aramis]

That photobioreactor is a high tech product; it requires microscopes, micropipettes, and a host of other technologies to impliment.

Might be present, but it's import tech if it is, and probably has a specific enzymic insufficiency specifically to for you to feed it suppliments sent from the source.

 

[splicer]

That photobioreactor is a high tech product; it requires microscopes, micropipettes, and a host of other technologies to impliment.

Not necessarily. Currently there are a wide range of techniques being explored in this area from low tech (DIY) to very high tech (infrastructure required). I must admit that even at our current TL we aren't quite there; cost-benefit is poor-to-middlin'. Plus, in my experience, finding reliable info involves separating a minimal signal from a lot of noise.

I think minimally it might only require some transparent tubes or tanks, tubes for a bubbler, tubes for water flow, a thermometer, gauges, and other ways to monitor conditions (culture changes visibly?), and the need to drain off excess growth for processing. Oh, yes, and nutrients.

Might be present, but it's import tech if it is, and probably has a specific enzymic insufficiency specifically to for you to feed it suppliments sent from the source.

I did wonder about that, although I didn't mention it my previous post. I agree that suppliers would try to keep customers dependent upon them.

The way I see it, it could be workable with increasing difficulty and chance for failure as the local TL base drops. Access to off-world sources of fresh cultures, advanced enzymes, monitoring equipment, and trained consultants would be a big help. I still think the plumbing aspects of it could be handled locally above TLn. So, partially import tech + some variables.

And there is some coolness factor in rows of long glass tubes filled with brightly colored and bubbling liquid.

BTW, the possible need for some imports and also the applicability to a wider range of situations is why I posted this here rather than in the specific vacuum world thread over in IISS.

 

[splicer]

Just noticed this.

Steel requires higher temps than burning vegetation can provide.

But not higher temps than burning vegetable oil can provide.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I think minimally it might only require some transparent tubes or tanks, tubes for a bubbler, tubes for water flow, a thermometer, gauges, and other ways to monitor conditions (culture changes visibly?), and the need to drain off excess growth for processing. Oh, yes, and nutrients.

Now nutrients might be the hardest bit to come by in the closed system.

Human waist composting and human remains composting would be nessesary, infact all animal waist and remains would need to be composted, because you wont get the nessesary nutrients form lightning.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[splicer]

...you wont get the nessesary nutrients form lightning.

E.D.

Yep, we're on the same page. I forgot to mention nutrients originally, but Wil reminded me when he mentioned enzyme requirements. And you wisely mentioned composting and waste treatment. Waste treatment is another good use for algaculture. Especially in a vacuum colony, but note that I'm not limiting the application to a single environment. Although (at fusion TLs) the interest in algae as an energy source would wane a little, I think its reasonable to assume it algaculture would find application in certain niches.

So far: light+water+nutrients+CO2+algae --> fuel, O2, protein, waste treatment.

I guess the broader technology is algaculture, and not a specific application like a photobioreactor. That makes the broader question "At what TL is successful algaculture possible with 57th century knowledge, and what level of off-word support moderates that?"

 

[splicer]

Waste treatment is another good use for algaculture. Especially in a vacuum colony, but note that I'm not limiting the application to a single environment. Although (at fusion TLs) the interest in algae as an energy source would wane, I think its reasonable to assume algaculture would find application in certain niches.

So far: light+water+nutrients+CO2+algae --> fuel, O2, protein, waste treatment.

I guess the broader technology is algaculture, and not a specific application like a photobioreactor. That makes the broader question "At what technique level is successful algaculture possible with 57th century knowledge, and what level of off-world support moderates that?"

 

[ThunderChilde]

About those water worlds, once dried, seaweed will burn, and produce some useful chemical byproducts when it does.

It was gathered and burned for use as charcoal in Scotland in times past. It can be used to make alkhaline ash, used for glass, soap and iodine. It can also be used to make a lye solution, usefull for many things. It can be used as a preservitive. Composted, it makes a fine fertilizer, and can be used fresh when sowing in the spring. There are a few dies that can be made from seaweed. Etc. etc.etc....

A water world may well develop something like a floating tree, or even a floating forrest. Picture a floating mangrove forrest, it's not that hard to imagine.