Retro-Tech: Uncommon solutions to problems on 11,000 worlds

[Whipsnade]

I would disagree with some of the points, but as it is a peeve I wont press my luck.

Lycanorukke,

Please believe me when I say you have no luck to press. I'm an engineer, machinist, tinkerer, nascent blacksmith, and have read widely on the subject of the history of technology since my early teens. The aeolipile is a toy that cannot produce work meaningful in an industrial sense.

I have to shoot down starry eyes claims regarding the device at least quarterly both here and at an alternate history board I frequent. I lay the blame for this at the feet of our post-industrial society. Just as how in an industrial society people grew more intellectually distant from how their food was raised and processed, in our post-industrial society people have grown intellectually distant from how their goods are manfactured and transported. Work in Western societies more and more equates sitting in front of a display screen and tapping on a keyboard while the cultural knowledge of how things physically work recedes in the distance.

By way of an example, it took me several posts to explain to intelligent people at another forum why an Edison-type phonograph would require screws with a constant thread pitch.

On to your suggestions...

A "homemade" rad sensor of the type you described is exactly the type of device I was hoping this thread would produce. A low-tech capable people dealing with visitors from high-tech capable societies would have a great need for such devices.

Creating the foil needed is very easy, we've been producing exquisitely thin gold leaf for as long as we've been working with gold. Glass is another material that people can easily make once the knowledge is developed. And, as your suggestions regarding pumps illustrates, low-tech capable people can build vacuum pumps again once the knowledge is there. Put all that together and they'll have all the rad sensors they need.

Your suggestion regrading "fridges", thanks to our knowledge of thermodynamics we've been able to "retro-tech" a TL0 "fridge" consisting of two clay pots, sand passed through a sieve, and water. This device is used in the field to keep vaccines cool during mass innoculation projects in sub-Saharan Africa and other locations.


Regards,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Not sure it's quite what you're after, and light on details as I can't find the article nor recall much about it, but I suspect you'll know of what I'm thinking...

Taking a scene from StarWars, the desert home of Luke and all those (apparently) high tech Vaporators for moisture farming, and applying it to Traveller's many desert worlds, it seems there might be a need for some kind of moisture collection.

On the low tech scale (and finally to the article I hinted at) I seem to recall a new more efficient technique of collecting dew using a fine silk netting, or spider silk, or some such. The details are foggy It was a very new idea and istr using a new technology, but easily adaptable to low tech the way it looked.

On the flip side, maybe some of the desalinization techniques could be retro applied to low tech water worlds for the same drinking water requirements? I know some are definitely high tech and energy intensive but I think I've seen some new approaches suggested for simpler ones to use in less developed areas and for the military.

 

[Blue Ghost]

BG,

And it's also precisely what I didn't want this thread to discuss.

The meaning of tech level in the official setting as opposed to the meaning of tech level in the rules is something that has been discussed in Traveller circles for thirty years. I've already mentioned the consensus solution, tech level in the setting is a measure of poverty, and I don't want to discuss the topic any further because it off-topic for this thread.

Tech level threads ramble on for hundreds of posts over weeks as everyone repeats the same things we've all heard thousands of times before. I don't want that. I want to discuss what sort of things people with low-tech capabilities can do with high-tech knowledge.

While they'll know about the germ theory of disease, they won't be able to make TL9+ tailored vaccines. While they know about radio, they won't be building Wi-Fi networks. While they know about genetics, they won't be geneering. While they know about thermodynamics, they won't be building gas turbines.

*snip*

Let's mull over how a TL4 world applies TL15 knowledge to everyday living and stop talking about why a TL4 world can exist in a TL15 empire. We've already figured the latter out, let's start exploring the former.


Regards,
Bill

Point taken. I'll harken back to my Ahmish/Meninite (sp?) example. When I visit the family in PA and exit the airport terminal, there's always at least a couple of teenage Meninites in full black garb (wide brim hat, black tassel tie and all) speeding around the passenger loading zone. They're a bit different from the Ahmish who use no electrified technology whatsoever (whatever tech level that may be).

I think ultimately this is creative license for both adventure authors and the GMs who administer them. I can't remember where, I but I think I came across a "stone age" tech level vacuum world in one of the supplements. I pondered that for a long while, but came to the conclusion that said civilization lived underground, maybe used some form of organic air recyleing system (plants that thrived off of regolith and CO2 emissions), drew their water from underground channels, had access to high tech, but shunned it for whatever reason.

OR, said civilization was indeed stone aged, but had somehow managed to weather a global catastrophe and where permanently sealed underground. They were contacted by the Imperium, still dressed in their version on loin cloths, used spears, et al, but turned in their pottery and other trinkets for a 57th century iPod at the local starport. That kind of thing.

 

[aramis]

Aramis, that's wild. Anytime I get a low tech world, I ask myself, is this by accident, or on purpose? It may have started for me with the old Star Trek episode "This Side of Paradise", with a colony that wanted to get back to nature and reject technology. Also, when I was growing up (60s-70s), a lot of people were trying to "get back to the land".

I had to google "old believers". Are these the Russian Orthodox group?

Reminds me of the Amish, too.

Yes, Russian Orthodox Old Believers. Many sects, some less orthodox than others. Note that Old Believers, by definition, are not part of the Muscovite nor OCA Russian Orthodox; they are the result of a schism during the reign of Patriarch Nikon. The priestless groups are more likely to be anachronistic and luddite.

 

[Ishmael]

hydraulic based logic gates possible?
A water-computer the size of a building with water channeled at the top and flowing downwards to the base. Perhaps operating in concert with a water-wheel powered babbage engine?

Acoustics
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.858,y.0,no.,content.true,page.1,css.print/issue.aspx
I wonder if there could be a use for huge Helmholtz resonators the size of buildings powered by wind....

 

[BlackBat242]

But, but, but... what about that illustration in GT:Sword Worlds showing an Athenian (= Participating) Democracy complete with people in ancient Greek outfits gathering around a fire among classicalesque ruins with pillars and stuff?



Hans

Traveller equivilent of the SCA.
http://www.sca.org/

They are a "historical re-creation group gone too far"... they have built a whole world in which to "recreate" ancient Greece (minus the bad bits).

 

[Blue Ghost]

Are you an SCA member? Do you know where I can score some steel chainmail armor?

Sorry for the off-topic post.

 

[aramis]

Look up a fellow by the name of Chris Cushman in Anchorage, AK, or Steve Beldon in greater Kenai Peninsula Borough, Alaska. Neither of them are mailers, but they have apprentices who do.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Very cool. Thanks.

 

[Icosahedron]

At the risk of irritating your peeve, Bill, yes, the device is a toy, but if the usefulness of steam power had been recognised, it could have been improved and adapted quickly enough. The main problem was that it was regarded as a toy.

Can you link to any retro-tech sites that might spur our imagination? It's a fascinating subject.

Maybe parabolic solar reflectors for cooking/heating, solar home heating, etc.

They would probably import goods like RTGs, solar calculators/computers, air-ambulances, etc.

 

[BlackBat242]

Are you an SCA member? Do you know where I can score some steel chainmail armor?

Sorry for the off-topic post.

I had been, for much of the '90s, but have let my membership & participation lapse for over 10 years now.

And I still have a half-finished set of brigandine that won't fit me now...


All my armor contacts are from back then, so many will have moved and some will no longer be active.


anachronistically yours, Creag Domhnullach Eileanach, formerly of the Shire of Gryphon's Lair, Kingdom of Artemisia.

 

[Poor Merchant]

How about pneumatic despatch terminal instead of the phone - these were actually built in London in the 19th Century (TL5 in GURPS terms) - and are still used today in British supermarkets to move cash from the tills.

http://www.eaglepneumatic.com/pneumaticdispatch.htm

Or how about overshot waterwheels? Hugely more efficient than undershot wheels but with essentially the same tech.

But you could achieve huge strides for instance, simply by teaching modern knowledge to a TL3 doctor. Imagine just how much more an impact he could make once he had learnt about the circulatory system, microbial infection and so on - but without necessarily having a TL10 Medkit?

I think the interesting impact would be not just on the tech itself but social impact of these developments - if you have a semaphore communication system then you can govern a wider area - which means more extensive polities.

I think these low tech planets can be a fun place to play - if only to demonstrate that low tech does not mean low intelligence on the part of the population.

 

[leo knight]

Regarding the ingenuity of "primitives", I found this story amusing:

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/othroads/shavfoib/lowcrusade.html

Enjoy!

 

[Blue Ghost]

No more comments?

 

[Lycanorukke]

No more comments?

I considered a few but didn't want to stir up Whipsnade again by mistake.
But if it's too quiet a may throw a few more up and hope for the best...

A water drop microscope - check out your water supply for nasties or examination of crop blight, etc. If they have glass makers but not lens grinders, a small sphere of glass can act as a x100 lens if done right (Leeuwenhoek's microscope) but is hard on the eyes.

Medical stuff - Stethoscopes can be built out of some tubing and a cup (to act as the resonance chamber). Sphygmomanometers (blood pressure meters) are just tubing, a bladder and a liquid column. An emergency respirator could be made out of a bladder and a leather face mask. Add nitroglycerine pills and heart attacks may become survivable. Syringes are a little more tricky - the body and plunger are easy, but the needle requires more care. Prehaps a spine of a local animal could be used. Another I heard about (probably apocraphyl) is that the Ancient Egyptians used beetle mandibles as surgical sutures. Hold the tissue togther and clip it with a beetle mandible (or more likely shove the mandible through the 'join' and the serrated edges hold it shut). Again maybe a local bug can be used to clip wounds shut if they dont have anything other than 'horse hair thread'.

Tree Cannon - PC's beating up you local primitives who dont have metal tech for guns? As seen on mythbusters, a tree cannon can be remarkably functional. Once one knows how to and has the materials to make gunpowder the next part of 'fire it from a tube at the enemy' is trivial. It could be interesting if the PC's ship plops down at the 'starport' and finds tree cannons pointing at it just outside the xtra zone.

Greenhouses - I am unsure what level tech simple glass sheeting would be, but small amounts and the colony could make a green house to enhance food production. Would be useful on arid worlds where water is limited and too precious to waste with convention 'stick it in the ground' methods.

Cosmic ray detector (cloud chamber)- I vagely remember this one from school. Have a jar saturated with alcohol vapour - with dry ice down the bottom to create a 'cool zone' and a sponge soaked with alcohol up the top. Wrap the entire thing in black paper with two holes in it - one to look in and one to shine light in. As charged cosmic rays move through the vapour cloud they ionize a trail, causing the droplets to condense and looking in the hole can reveal some nice trail patterns. May be of use if planet Podunk has an energetic star.

Bicycles - these can be built out of anything. Bamboo, metal, wood, etc. Wooden wheels could be lined with leather instead of rubber. The pedals would have to connect direct to the wheels (no chains or gearing). Instead of fast runners to relay messages, you have a bicycle brigade.

It is suprising hard to think how to retro-tech things without just having a goofy 'steam-punk' version of current tech. But I'll get back in my hole and wait to see if any of these are what was wanted before sticking my head up again.

On Edit: Glancing back and reviewing the entire thread - I suspect many of these may fall into "the not what I was after catagory". Sorry.

 

[G. Fieendish]

hydraulic based logic gates possible?
A water-computer the size of a building with water channeled at the top and flowing downwards to the base. Perhaps operating in concert with a water-wheel powered babbage engine?

Acoustics
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.858,y.0,no.,content.true,page.1,css.print/issue.aspx
I wonder if there could be a use for huge Helmholtz resonators the size of buildings powered by wind....

Re: Fluidics
Yes, this is indeed possible, & in the first edition of the BBC Tomorrow's World annual (published in 1970), they described how such a fluidic logic gate would work, using various combinations of air & water, to perform logic functions...
Also they mentioned, that a company was producing such kits at the time, for educational purposes...

 

[Max]

Hmm, I wasn't thinking in terms of what tech 8 knowledge backwards would do but what tech 13-15 knowledge would be retro-techable. I suspect CG is this sort of retro-tech, once the secret of gravity was discovered around tech 13 or higher, it became possible to build CG on primitive tech 9 worlds. The difficulty is trying to figure out what will be known in the future and how it can be used today.

Tailored industrial bacteria may be a good idea for retro-tech. It takes a fairly high tech level to discover how certain metabolic processes occur. But once you figure out how to get bugs to do what you want then it would be possible to create the bacteria using the primitive gene splicing tools which start to become available at tech 6-7.

 

[Icosahedron]

I've just had a query arise in my PBEM. The group happens to be on a TL2 world right now.

Could a TL2 world, with technical know-how, produce stainless steel - ie top quality blades? I'm thinking if they could, their expertise could rank them amongst the best blade-makers in the sector, providing a useful export, but if not...

 

[boomslang]

Could a TL2 world, with technical know-how, produce stainless steel - ie top quality blades? I'm thinking if they could, their expertise could rank them amongst the best blade-makers in the sector, providing a useful export, but if not...

Stainless steel is not necessarily the "best" type of steel -- it is basically carbon-steel with some chromium added in to make the alloy rust-resistant. The chromium, however, increases the alloy's ductility and brittleness, making stainless steel less-well-suited for uses that require maximum toughness, such as weaponry and tools.

Manufacturing quality steel is a fairly high-tech process at any TL -- you will notice we went through an Iron Age and a Bronze Age first -- and generally requires precise temperature measurement and control for best results. OTOH, steel has been being made for millennia right here on present-day Terra.

With the right naturally-occurring ores, a reasonably-sophisticated knowledge of metallurgy, well-designed forges, and a few very-carefully-guarded trade secrets, it is not unfeasible that a TL2 society could produce rare, high-trade-value output such as Damascus steel or those folded-umpteen-times feudal Japanese blades -- but such products would need regular oiling by their new offworld owners (WD-40 works great, BTW)...

Do not overlook the culinary market; sword-and-axe-swinging barbarians are not the only people who appreciate a good blade -- top chefs are super-fussy and quite particular about their cutlery, too.

Even barbers and hairdressers will spend a fortune on good work-related cutting tools...

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for that, Boomslang. So a TL2 world could be a renowned source of blades. I think maybe the chefs, hairdressers and surgeons might want their steel stainless, though.
Does use of chromium require high TL, or did it just remain undiscovered? I'm just wondering why stainless steel has only been used recently.