Rethinking skills

[JAFARR]

Some skills may benefit from a little redefining. For instance, engineering - in RL we would think of this as a skill developed through education and assoicated with the desigining or building something and/ or the equipment needed to build something else. For Traveller purposes it is used more as the ability to operate and mantain equipment. Most notably the drives and power plants. So why not say that engineering is a combination of mechanical and electronics skills and that your skill in either of the two is the higher of that specific skill or engineering -1.

Someone with robot ops and gunnery may call that fire control and direct robot gunners so that 1 person actually has control of multiple batteries manned by robots. How manny batteries? Maybe 2 per level of fire control to a max of 10 batteries/ robots.

Under this system, whenever a character gains level 1 of the second required skill, all future skill advances would advance the combined skill, not the base skill. For example: Joe has mechanical 3 and gains electronics 1. He defaults to engineering 1 and futher advances in mechanical or electronics become engineering skill advance instead.

Is this logical? Why or why not?

 

[Spinward Scout]

You're talking specializations, which I always thought was a great idea...

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Some skills may benefit from a little redefining. For instance, engineering - in RL we would think of this as a skill developed through education and assoicated with the desigining or building something and/ or the equipment needed to build something else. For Traveller purposes it is used more as the ability to operate and mantain equipment. Most notably the drives and power plants. So why not say that engineering is a combination of mechanical and electronics skills and that your skill in either of the two is the higher of that specific skill or engineering -1.

I always took Engineering to be related to Mech and Elec, but specifically dealing with nuclear engineering, since most starship plants are nuclear. So although an expert Engineer would probably have a pretty good knowledge of both electronic and mechanical techniques and control systems, even the best mechanics and PCB wizards would have little knowledge of nuclear plants (except perhaps in the case of fusion-powered vehicles - which are denied to civilians IMTU).

Under this system, whenever a character gains level 1 of the second required skill, all future skill advances would advance the combined skill, not the base skill. For example: Joe has mechanical 3 and gains electronics 1. He defaults to engineering 1 and futher advances in mechanical or electronics become engineering skill advance instead.

Is this logical? Why or why not?

Only if Engineering 1 gives the same DMs as Mech 3. I think you may be opening a can of worms here.

Why not just say that any level of Engineering confers level 0.5 (CT) Mech and Elec, and that on reaching Eng 3, this rises to Mech 1 and Elec 1?
Perhaps level 3 in Mech (probably not elec, though this would instead be linked to Computer skill) confers level 0.5 in Engineering.

 

[aramis]

I've always assumed it to be op and repair. Upon recent actual reading of the CT rules, I discovered that CT and MT Engineering is Ops and trouble shooting, but not repair.

 

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by Icosahedron:
...
Only if Engineering 1 gives the same DMs as Mech 3. I think you may be opening a can of worms here.

Why not just say that any level of Engineering confers level 0.5 (CT) Mech and Elec, and that on reaching Eng 3, this rises to Mech 1 and Elec 1?
Perhaps level 3 in Mech (probably not elec, though this would instead be linked to Computer skill) confers level 0.5 in Engineering. [/QB]

Sorry I was a little pinched for time. I intended to say that mechanical remained at 3 and to use which ever skill was most advantageous. When you get the second skill required to convert to the specalized skill, you then begin to build on the specialized skill instead of the component skill.

Got to go to work. I'll think over how to state this a little more clearly.

 

[Plankowner]

Well as an engineer who works around Mechanics and Electronics types, I can see a pretty clear difference. TV is WRONG when they show engineers grabbing wrenches and digging into the bowls of the generator to fix the Flux Capacitor. Sure, there are engineers that can do that, but let me tell you the LAST person you want working on an aircraft engine is an aircraft Aerospace Engineer (ME)!

Traveller also seems to describe Engineering differently than we would think of today.

Engineering - related to the JUMP drive, M-Drive and PP of a starship (or other vehicle).

Mechanical/Electronics/Gravitics - relates to all the other systems/components etc that exist in the world.

Need to fix the Fusion Power Unit on the G-Carrier? Call an Engineer

Need to fix the air conditioning system on that same G-Carrier? Call a Mechanic

Need to fix the burned out light plate in the control panel on that same G-Carrier? Call an Electrician (electronics).

Need to fix the Stability Modulator in the forward Left-Hand Gravity Plate? Call the Gravitic tech.

As an engineer, I also have some mechanical and electronics skills, but I am not the right guy to change the oil filter on the engine. I can DESIGN an new filter and figure out why the filter isn't working correctly, but not so good at the actual wrench turning.

Fabricating a new drive shaft from raw materials is a mechanical skill, not an engineering skill. Figuring out how to integrate the drive shaft from a 56 Corvette into your Free Trader is an Engineering skill.

My views anyway..

 

[Klaus]

There has been a very long, rigourous and in depth discussion about Engineering over on the T5 playtest boards in the Moot (hi Aramis

)

I think the resulting consensus(?) was that you use Mech, Elec, and Gravitics to repair/modify stuff, but Engineering may play some role in diagnosis and problem solving (as in how to go about it and what to tinker with). Generally Eng is required to operate your engines without them conking out. I'd see Eng perhaps being the equivalent of skill level 0 in Mech, Elec, and Grav, as in there's some knowledge crossover.

 

[Uncle Bob]

"Engineering" in the Traveller sense is not Engineering in the sense of a designer of equipment.

It is used in thee same sense today's Merchant Marine use it, that is, as an operator/maintainer of big engines, specifically the motive drives of a starship.

The individual repairs are likely to be electrical or mechanical in nature, but without Engineering skill you will not know how, or why, the subsystems relate. I allow Elec or Mech 2+ to assist as Eng 1, as long as there is an Eng 2+ to supervise them.

Likewise, an engineer ghas to know the electromechanical systems that make up the engines, so I allow Eng 1-2 to roll as Elec 0 or Mech 0. Eng 3+ is considered to include Elec 1 snd Mech 1

 

[robject]

Right. "Engineer" is Scotty.

 

[aramis]

No, Scotty all too often repairs.

Scotty is Eng 5, Mec 5, Elect 5, Carousing 3....

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Aramis:
No, Scotty all too often repairs.

Scotty is Eng 5, Mec 5, Elect 5, Carousing 3....

Well, if you say so... it always seemed like he was using high-tech spit and baling wire to me.

"Ach, the toilets ha' backed oop inna' the warp draive, Captain... she's tearin' herself ta pieces... we cenna hold on much longer..."

 

[JAFARR]

A lot of good discussion on engineering. What other skills would have or be of a similar nature in that they include or make up other skills?

 

[archhealer]

I allow players to specialize, doing it the the way demonstrated in the following example. I use T20, but the basic principle should be applicable.

So, a character has 8 ranks in Drive. I would allow him to take ranks in Drive/Wheeled/# as well, and have that second skill rank add to his drive skill when driving wheeled vehicles with the appropriate number of wheels (Cars usually have 4 wheels, motorcycles have 2, etc.). Now,in T20, that normally wouldn' tbe an advantage, except that I allow them to take the points at a rate of 1 skill point for TWO ranks. The limit is that the specialized skill may not be more than one half the basic score. So, in this example, a character could have Drive/8, and specialize in Wheeled(2)/4. To take another two ranks in Drive/Wheeled(2), he would first have to raise his Drive skill enough to allow room for those two points, in this case, by four, however, in the meantime, his drive skill is 8, or 12 with two wheeled vehicles.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
A lot of good discussion on engineering. What other skills would have or be of a similar nature in that they include or make up other skills?

Just a few from my collection:
Pilot includes basic Ships Boat.
Battledress includes basic Vacc Suit.
Any Ground Vehicle skill includes a basic proficiency in all others, ditto Water Craft.
There are links between different types of field artillery in terms of ranging, sheaf firing, etc.
and there are links between different types of personal firearms.

 

[Golan2072]

Medical probably includes Chemistry and Biology to a degree (two science-cluster skills that I've added to my CharGen system, see my sig); it also should include atleast Admin-0 (the medical profession tends to be very bureaucratic) and, in TL8+ (TL7+?), Computer and in TL9+ Robot Ops. Most of those will be Skill-0's; but Medical should function as Chemistry and Biology at one level less.

Also, the cannonical Liaison skill functions as both Admin and Carousing at one level lower.

 

[aramis]

Just to give a counter view:

Engineers don't repair using engineering... Engineering lets them diagnose. They still need mechanical or electronic to to the repairs.

0 overlap.

Meicine vs Biology and Chem: No overlap. Why? Because the medical skill is essentially trauma aid. A pharmacist would have biology and chem.

Most sciences would provide Level 0 only for most other sciences.

 

[mike wightman]

In their article Starshp Malfunctions - JTAS 15 - LKW and MWM had Engineering skill used to repair the jump drive, maneuver drive, and the power plant, all at +2 per level of Engineering skill.

Computer malfunctions use computer and electronic skill, at +1 per level of skill, while Mechanical is used to fix life support, fuel tanks, fuel scoops, and turrets. Weapons are fixed using Electronic and Mechanical skills, again at +1 per skill level.

Jack-o-T gives +1 DM per level for any problem.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Icosahedron :

Vac Suit skill also allows the use of Combat Armor (non powered armor) which with PLSS doubles as a (hard)Vac Suit.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I have to see Aramis' counterpoint here. T20's
T/Engineering Or CT/MT engineering is still diagnosing the problem(s). Mechanical, Electronic, Gravitics, Ship's weapons, Ships Screens,etc are the specifics for those problems.

Case in relevance, say the T20 "Hacker feat"--it takes both T/Computer, T/communication skill, and possibly T/electronic Skills (if hard wiring or 'Splicing into'into a data system).

Now in the case of T/Engineering, I see that as basic machine functions, the additional skills (Particular parts of the vessels systems, gravitics, weapons, electronics, plumbing or drive parts-mechanical, e.g.) as specialties--we have onboard our wet Navy vessels these days electricians, mechanics, plumbers, etc..as well as nuclear engineers (for the "Nuclear wessels" )diesel engine engineers, etc.

Making T/Engineering the catch-all when you have these other skills seems a waste to me. Why not instead use T/ Engineering + the specific part in making the repair roll?

We had a player in our campaign ask (due to his High Stellar homeworld skills he'd earned) Why do I need a Skill 0 in Gravitics? He understood by the TL of Home, he had Vessel/Grav, and Pilot skill from it. The GM explained it was like in our own times, knowing basics about an automobile--a person in that Tech era would know the basics of Gravitic technology of the vehicle he/she ;learned to drive/fly when he/she came of age.

Also, it meant he could lend assitance to the player's Ship's engineer when repairs to the Gravitic systems needed handling..it didn't make his PC an expert, but he wasn't a warm body holding the gravitic module adjustment tool either! Knowing how it works is half the battle/ knowing how to fix it is the other half.

The PC engineer uses all of their T/Engineering to determine what the problem is/ what can be done to fix it/ how long it will take/ what parts or tools must be had for it to be done.

With that above logic we next use the 1/2 of Player's T/Engineering Skill + the subsystem skill when making the repair. Additional crew with skills in same subsytem can be added for s synergistic affect (making good roleplaying out of all this skill number crunchiness too btw..)

Good topic.

 

[Golan2072]

My view:

Engineering: Operating, diagnosing and repairing (assuming you have the nescery parts) ship drives/jumpdrives/powerplants; also operating, diagnosing and repairing similar equipment (e.g. fission/fusion reactors, space-station's stationkeeping thrusters).

Gravitics: Diagnosing and repairing grav-plates and grav-generators (assuming you have the nescery parts); applies to any gravitic equipment, be it an Air/Raft, gravitic robot, a ship's internal gravity plates, or a ship's intra-atmospheric gravitic systems (not the interplanetary fusion drive). If in YTU ships use gravitics for all M-Drive operations (as in MT), then Gravitics can also work for the M-Drive, but not for the P-Plant and J-Drive.

Electronics: Diagnosis, repair and modifications/tampering for electronic and electric devices or parts (including computer hardware); also the fabrication of electronic and electric parts in a workshop.

Mechanical: Diagnosis, repair and modifications/tampering for mechanical devices and non-gravitic vehicles (except for their electronic parts) ; also the fabrication of machine parts parts in a workshop, and assorted metalwork and repairs (welding hull breaches, fixing stock landing gear etc).

Computer: The use and creation of computer software; the operation of computer systems; software diagnosis and troubleshooting; datasearches; hacking.

Communications: The use and diagnosis of communication devices; electronic-warfare techniques. Repairs are done with the Electronics skill.

So, while fixing a malfunctioning M-Drive is an Engineering task, fabricating the parts for it (if no spare parts are available) would require Electronics and Mechanical.