Reliance on Absolutes

[ronnyquest]

Does anyone else think that perhaps we, as a group, tend to rely too heavily on absolutes at the expense of a little imagination?

For instance, among the first questions asked of me in the last forum-based campaigns I have run:

Where are the starcharts?
What kind of ship do we have?
Where are the ship deck plans?

Players are assuming that these will be provided, as if the game cannot be played without them. what happened to "use your imagination?"

 

[parmasson]

The problem is that were are not sitting across the table from each other.
From what I understand GRIP and many of the other on-line systems have made graphics and such easier to distribute. Even among the old guard I think that there is a rising spiral of expectations when it comes to information. If you are going to make it up as you go along I would give your players a little “standards and assumptions” section or an IMTU statement to let them know how things work.

But yeah, Traveller takes more prep time than it did in the old days, so does DnD and everything else.

 

[mike wightman]

Back in the mists of time, when I ran my Dumarest inspired game - using Space Opera rules - I very rarely bothered with maps of anything.
Most of the scene setting was done by analogy with the real world,
e.g. you awaken from cold sleep to be violently ushered by guards into the central courtyard of a gulag like prison camp. Snow is falling all around you as you stand shivering in the cold, trying to remember the train of events that brought you from seeking passage in the starport hostel to standing here in the freezing cold.

Details were added as they were needed - how many huts, how many guard towers etc.

There was no starchart, I just moved them from world to world. They travelled as either honoured guests with the run of the ship, fee paying passengers, cargo (in cold berth), or worked their passage.
Characters would die off along the way and new ones introduced, but the group kept moving, searching for fame and riches.

Ships were described only for the parts they had access to, we only had a full set of deck plans once, and that was to play out a hijacking.

When I ran T2300, ship deck plans were never an issue. Ships got them from A to B, with descriptions based on 2001 and 2010.

Ship combat never happened because the players didn't want to take the risk of random, unavoidable, death.
They happily sent out minions in star fighters though

 

[Spinward Scout]

Reliance on Absolutes?!?

Absolutely not!

Er...

Aw, Dang!

Me and the folks I game with grew up with AD&D and Basic D&D so we have honed our imaginations and are really just happy with a battle mat to draw a few scribbles on. Either that or we're just too poor.

Dameon

 

[ronnyquest]

This is my point, exactly. Imagination is the key and it seems that players (and GMs) use theirs less and less of late.

 

[parmasson]

While I see where you guys are coming from I don’t entirely agree.

Television is not just radio + picture it is an entirely different type of media.

Online gaming is nothing like a face to face session with a bunch of guys you interact with in person.

Anyway maps and charts add richness to the universe that you can take away and study. It turns it from an ephemeral art to something more concrete. I don’t know about you put I make very detailed maps when I can and it really helps communicate the environment quickly without too much guess work.

Creativity and imagination take many different forms. Look at the art thread. Ships, space stations, and planets oh my! While I am a staunch and sometime irrational defender of the LBBs (long live the Books!) but I like to flesh out the universe a bit more these days. The players love them and they help me keep my story straight.

Heck we can go for weeks with out gaming and then have six to eight hours free to play so I gotta be ready to go.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

If you don't have starcharts, how can you decide where to go next, and how do you know how long it will take?

You could "use your imagination" but you have to keep notes - players notice if one week two systems are one jump apart, and next week they're two - so it's simpler to produce the charts first.

 

[mike wightman]

You either stay where you are, go back to the world last visited, or move on to the next world the referee wants you to visit - it works like that for TV Sci-fi

In the Space Opera game I mentioned, the players only rarely got the choice of more than one destination system.

Movement from system to system was usually conducted as downtime, unless there was to be a major event onboard the ship.

How often do people play out the week spent in jump space?

 

[Tobias]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

Oh, wait...

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"You either stay where you are, go back to the world last visited, or move on to the next world the referee wants you to visit"

Yeah, but then you're placing artificial limits on what the PCs can do. You can only get away with this for a party with no money and no ship.

For the OTU the info already exists, and for an ATU you have to create it anyway, so you're not saving yourself any work by hiding it from the players.

IME the more information the players have, the more "real" the game feels, and quite often small details will inspire them in unexpected ways.

 

[ronnyquest]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
If you don't have starcharts, how can you decide where to go next, and how do you know how long it will take?

As the referee, you will know all there is to know, of course. As the referee, it is one's duty to provide a plot line that actually goes somewhere. Players should never have to sit back and look at a star chart to know what they want to do next.

You could "use your imagination" but you have to keep notes - players notice if one week two systems are one jump apart, and next week they're two - so it's simpler to produce the charts first.

Of course you want to be consistent. As the referee, that's another part of your job: maintaining consistency in the campaign, even if it's only really a series of one-session scenarios strung together.

My original point, which appears to have been missed by some, is that players do not need star charts, deck plans, nor world statistics to play the game. The referee has access to any and all materials needed to run his campaign, but players should not expect everything to be available right up front. The referee should be able to paint a picture sufficient to allow players to form a mental construct of the universe.

Library data is no longer useful as a roleplaying device because everyone has read it all. Library data was intended to be used as background and hooks for adventures, but there is no longer any surprise there.

When we provide up front everything there is to know about our campaigns, we lose a great deal.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"As the referee, it is one's duty to provide a plot line that actually goes somewhere."

Players like to have free will. Some of the most fun games I've run are ones where the party has gone off on a tangent to the plot.

"Players should never have to sit back and look at a star chart to know what they want to do next."

Often there is more than one way to get to the destination. Do they take the shortest but most dangerous route, or the one where they can sell that cargo for the best price, or go via that hi-tech world and go shopping, or how about the one with that great bar...?

"players do not need star charts, deck plans, nor world statistics to play the game."

Sometimes they do, but even when they don't they almost always *want* it. If the *characters* have access to the info, why hide it from the players?

"When we provide up front everything there is to know about our campaigns, we lose a great deal."

Only if it's info the characters don't know.

 

[mike wightman]

A five term veteran of Traveller character generation is going to know an awful lot about the local area.

Once he starts playing the game than the secrets beneath the surface may start to emerge - noble intrigue, megacorporation profiteering, inter-planetary rivalry etc.

 

[aramis]

When I ran my PBEM, not having to describe HMS Persephone in prose more than made up for the expense of a PDF-Print driver at the time.

I almost never run a Traveller game without ship maps. Most are simple, and few include furniture. But having that idea of what is where is important to visualization. Visualization is important to roleplay.

My slowly gelling concept for a SFRPG of my own design includes a space of ship building being immediately plotted to a ship's map. A space being some 325 cumets of space, roughly 23-24Td...

 

[parmasson]

Charts and maps are critical if you have new players. The old guard knows the stuff inside and out, new players need some help.

 

[Maladominus]

I admit, my "art" talent sucks! But my imagination.... hehehehe.

 

[Maladominus]

I challenge all you Traveller artists to do a better and more "realistic" Absolut Traveller image.

I only spent about 2 minutes creating this one.

Just make sure you use the Absolut font... which can be found all over the internet. I think it's the Futura Extra Bold Condensed.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Ron, I initially thought (as did others) that you were talking about the referees not needing the info. If you are simply talking about the players not needing to know everything, well duh. But, you have to remember that some referees aren't great at relating their ideas into verbal interplay. These folks may need a graphic crutch to show to their group. There is also the element of forgetting to relate a clue in your description - and, it's always obvious to a player when the referee says, "Oh yeah, I forgot to mention ..." that you are providing a clue.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Ron, I initially thought (as did others) that you were talking about the referees not needing the info. If you are simply talking about the players not needing to know everything, well duh. But, you have to remember that some referees aren't great at relating their ideas into verbal interplay.

And even if the referee is great at verbal communication.... umm, we all have to understand that SOME players are not perfect at interpreting verbal/textual communication online. I know that I have 2 players who are not native English speakers. One of them is a native Japanese speaker from Japan. She is playing Traveller with our online group. And so images help. Charts help. JPEG maps help. Deck plans help. Sound files help. Good communication is not just text. It is a multimedia of things. An imaginative referee knows how to use all of them effectively.

 

[Golan2072]

Maladominus - LOL!!!