GypsyComet
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She's an Aella, actually, and described as a "distant relative". Page 18.
Regina World Map in Imperial Lines #6
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She's an Aella, actually, and described as a "distant relative". Page 18.
Until there is some T5 Publication similar to the OLD CT:Library Data Articles or similar (perhaps in ImperialLines #7 - **hint to ImperialLines authors/publishers**) that details the Noble structure in light of the T5 Ruleset, it is hard to be certain. I have been operating under the assumption (based on the way Nobles are presented in the BBB) that the Noble Land Grants as described are the norm for the Third Imperium under T5 rules (or at least for a future Galaxiad-era Imperium, at any rate).
A fair assumption, given the 3I is the default setting.
A reasonable opinion. Given that evin in CT the LBB's referred to the 3I and the other states were fleshed out, including vessels and character generation, in separate modules, which should the rules in T5 be much different from CT in this regard?
For the differences between the Consulate, the Confederation and the Imperium, would the explanations/rules be lengthy? Probably not. Just an IL7 or 8 article on Rank and Nobles in Know Space could do the job.
Other way around, is my impression. The people who wrote up the Imperium setting assumed that the generic rules applied without modifications whether they fit or not. Like the naval rank table with ten ranks, suitable for a navy the size of the USN, but too many for a small nation like Denmark (or the planetary navy of a world with pop level 6) and too few for an organization 300 times bigger like the IN.
Because a fourth or fifth (or whatever number we're up to nowadays) generation roleplaying game might be improved over a first generation rpg (even one as brilliant as Traveller)?
I was going to say something about pretension to genericity, but I don't actually know if T5 pretends to genericity. MgT does, though.
But for "how to design a nobility for the nations in your own setting" some customization tips in the base rules would have been nice.
Hans
Good to know.
I will certainly ask if your names and other details a) are Canon and b) should be applied to a layer for later printings.
Gregory P. Lee
I will certainly ask if your names and other details a) are Canon and b) should be applied to a layer for later printings.
Gregory P. Lee
I'm sorry, I usually include a non-canon tag when I mention non-canon facts, but I forgot this time. It's not canon. It's not even JTAS Online material. But if you like to add ocean names to the map, I'd be happy to send you a map with them.
Hans
The rank insignia and titles don't really matter that much. Many places in the world use the same title pattern as either the UK, Spain, or Russia. This is to be compatible with the US, UK, Spain, or Russia/USSR... and for those with compatibility with Spain, that's a 19th C legacy.
And it isn't like everyone doesn't politely ignore that your top two named grades are used for political persons instead of active military. (and it's not like Denmark is alone in so doing.) In practice, you have 8 officer ranks; on paper, y'all have the standard 10. And Y'all even use the standard titles.
Which makes them fine for a generic list. With, of course, a note that the actual names could be different.
Last I checked it was the top rank (full admiral) that was used by the monarch. The chief of the Navy is a Vice Admiral, and either rear admiral or commodore (I forget which) isn't used, officers being promoted from below to above it.
That's not the point, though. The point is that a navy the size of the Danish one can work with just eight command levels. The USN needs 11 (using one rank to cover two levels). And the Imperial Navy apparently has eight to cover subdivisions of a similar size (a numbered fleet) since O9 and O10 are used for sector and Imperium levels. And while in theory 'commodore' could cover several command levels, there's no indication (in the promotion rules and the setting material) that this is actually done. Besides, Grand Admirals at the Imperial level, of which there can't be more than a handful, appears to be the rank-equivalent of army generals, of which there must be as many on a single high-population world as there are grand admirals. Which seems quite implausible to me.
So a rule for adapting the generic rank table for different-sized navies would have been useful back then and would be useful now.
Hans
Actually, you can get away with 5 for ANY navy.
Ensign (working officers)
Lieutenant (department heads)
Captain/Commander
Admiral
Admiral in chief
All the rest are unneeded, but beneficial.
In each grade, seniority can be simply numbered. It's cumbersome in some ways, but hardly impossible.
The various grades of admiral are essentially unneeded - the US only added them in the mid 19th century because no one else treated our Commodores as flag officers (even tho' we did, despite it being a positional rank).
That said, it's nice to have the various flag grades. One for squadrons, one for fleets, one for subsector, one for sector, and one for domain (which is the highest level in canon with a functional Navy HQ).
It's also nice for the working officers to have 3-4 grades, so you can promote them. And for the department heads to have 2-3 grades, possibly overlapping the high end of the working officers. And the command grades being split into 2-4 has some merit...
One can, in theory, justify a system with 18 to 20 grades. It wouldn't feel right to me to go above 17... but I can see how people justify a barely a division having a 15 grade system...
At the company level, 2 wings of 2 platoons each. A captain, a 1Lt, 2x 2Lt (plt 1 & 3), 2x 3Lt (Plt 2 & 4)
At the Battalion, add a Senior Captain and a Major
At the Regiment, a Lieutenant colonel and a colonel
At the brigade, a senior colonel and a Brigadier.
At the division, a Lieutenant General of the Division and a General of the Division
At higher HQ, General of the Department, Vice General of the Army and General of the Army
(Some third world countries really do get this odd.)
And, in an empire, most members are going to adopt a rank system not too dissimilar to the Empire's for their own local forces, if only to make interfacing easier.
You're mixing up ranks and command levels. There's usually a strong correlation, but as you say, a rank can be stretched to cover more than one by various dodges. The Danish Navy has ten ranks, but only uses eight of them, presumably because they only use eight command levels.
I don't think there's a separate domain command. OTOH there definitely is an admiralty at Capital. Where the grand admirals congregate.
squadron - system fleet - subsector fleet - sector fleet - Imperial Navy. That's five command levels. If squadron level is O7, you're up to O12 or the equivalent for the Imperium as a whole.
Part of my point.
Sure. And their officers will be roughly the rank-equivalent of Imperial Navy officers with similar command responsibilities. And if a system navy has grand admirals, system navy grand admirals will be the rank-equivalent of a IN system fleet commander, not an IN grand admiral. Just as IN system fleet commanders will be the rank-equivalent of system army generals (O10) or perhaps even chiefs of system armies (O11).
It's certainly possible that the IN only has ten ranks, but if it does, the top three would be of a higher rank-equivalency than O10 army generals and the fourth would cover the spread from O7 to O10 all by its ownsome.
Hans
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And I would be happy to look at them, actually. But I personally am cautious about adding "too much canon." Also, it always has to fit with the overall long-term plans. I am a relatively new convert to writing in the canon universe; my original concept for "Lee's Guide" oh so many years ago was to avoid the "OTU," and the items I wrote in the 1990's were tacked into the OTU without paying any attention to the larger OTU. My most difficult task in writing Cirque was in avoiding contradiction of canon,followed by creation of inconsistent (alleged) canon, followed by integrating information from other sources.
For example, though I was graciously permitted to use some GURPS details in my world descriptions, I also had to avoid strict copyright infringement. Thus, you won't find the GURPS map of Dyrnwyn in Cirque, despite the fact that a good bit of the GURPS "raw data" finds its way in. I also added a little bit on the companion star and its effect ( the "Five Year Bloom"). At the same time, I let an inconsistency slip in -- Aramais suggests it's an annual event. Was that one of my intentional "Aramais is an "unreliable narrator" items, or did I write/edit the bits at two different times and miss the contradiction? Well, my intent doesn't matter, or my mistake, because I have to INTEND that the non-Aramais statement is the more accurate.
And therein lies the real rub. The less I personally establish, the less I will create canon fights among those devout in different editions, versions, and so on. Don't get me wrong, I'm tickled that I have added to the OTU -- there are two news bits in Imperiallines which may inspire referees running in the late 1100's to adventures that borrow from information in Cirque -- but I am very, very interested in AVOIDING the creation of religious warfare between the various branches of Travellerism.
GPL
OK. I'll send you a copy.
Personally, I think that every little bit added to what you already have makes just a little bit more. Describing a place the size of Charted Space, or just the Imperium, is a huge task and I, at least, feel the need for every bit of help I can get.
I'm puzzled to hear that on several accounts. I would have thought that after the DGP copyright incident Marc Miller would have made sure he (and any of his licencees) had the right to use anything published by a licencee as background material (i.e. can't use a particular rendering of a map without the permission of the copyright holder, but you can make another map yourself). I am surprised that SJG wouldn't allow you to use the map -- they're usually very accomodating about their Traveller copyrights. And I'm surprised that if for some reason the original map was off limit, you (i.e. MM) didn't just decanonize it and let you make a new one. The whole point of having a canon (IMO) is to facilitate the use of background material. If it becomes a hindrance, amputate it! (Is my opinion).
Accidental contradictions are impossible to avoid completely. Believe me, I know! What ought to be done in such cases (again IMO) is to clarify which statement is correct from now on and in the future.
And the less support you provide for the referees that buy you product. To paraphrase something I said a little while back: Lots of details or no canon conflicts; pick one.
OK, that's a tiny bit hyperbolic, but I think there's a good deal of truth in it.
Hans
To be clear, I did not REQUEST permission to use the actual map. I decided, on my own, that I would not seek the permission. Yes, both SJG and Loren were very accommodating on the general permission. However, speaking as an attorney with some copyright familiarity, I didn't feel I had that specific permission, and wanted to avoid the nuisance of getting it, in writing, as more than an e-mail. I also wanted to avoid re-using illustrations from prior work, both sketches and maps, and to avoid requiring brand-new refs and players to actually purchase any other source.
This was also something that Tim Osborne sort of instilled in me during the process. The wonderful "Bestiary" updates he provided were because he insisted that I not use old illustrations -- though MM had already given me permission, and I mocked up that section with the old pics. Tim was so insistent, he started drawing without a pay deal; he is the consummate pro. Though I now own all pics based on our deal, I will pay Tim a royalty any time I sell an individual copy of one of his pics, including the cover. And I expect to be putting together a limited run of 13 x 19 full-color copies of the front cover and/or the art alone soon.
On your view that "more canon is better" -- again, I'm against piling it higher and higher. It can get in the way of creativity, and absolutely creates MASSIVE research work for both writers and canon-checkers. Poor Don probably read my texts over and over to make sure I contradicted no canon. I also don't want to bind referees entirely -- if they have a different take on something, let them use the take.
GPL
And, frankly, to be fair, I had a somewhat different vision of both the science and likely human response to living on a livable yet tide-locked world. I had trouble with the map as functional; inner temp and heat is likely to be essential to make such a world livable. So long as Grandfather was apparently playing, I let him play, if you will.
Those refs who want to use the GURPS version can call me a vile traitor. Those who choose mine -- certainly fine with me.
Those refs who want to use the GURPS version can call me a vile traitor. Those who choose mine -- certainly fine with me.
I can see the point about fact-checking, but that just comes with the territory. As Robert Prior so wisely said a while back: "The very act of writing a Traveller book closes the doors on possibilities. Any game supplement does that, assuming the publisher cares about internal consistency."
The other point I don't accept, though. No canon ever binds any referee unless he wants it to. People are free to ignore anything that goes against whatever they want to do in their own personal TU. If they have a different take on anything, all they have to do is use that take. There is no canon police to enfore canon compliance. What some people complain about as stifling creativity I see as providing support -- the very purpose of having a canonical setting in the first place.
Hans
Hmmmmm....no Canon-police? Players who go from game to game can be quite difficult at times ("I played in so-and-so's game, and HE [always HE] said...."). But that wasn't so much my point as to say that the referee needs to be involved enough in the material to do SOME of the needed work. Otherwise, he or she is like a Pathfinder Society ref I observed at the last major convention I was at -- reading descriptions verbatim.
My view has ALWAYS been to paint with a broad brush, and leave the fine details to the referee's and players' imagination. That's the fun of it. Sometimes a particular world and its history grows in an ongoing campaign, whether written or played, sometimes not. Traveller is big enough to leave lots of open questions.
For example, one of these days I am going to be forced to explain what a "crom" is, what planet it's native to, and so on. Why? Because I wrote a throw-away line for Aramais about a cromburger joint on Regina...and went backward to mention another cromburger joint on Old Station in Rhylanor. Or, perhaps, some ref will propose it, make a lovely bestiary entry out of it. I prefer THAT sort of "organic" growth in the canon to extensive history-writing. If nothing else, it's stylistic.
And, speaking of bestiary -- only ONE of the three "new" animals I wrote for Cirque started as MY idea (the vreeper). The Fan Lizards and the Duranthe (pronounced Dur-ANN-tay) were pictures Tim came up with. As the Duranthe was on the cover with its huge, double schnozz, I had to dig into the bestiary and learn how to really use the T5 rules on critters. The vreepers were needed because -- well, they're needed. And I needed something better than lions, with a Vilani sense to it, for a tamer to tame. I let necessity spur invention when possible.
I make a point of telling new players not to rely on anything they've read until I have confirmed it.
Word count limitations usually take care of that anyway. There's a limit to how much one can include in a module no matter how much one would like to.
The problem with that approach is that one ref will establish that it's a Reginan herbivore that is exported to Rhylanor, another will establish that it's a Rhylanorian omnivore that is exported to Regina, a third will establish that it's a marine animal that was spread all over the Marches by the Zhodani around -1000, etc., etc.. And then, when someone writes up the crom for an official publicantion, none of them will be canonical.
But that word count factor means that the end result is going to be pretty much the same.
Hans
And I can say that I was using it as an example to make a point about a general issue, not to do an in-depth exploration of the Crom Question.
Hans
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Shucks, conflicting or incorrect sources just makes it more realistic.
There are multiple countries that still claim to have been "first in flight" and that was just a bit over a hundred years ago.
Vikings never wore helmets with horns on them. Ever. Yet even in the Golden Age of the 3rd Imperium people will believe Viking helmets had horns on them, all because some Victorian artist made them up and the rest copied the idea ever since.
We can't even get agreement on whether Global Warming is happening or not. There are so many parties who will make or lose money over it that they've purposely obfuscated the facts - whatever those are.
There are multiple countries that still claim to have been "first in flight" and that was just a bit over a hundred years ago.
Vikings never wore helmets with horns on them. Ever. Yet even in the Golden Age of the 3rd Imperium people will believe Viking helmets had horns on them, all because some Victorian artist made them up and the rest copied the idea ever since.
We can't even get agreement on whether Global Warming is happening or not. There are so many parties who will make or lose money over it that they've purposely obfuscated the facts - whatever those are.
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Back to the original topic, Regina geography...
I'm thinking the original ruling noble family of Regina planet was the Viscounty line. Their fief would naturally have been near the heart of the economic activity on the planet which, back when Regina was founded, was Princeps.
After Regina planet became the subsector capital and a Duke set up residence, the ducal seat would have been carved out of land not already controlled by other nobles.
Politics came into play with the upshot that a new planetary capital was built on NonCredo, the same continent the duke's land was on. The Imperial Lines article said that Norris' predecessors had encouraged lots of industrial development on their fief in southern Noncredo - which implies that there hadn't been alot of it already.
None of that has any bearing on whether Norris or his family hold the Viscounty title in 1100 or thereabouts.
For the record, my character who received the viscounty, is Imaah "Chesty" Chehesti. She is a retired Imperial Marine General and highly decorated war hero.
She and Norris met in 1097 at Byret/Mora when Norris was still in the Navy and she was leading an Imperial Marine campaign to put down an insurgency on Byret. She realized his abilities and had him transferred out of Santanocheev's staff onto hers where he lead the Intelligence effort against the insurgency - until his older brother died and he inherited the title.
They remained fast friends. Her glowing recommendation of Norris to the Emperor was a contributing factor to Norris's ascendency in the Marches. That, and his help formulating a plan to discredit the opposition to the Emperor in the moot that Chehesti implemented afterwards.
I'm thinking the original ruling noble family of Regina planet was the Viscounty line. Their fief would naturally have been near the heart of the economic activity on the planet which, back when Regina was founded, was Princeps.
After Regina planet became the subsector capital and a Duke set up residence, the ducal seat would have been carved out of land not already controlled by other nobles.
Politics came into play with the upshot that a new planetary capital was built on NonCredo, the same continent the duke's land was on. The Imperial Lines article said that Norris' predecessors had encouraged lots of industrial development on their fief in southern Noncredo - which implies that there hadn't been alot of it already.
None of that has any bearing on whether Norris or his family hold the Viscounty title in 1100 or thereabouts.
For the record, my character who received the viscounty, is Imaah "Chesty" Chehesti. She is a retired Imperial Marine General and highly decorated war hero.
She and Norris met in 1097 at Byret/Mora when Norris was still in the Navy and she was leading an Imperial Marine campaign to put down an insurgency on Byret. She realized his abilities and had him transferred out of Santanocheev's staff onto hers where he lead the Intelligence effort against the insurgency - until his older brother died and he inherited the title.
They remained fast friends. Her glowing recommendation of Norris to the Emperor was a contributing factor to Norris's ascendency in the Marches. That, and his help formulating a plan to discredit the opposition to the Emperor in the moot that Chehesti implemented afterwards.
