Reasons for not inheriting noble title

[rancke]

To help me work out historical details for my Traveller universe, I make up random tables and roll on them to establish various facts that I then elaborate on. This helps me to avoid falling into a rut and using the same idea again and again. For example, when I work on a character with an Imperial noble title, I roll a D12 to see if he was the first child of his parents; on 1-8 he is a first child, on 9-11 he's a second child, and on a 12 he's a third or higher child. Pretty basic stuff, I know. Other of my random rolls are more complicated. This one is relevant to the problem I'd like help for, though.

Once I find that a noble is second or third child, I'd like to establish what happened to his elder siblings.

The Imperium practices gender-neutral primogeniture. The Emperor can pass over an heir if he, the Emperor, doesn't want him, the heir, to inherit. This would, I presume, be rare and require a specific reason. Doing it capriciously would probably arouse too much resentment from his nobles.

Here are the various reasons that I've come up with:

a) Sibling died without issue before inheriting.
b) Sibling was unable to perform his duties (This probably requires the heir to be actively incompetent; I imagine the Emperor would accept a merely mediocre heir).
c) Sibling renounced title to pursue other interests.
d) Sibling blotted his copybook (This one may warrant a subtable: e.g. married unsuitable spouse, commited crime short of treason, became an addict of some kind, health issues).
e) Committed treason.

The help I'm looking for is twofold: First, can you think of other reasons why a noble heir would be passed over? Secondly, what "weight" would you assign each of the possibilities? (If you think that it's ten times more likely that an heir didn't inherit because he died prematurely than because he was incompetent, you might assign (a) a weight of 10 and (b) a weight of 1 (depends on what you think of the other possibilities, of course). )

Note that historically noble heirs were very rarely passed over for incompetence (or for any reason short of treason, really). In fact, I'm not sure if in many cases it was even legal to pass them over. The Emperor's right to set aside unsuitable heirs is not historical and does not follow historical practice. (It is mentioned in canonical setting material). To a certain extend whatever numbers I eventually establish will determine how "sensitive" the Imperium is to these matters. So it's very much a question of opinions. Your opinion. How acceptable is it in Imperial culture for an heir to renounce a title because he'd rather do something else? What sort of behavior can an heir get away with in the Imperium? And so on and so forth.

Penultimate note: After long deliberation I put this query in the IMTU forum to avoid getting sidetracked by discussions about whether the 3rd Imperium really works this or that way. However, I do try to keep my TU as close to the OTU as I find practical, so feel free to bring up canon evidence.

Final note: The tables I construct may one day end up published on JTAS Online or somewhere else. Please don't contribute to this thread unless you're willing to let me base an article partly on your input, with no more acknowledgement than a "thanks to the people at CotI".


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Once I find that a noble is second or third child, I'd like to establish what happened to his elder siblings.
.
.
.
Here are the various reasons that I've come up with:

a) Sibling died without issue before inheriting.
b) Sibling was unable to perform his duties (This probably requires the heir to be actively incompetent; I imagine the Emperor would accept a merely mediocre heir).
c) Sibling renounced title to pursue other interests.
d) Sibling blotted his copybook (This one may warrant a subtable: e.g. married unsuitable spouse, commited crime short of treason, became an addict of some kind, health issues).
e) Committed treason.

The help I'm looking for is twofold: First, can you think of other reasons why a noble heir would be passed over? Secondly, what "weight" would you assign each of the possibilities? (If you think that it's ten times more likely that an heir didn't inherit because he died prematurely than because he was incompetent, you might assign (a) a weight of 10 and (b) a weight of 1 (depends on what you think of the other possibilities, of course). )

One thing that has been mentioned in canon is that among the Vilani, the heir was traditionally the third child, not the first. Since according to GT:Nobles and elsewhere I believe it has been established that various forms of inheritance pattern are recognized by the Imperium (based on local or cultural custom), Nobles of strong Vilani cultural background may preferentially have a 3rd child inherit. (I believe the 1st or 2nd child would hold the position of shulgiili by tradition, if I am not mistaken).

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Also, it is possible that several titles of a parent may be divided among the heirs, rather than one heir inheriting them all.
[/FONT]
So my Vilani example may have to be adjudicated separately, based on culture.

The others however (weighting based on a percentage scale):

==================================

[FONT=arial,helvetica] a) Sibling died without issue before inheriting. WEIGHT= 40%[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] b) Sibling was unable to perform his duties (This probably requires the heir to be actively incompetent; I imagine the Emperor would accept a merely mediocre heir). [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 10%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] c) Sibling renounced title to pursue other interests. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 10%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] d) Sibling blotted his copybook (This one may warrant a sub-table: e.g. married [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica] unsuitable spouse, committed crime short of treason, became an addict of some kind, health issues). [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 15%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] e) Committed treason.[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 5%[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]f) Heir to only part of a set of titles. [/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 20%[/FONT]

==================================​

 

[CosmicGamer]

c) Sibling renounced title to pursue other interests. [FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]WEIGHT= 10%[/FONT][/FONT]

The rank of the noble seams to be a factor too perhaps.

For example, a child who is career oriented, progressing in rank, happy, productive and of some importance in the Navy (or any career) may not want to give up their command/career to take over a low level Noble role of their elder.

 

[rancke]

The rank of the noble seams to be a factor too perhaps.

For example, a child who is career oriented, progressing in rank, happy, productive and of some importance in the Navy (or any career) may not want to give up their command/career to take over a low level Noble role of their elder.

I see that I've overlooked one factor here: So far I've only worked with high nobles. Now that you've made me think about it, there's a big difference between high and honor nobles. High nobles have a job to do that comes with the title. If you can't do that job and pursue a career or interest at the same time, you have to make a choice (I'm not sure it always is impossible to combine the two, even if it will mean leaving the high noble duties to a deputy much of the time). But being an honor noble doesn't prevent you from having a career, so there'd be no reason to have to renounce your title (I'm assuming that there is no equivalent to the British rule about having to renounce your title in order to stand for the House of Commons).

As for the specific rank, any Imperial title is a big deal. Make that Very Big Deal. Britain has/had around one noble per ten or twenty thousand people. The Imperium has a small handful of nobles per major world. Being an European noble (back before the nobility was emasculated) meant being the most important person in 10,000 (and up). Being an Imperial noble means being the most important person in several hundreds of millions (and up). So I don't know how much the difference between renouncing an Imperial barony (one in hundreds of millions) and an Imperial dukedom (one in tens of billions) would affect the frequency. They'd both be pretty rare. On the other hand, we are talking about two orders of magnitude.

I really can't make up my mind on that question.


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

Another possible reason for not inheriting ...

In the 3I, can noble titles be sold? I might have been a Baron in RL (or at least currently my Father would) if my great-great-great-...-grandfather didn't have to settle some gambling debts. In England a subsequent law banned the process after a certain date.

Or, if there's nothing in canon, might I suggest that maybe Imperial titles can't but those from Archdukes can? (That would be knighthoods and baronetcies.)

 

[flykiller]

you should try the ancient turkish method. the sultan simply produces children, anywhere, with anyone, as he pleases. on his death all his male children have equal claim to the throne, and they duke it out by any and all means available. war, murder, assassination, you name it, it's all good to them.

 

[SpaceBadger]

you should try the ancient turkish method. the sultan simply produces children, anywhere, with anyone, as he pleases. on his death all his male children have equal claim to the throne, and they duke it out by any and all means available. war, murder, assassination, you name it, it's all good to them.

Well, that would make an interesting setting, but not one most folks would especially want to live in... As in the old Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

 

[flykiller]

but not one most folks would especially want to live in...

nobody gets to choose where they live.

ok, let's say this is the governmental system for one planet, a fairly wealthy one for whatever reason. now the planet sultan is getting old so his sons start jockeying for power, looking for allies off-world, building up military strength to use locally, looking for ships and mercenaries and trading rights and superior business deals to attract ascension support ....

 

[rancke]

you should try the ancient turkish method. the sultan simply produces children, anywhere, with anyone, as he pleases. on his death all his male children have equal claim to the throne, and they duke it out by any and all means available. war, murder, assassination, you name it, it's all good to them.

I don't think I'll try that. It doesn't seem like a method the Imperium would consider a good idea for succession of any of its nobles.


Hans

 

[SpaceBadger]

but not one most folks would especially want to live in...

nobody gets to choose where they live.

ok, let's say this is the governmental system for one planet, a fairly wealthy one for whatever reason. now the planet sultan is getting old so his sons start jockeying for power, looking for allies off-world, building up military strength to use locally, looking for ships and mercenaries and trading rights and superior business deals to attract ascension support ....

I didn't say that it would be unrealistic, merely unpleasant. :devil:

Perhaps I tend to empathize too much with all of these billions of imaginary people that we create as planetary populations.

 

[flykiller]

It doesn't seem like a method the Imperium would consider a good idea for succession of any of its nobles.

maybe the world in question joined the imperium by treaty which specified that the world would choose its own leader its own way in perpetuity.

after all, the point is to have a good game, yes?

 

[flykiller]

Perhaps I tend to empathize too much with all of these billions of imaginary people that we create as planetary populations.

continue, but empathize with the players too.

 

[rancke]

maybe the world in question joined the imperium by treaty which specified that the world would choose its own leader its own way in perpetuity.

Yes, but I doubt that would happen sufficiently often to warrant inclusion in a set of random tables. f I ever have to deal with such a noble, I'd just wing it.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

To help me work out historical details for my Traveller universe, I make up random tables and roll on them to establish various facts that I then elaborate on. This helps me to avoid falling into a rut and using the same idea again and again. For example, when I work on a character with an Imperial noble title, I roll a D12 to see if he was the first child of his parents; on 1-8 he is a first child, on 9-11 he's a second child, and on a 12 he's a third or higher child. Pretty basic stuff, I know. Other of my random rolls are more complicated. This one is relevant to the problem I'd like help for, though.

Once I find that a noble is second or third child, I'd like to establish what happened to his elder siblings.

The Imperium practices gender-neutral primogeniture. The Emperor can pass over an heir if he, the Emperor, doesn't want him, the heir, to inherit. This would, I presume, be rare and require a specific reason. Doing it capriciously would probably arouse too much resentment from his nobles.

Here are the various reasons that I've come up with:

a) Sibling died without issue before inheriting.

From MT:V&V, page 16:

(...) THe third child of every noble was noble, the others were commoners

So, it seems that among the Vilani the heir is the third child, and, while not expicited, we can asume it less than three childs were issued, the title was lost.

In the 3I, can noble titles be sold? I might have been a Baron in RL (or at least currently my Father would) if my great-great-great-...-grandfather didn't have to settle some gambling debts. In England a subsequent law banned the process after a certain date.

Or, if there's nothing in canon, might I suggest that maybe Imperial titles can't but those from Archdukes can? (That would be knighthoods and baronetcies.)

In Spain, while you cannot sell you Title (should you have one), inheritance taxes may lead someone to renounce to it.

 

[Carlobrand]

you should try the ancient turkish method. the sultan simply produces children, anywhere, with anyone, as he pleases. on his death all his male children have equal claim to the throne, and they duke it out by any and all means available. war, murder, assassination, you name it, it's all good to them.

Sounds very Vargrish.

 

[flykiller]

Sounds very Vargrish.

truly alien societies would be ... too alien.

the turkish way was limited to a single tribe on a single peninsula (anatolia) and probably wouldn't work for planetary/subsector-distributed vargr. the concept of inheritance itself would suffer because of too many outsiders available for challenge.

 

[Dagrill]

truly alien societies would be ... too alien.
the turkish way was limited to a single tribe on a single peninsula (anatolia) and probably wouldn't work for planetary/subsector-distributed vargr. the concept of inheritance itself would suffer because of too many outsiders available for challenge.

Hi,

was this the practice prior to 1453? I always assumed the Turks picked up
the custom from the Byzantines and adopted the practice following the capture of Constantinople.

Kind Regards

David

 

[flykiller]

was this the practice prior to 1453? I always assumed the Turks picked up
the custom from the Byzantines and adopted the practice following the capture of Constantinople.

yes, this was turkish practice from the beginning. the byzantines took advantage of it for centuries to keep the turks in line - the byzantines would always keep a turkish heir or two available in the city to lead a rebellion within turkey whenever the turks became too powerful. this was one of the reasons byzantium lasted as long as it did after the turks arrived.

may I recommend the book "1453" by Crowley to everyone. it is about the seige and fall of constantinople and is an absolutely fantastic book in every sense. it covers everything about the event from the broad strategic sweep of history (such as turkish cultural practices) to miniscule details (such as setting out bowls of water to detect mining operations). it discusses the height of the venetian cogs and the lay of the roman wall and the casting of the turkish canons (overseen by a christian!). it covers the major personalities and the religious beliefs / economic considerations / political realities that drove them all. it is great in every way.

 

[FreeTrav]

If the Emperor rejects the heir apparent, it might be for political reasons - for example, the Marquis of Theatre is, essentially, a non-entity on the political stage, just doing the job without being particularly good or bad or noticed about it. His daughter is his heir apparent, and is unlikely to be much different. His son has promise as a dynamic leader, but wouldn't normally be eligible. However, the heir apparent to the Duchy of Rubber took a fancy to him, they hit it off, and got married. The current Duke of Rubber is a close personal friend of the Emperor, dating back to when they were both kids playing in the Imperial gardens. Or the ducal corral, on alternate weekends. His Grace, in discussions some time after the wedding, brings to the Emperor's attention the benefits to the Marquisate of bypassing the formal heir and making the son the heir to the Marquisate. Because the Duke is an old friend, the Emperor pays attention. Carefully left unsaid is the benefits to the Duchy of Rubber of having influence amounting to control of the Marquisate, and later on the unification of the two titles.

 

[whulorigan]

If the Emperor rejects the heir apparent, it might be for political reasons - for example, the Marquis of Theatre is, essentially, a non-entity on the political stage, just doing the job without being particularly good or bad or noticed about it. His daughter is his heir apparent, and is unlikely to be much different. His son has promise as a dynamic leader, but wouldn't normally be eligible. However, the heir apparent to the Duchy of Rubber took a fancy to him, they hit it off, and got married. The current Duke of Rubber is a close personal friend of the Emperor, dating back to when they were both kids playing in the Imperial gardens. Or the ducal corral, on alternate weekends. His Grace, in discussions some time after the wedding, brings to the Emperor's attention the benefits to the Marquisate of bypassing the formal heir and making the son the heir to the Marquisate. Because the Duke is an old friend, the Emperor pays attention. Carefully left unsaid is the benefits to the Duchy of Rubber of having influence amounting to control of the Marquisate, and later on the unification of the two titles.

The problem with this is that it would destabilize the system of Nobility if the Emperor beahved in this manor. This is one of the very reasons for the existence of the Imperial Moot. The Emperor is just as dependent on the good graces of his Nobles as they are upon his good graces, in the feudal-style system of interstellar government practiced by the Third Imperium. Nobility is a position of status, not just a career. It is a dignity passed from one generation to the next, that individual nobles and their families are invested in. If the Nobility perceive that this is being threatened, and that they can be disenfranchised on the Emperor's whim, then they will not trust him, and will look to their own social survival above the interests of the Imperium. The Emperor, in turn, will no longer be able to trust them either. A system as described above would devolve into rebellion and civil war, not a 1000+ year stable empire.

The purpose of the Moot having the authority to "dissolve the Imperium" was an authority granted to them by Cleon I explicitly to be a check/balance system against a potential Imperial autocrat. Otherwise, the Sylean Grand Senate would never have agreed to the formation of the Imperium in the first place. The ability of the Nobility to effectively tell the Emperor: "the Imperium is over and your authority is at an end" is a counterweight against an out-of-control Imperial Household. The Imperial Nobility are very unlikely to accept the Emperor removing nobles from their stations for either trivial or political reasons without protest. If it can happen to any one of them, then it can potentially happen to anyone else among them as well. The Emperor must be careful that his decisions and policies do not overstep so far that he angers the body of Nobles-corporate, otherwise, he will not have his throne for long.