Ranks and Authority
- Thread starter Savar
- Start date
I'm sure theres something for the OTU, but based on the realworld(tm) there is wikipedia ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organisation
is a good place to start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organisation
is a good place to start.
Since we're on the subject of ranks, does anyone else find the chance at promotion during Prior History to be inadequate?
One of my online friends happens to be a retired US marine, and we were chatting about the different ranks. Apparently the scale goes up to E9, which means there are fully three ranks that are missing from say the Marine Prior History.
The other thing is, in his view if you don't make Corporeal (in real life it would be E4, but in T20 it's E3) by the end of four years, there might be something wrong with you.
But you can't get that with the rules as they are in the Handbook. You get once chance at promotion each term, and each term is four years long. Thoughts?
One of my online friends happens to be a retired US marine, and we were chatting about the different ranks. Apparently the scale goes up to E9, which means there are fully three ranks that are missing from say the Marine Prior History.
The other thing is, in his view if you don't make Corporeal (in real life it would be E4, but in T20 it's E3) by the end of four years, there might be something wrong with you.
But you can't get that with the rules as they are in the Handbook. You get once chance at promotion each term, and each term is four years long. Thoughts?
If you're not corporeal when you inlist there is a problem
I assume you mean corporal.
How fast you go up ranks is purely dependant on the culture that you are describing. It might be worth looking at the NATO rank equivalency charts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO) to get an idea of how different forces handle this.
E6 in T20 is E9 in the US army. Sergeant Major level.
How fast you go up ranks is purely dependant on the culture that you are describing. It might be worth looking at the NATO rank equivalency charts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO) to get an idea of how different forces handle this.
E6 in T20 is E9 in the US army. Sergeant Major level.
Stofsk,
I don't understand. Are you saying that T20 stops at E6 or that enlisted ranks should go to E12?
Another poster pointed out that the 57th Century Third Imperium is not the 21st Century USA and the idea of "up or out" regarding military ranks is a relatively recent one in world history.
It was first applied to officers. If you didn't make grade within a certain period after most of the others in your class made grade or after a certain number of promotion cycles, you were 'asked' to resign. This was due to there being a smaller number of billets available in one pay grade when compared to the next lower paygrade.
The idea has only recently been applied to enlisted ranks; within the last few decades IIRC. 'Career' privates and corporals close to retirement age weren't exactly the norm, but they weren't anywhere near rare either. Seniority used to play an overwhelming role in enlisted promotion far outweighing 'merit' or test scores. An uncle of mine who joined in the late 50s spent 25 years in the service. He was decorated, recieved excellent fit-reps, and the like yet he didn't make E7 until he had been in nearly 19 years because of the numbers of men ahead of him in service time. OTOH, I joined in the early 80s and would have made E7 in just under 7 years.
Ditch T20 and use CT's or MT's advanced chargen?
Seriously, jigger the T20 promotion rules more to your liking. T20 is an excellent set of rules and it is more than robust enough to withstand a house rule or three concerning faster promotions.
Have fun,
Bill
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Navy Rates (Enlisted)
E0 - Recruit ("Booter")
E1 - Seaman Recruit - SR
E2 - Seaman Apprentice - SA
E3 - Seaman - SN
E4 - Petty Officer 3rd Class - PO3
E5 - Petty Officer 2nd Class - PO2
E6 - Petty Officer 1st Class - PO1
E7 - Chief Petty Officer - CPO
E8 - Senior Chief Petty Officer - SCPO
E9 - Master Chief Petty Officer - MCPO
E10 - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy - MCPON is the senior enlisted person in the Navy. The MCPON serves as the senior enlisted leader of the Navy, and as an advisor to the Chief of Naval Operations and to the Chief of Naval Personnel in matters dealing with enlisted personnel and their families.
The MCPON is also an advisor to the many boards dealing with enlisted personnel issues; is the enlisted representative of the Department of the Navy at special events; may be called upon to testify on enlisted personnel issues before Congress; and, maintains a liaison with enlisted spouse organizations.
Limited-Duty Officer Ranks (Warrants):
W1 - Warrant Officer (Discontinued) - WO1
W2 - Chief Warrant Officer 2 - CWO2
W3 - Chief Warrant Officer 3 - CWO3
W4 - Chief Warrant Officer 4 - CWO4
W5 - Chief Warrant Officer 5 (Created in 2002) - CWO5
The functional role of the Warrant Officer is to provide technical expertise at a relatively constant grade level within the officer structure. The duties they perform are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories such as unrestricted line, restricted line, staff or limited duty. That is, the occupational areas of warrant officers do not expand, especially afloat, since their primary duties involve an application of technical and leadership skills versus primarily management functions.
Commissioned Officers
Unrestricted Line Officers are those who are eligible for command of ships, submarines, aircraft squadrons, fleets, and shore bases such as naval bases and naval air stations.
Restricted Line Officers are officers of the line of the Regular Navy and Naval Reserve who are restricted in the performance of duty by having been designated for aviation duty, engineering duty, aerospace engineering duty, or special duty.
Staff Corps Officers are specialists in career fields which are professions unto themselves, such as physicians, nurses, chaplains, lawyers, civil engineers, etc.
Command Rate Officer Ranks
O1 - Ensign - ENS
O2 - Lieutenant Junior Grade - LTJG
O3 - Lieutenant - LT
O4 - Lieutenant Commander - LCDR
O5 - Commander - CDR
O6 - Captain - CAPT
Flag Rate Officer Ranks
O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half) RDML
O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half) RADM
O9 - Vice Admiral VADM
O10 - Admiral ADM
O11 - Fleet Admiral FADM (War time use only)
Basically, anyone of a higher rank has legal authority to direct the activities of any person of lesser rank. It's the scope of the orders that change. For example,
CAPT "Clean this ship."
CMDR "Clean each departmental area."
LT "Chief, clean these spaces and passageways."
CPO "Petty Officers will supervise cleaning as follows..."
PO "You three are sweepers, you two are swabbers, and I get to run the buffer."
SN "That's MY broom! Get your own!"
SR "Will you sign my leave chit?"
E0 - Recruit ("Booter")
E1 - Seaman Recruit - SR
E2 - Seaman Apprentice - SA
E3 - Seaman - SN
E4 - Petty Officer 3rd Class - PO3
E5 - Petty Officer 2nd Class - PO2
E6 - Petty Officer 1st Class - PO1
E7 - Chief Petty Officer - CPO
E8 - Senior Chief Petty Officer - SCPO
E9 - Master Chief Petty Officer - MCPO
E10 - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy - MCPON is the senior enlisted person in the Navy. The MCPON serves as the senior enlisted leader of the Navy, and as an advisor to the Chief of Naval Operations and to the Chief of Naval Personnel in matters dealing with enlisted personnel and their families.
The MCPON is also an advisor to the many boards dealing with enlisted personnel issues; is the enlisted representative of the Department of the Navy at special events; may be called upon to testify on enlisted personnel issues before Congress; and, maintains a liaison with enlisted spouse organizations.
Limited-Duty Officer Ranks (Warrants):
W1 - Warrant Officer (Discontinued) - WO1
W2 - Chief Warrant Officer 2 - CWO2
W3 - Chief Warrant Officer 3 - CWO3
W4 - Chief Warrant Officer 4 - CWO4
W5 - Chief Warrant Officer 5 (Created in 2002) - CWO5
The functional role of the Warrant Officer is to provide technical expertise at a relatively constant grade level within the officer structure. The duties they perform are limited in scope in relation to other officer categories such as unrestricted line, restricted line, staff or limited duty. That is, the occupational areas of warrant officers do not expand, especially afloat, since their primary duties involve an application of technical and leadership skills versus primarily management functions.
Commissioned Officers
Unrestricted Line Officers are those who are eligible for command of ships, submarines, aircraft squadrons, fleets, and shore bases such as naval bases and naval air stations.
Restricted Line Officers are officers of the line of the Regular Navy and Naval Reserve who are restricted in the performance of duty by having been designated for aviation duty, engineering duty, aerospace engineering duty, or special duty.
Staff Corps Officers are specialists in career fields which are professions unto themselves, such as physicians, nurses, chaplains, lawyers, civil engineers, etc.
Command Rate Officer Ranks
O1 - Ensign - ENS
O2 - Lieutenant Junior Grade - LTJG
O3 - Lieutenant - LT
O4 - Lieutenant Commander - LCDR
O5 - Commander - CDR
O6 - Captain - CAPT
Flag Rate Officer Ranks
O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half) RDML
O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half) RADM
O9 - Vice Admiral VADM
O10 - Admiral ADM
O11 - Fleet Admiral FADM (War time use only)
Basically, anyone of a higher rank has legal authority to direct the activities of any person of lesser rank. It's the scope of the orders that change. For example,
CAPT "Clean this ship."
CMDR "Clean each departmental area."
LT "Chief, clean these spaces and passageways."
CPO "Petty Officers will supervise cleaning as follows..."
PO "You three are sweepers, you two are swabbers, and I get to run the buffer."
SN "That's MY broom! Get your own!"
SR "Will you sign my leave chit?"
You need to include difference between line staff scope.
Captain Hornblower Space lawyer.
"Lt Jasper shine your brass and clean this ship.
Lt Jasper Commanding Good ship LollyPop
"Yes sir. " Sgt Schlock brig the captain. "
SGt Schlock, "then do I have clean this ship?"
As Mentioned in other threads. In U.S. Navy a line command out ranks staff command even if lessor rank but commander of the ship.
Captain Hornblower Space lawyer.
"Lt Jasper shine your brass and clean this ship.
Lt Jasper Commanding Good ship LollyPop
"Yes sir. " Sgt Schlock brig the captain. "
SGt Schlock, "then do I have clean this ship?"
As Mentioned in other threads. In U.S. Navy a line command out ranks staff command even if lessor rank but commander of the ship.
Well I thought there was a mistake or for simplicity's sake they cut out some of the ranks. The rank scales go from 1-6, for both enlisted and officers. I just looked at the Navy, for example, and O6 is Admiral - does that mean ranks like Commodore, Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral are no longer in the game, or never were?
This isn't a problem for me, I'm just curious.
YEs, that's very informative and goes right to the heart of what was bothering me. The idea that career-minded soldiers have to scale the promotion ladder by a certain year in service characterises this modern day climate; it doesn't have to be equivalent to far future militaries.
You learn something new every day.
Ditch T20 and use CT's or MT's advanced chargen?
Seriously, jigger the T20 promotion rules more to your liking. T20 is an excellent set of rules and it is more than robust enough to withstand a house rule or three concerning faster promotions.</font>[/QUOTE]Nah no need. I just wanted to know why it worked the way it did, not necessarily advocating a change.
YEs, that's very informative and goes right to the heart of what was bothering me. The idea that career-minded soldiers have to scale the promotion ladder by a certain year in service characterises this modern day climate; it doesn't have to be equivalent to far future militaries.
</font>[/QUOTE]IIRC, the concept of "up or out" was started in both the US Navy and the British Navy in the late 19th century. I think Teddy Roosevelt started that in the US when he was NavSec or Asst NavSec.
The whole idea is to avoid the situation that the Civil War left the Navy in where the promotion lists were so clogged with the "old guys" that 40-year-old Lieutenants were common. As a consequence, the competent people were leaving the service and leaving the idiots in command. Consider that without such a policy, Eisenhower, Bradley, et al would still have been Lt Col or Col in WWII because all the generals promoted during WW1 would still be on the list.
I looked up stuff on "up or out". The first political discussions in the US began about 1880. The first law was in 1916 according to this link US Army War College Summary and here Is the US Navy Overrated?
Some objections and proposed alternatives are here: Aerospace World and here Maneuver Warfare Dilema
Some objections and proposed alternatives are here: Aerospace World and here Maneuver Warfare Dilema
Plankowner
SOC-13
Another issue to me is the lack of ranks. If a military force that is only part of one TL8 planet needs 11 levels of officers, what would a Military with 11,000+ WORLDS need as far as level of command?
If each BatROn or CruRon has a Commodore (O7) in charge, by the time you get to the Sub-Sector level you are up to )11+, but you still have Sector, Domain and Imperium levels of command structure to go! Does GRAND FLEET address this?
I figure the 6 ranks of officers is a gross oversimplification of the true command structure. Good enough for a game, but WAY too simple. Even the expanded command structures in High Guard only reflect what we have on Earth now, not an Interstellar Imperium level command and control structure.
If each BatROn or CruRon has a Commodore (O7) in charge, by the time you get to the Sub-Sector level you are up to )11+, but you still have Sector, Domain and Imperium levels of command structure to go! Does GRAND FLEET address this?
I figure the 6 ranks of officers is a gross oversimplification of the true command structure. Good enough for a game, but WAY too simple. Even the expanded command structures in High Guard only reflect what we have on Earth now, not an Interstellar Imperium level command and control structure.
<snip>
Yes, it does. It covers some of the political structure (dukes/archdukes/etc) and interaction with the navy, as well as the admirality ranks:
</font>
- Grand Admiral, one of them being Admiral of the Fleet, the rest mostly ceremonial.</font>
- Sector Admiral</font>
- Subsector Admiral</font>
- Fleet Admiral</font>
- Staff Admirals</font>
- Squadron Commanders</font>
I highly recommend this book.
princelian
SOC-12
Were you playing in my Traveller game, once you finish your Prior History we would sit down and try to flesh out what your character actually did to earn his position (if any), promotions (if any), and decorations (if any). For example, a 7-term Navy character who ends up O6 is listed as "Admiral," and let's say the character got an MCUF and a MCG during generation.
Aside: Yes, I know that it's highly unlikely that you can get to Admiral in 7 terms.
The MCUF came in term 3, and happened to coincide with the promotion to Lt. Cmdr., so I as GM might say that the destroyer (DD) the character was serving aboard took significant damage and the character found himself in command as a Lieutenant and managed not only to save the ship but also kill the Zhodani frigates that were swarming around the DD.
After his promotion to Lt. Cmdr., he stayed at that rank for term 4, so let's assume he was serving as XO aboard a bigger ship (CL, say) to size up the potential he showed under fire.
Term 5 he was promoted to full Cmdr., and given command of his own tin can (DD again). During that term, his ship was destroyed! (Wounded.) And he also gained the MCG at the same time, so the DD took some ships with it when it went. Say, his ship saved the merchant convoy while crippling or destroying several pirate ships, or something like that.
Following that, he was promoted to Captain (O5) and then Admiral (06) and retired after seven terms.
IMTU, with a nod toward the Honor Harrington system, there are Captain, J.G., and full Captain ranks. These are the "O5" possibilities. Above that, there are Commodore (basically a permanent Fleet Captain designation), Rear Admiral (squadron), Vice Admiral (division), Admiral (fleet command; subsector-level generally), Sector Admiral, Fleet Admiral (commanding multiple sectors; I do not use Domains but if I did that'd be this guy), and Grand Admiral (overall Imperial Navy command; when vacant this is the Emperor himself, which is a tradition that goes back to Plankwell's time).
The character I outlined above would probably be a Commodore or Rear Admiral, and I'd work with the player to determine what final rank was achieved and what types of ships the character commanded. Squadrons of DDs would be Commodore, while CruRons would be Rear Admiral, for example.
Non-command trees also exist - for example, there is a Fleet Admiral of Engineering who is in command of R&D for the Navy, and there's also a Fleet Admiral of Logistics, which includes medical matters. These admirals don't generally command actual units, but set and review policy, etc.
Aside: Yes, I know that it's highly unlikely that you can get to Admiral in 7 terms.
The MCUF came in term 3, and happened to coincide with the promotion to Lt. Cmdr., so I as GM might say that the destroyer (DD) the character was serving aboard took significant damage and the character found himself in command as a Lieutenant and managed not only to save the ship but also kill the Zhodani frigates that were swarming around the DD.
After his promotion to Lt. Cmdr., he stayed at that rank for term 4, so let's assume he was serving as XO aboard a bigger ship (CL, say) to size up the potential he showed under fire.
Term 5 he was promoted to full Cmdr., and given command of his own tin can (DD again). During that term, his ship was destroyed! (Wounded.) And he also gained the MCG at the same time, so the DD took some ships with it when it went. Say, his ship saved the merchant convoy while crippling or destroying several pirate ships, or something like that.
Following that, he was promoted to Captain (O5) and then Admiral (06) and retired after seven terms.
IMTU, with a nod toward the Honor Harrington system, there are Captain, J.G., and full Captain ranks. These are the "O5" possibilities. Above that, there are Commodore (basically a permanent Fleet Captain designation), Rear Admiral (squadron), Vice Admiral (division), Admiral (fleet command; subsector-level generally), Sector Admiral, Fleet Admiral (commanding multiple sectors; I do not use Domains but if I did that'd be this guy), and Grand Admiral (overall Imperial Navy command; when vacant this is the Emperor himself, which is a tradition that goes back to Plankwell's time).
The character I outlined above would probably be a Commodore or Rear Admiral, and I'd work with the player to determine what final rank was achieved and what types of ships the character commanded. Squadrons of DDs would be Commodore, while CruRons would be Rear Admiral, for example.
Non-command trees also exist - for example, there is a Fleet Admiral of Engineering who is in command of R&D for the Navy, and there's also a Fleet Admiral of Logistics, which includes medical matters. These admirals don't generally command actual units, but set and review policy, etc.
Of course nobody has mentioned the fact that the ranks were rationalized so that you could use a d6 on all the tables for ease of play or creation. Now if you want to be more realistic, use a d12 and expand the ranks to handle this, such as adding technician ranks.
When it comes to promotion, maybe a check every 2 years would be better. I would use a education check with a DC of 20 with a modified of -1 per point of education or even .5 point. Officers would be on a 3 year schedule and have a dc of 30 but they get to use their education and social standing.
I agree, that the up or out began, it was to fight the picture of 40 year old lt's and the like and also a way to get the old fuddie-duddies out of the way of new blood. However, up until WWII, it wasn't at all unusual for long term soldiers to be corporals when they retire or captains, often due to the sheer lack of places to go.
By the way, Eisenhower was not a general when WWII came around, he was a colonel I believe, one of the reasons he had political problems with the Brits who held previously superior ranks. Also, a lot of the old generals/admirals were simply promoted up or sideways from combat commands, often running the various bureau's, leaving the combat commands to younger men. From my studies, even a lot of the older, retired generals often attempted to re-enlist and many were taken back, almost always in the support, training commands where they had the experience and knowledge of how the military worked.
When it comes to promotion, maybe a check every 2 years would be better. I would use a education check with a DC of 20 with a modified of -1 per point of education or even .5 point. Officers would be on a 3 year schedule and have a dc of 30 but they get to use their education and social standing.
I agree, that the up or out began, it was to fight the picture of 40 year old lt's and the like and also a way to get the old fuddie-duddies out of the way of new blood. However, up until WWII, it wasn't at all unusual for long term soldiers to be corporals when they retire or captains, often due to the sheer lack of places to go.
By the way, Eisenhower was not a general when WWII came around, he was a colonel I believe, one of the reasons he had political problems with the Brits who held previously superior ranks. Also, a lot of the old generals/admirals were simply promoted up or sideways from combat commands, often running the various bureau's, leaving the combat commands to younger men. From my studies, even a lot of the older, retired generals often attempted to re-enlist and many were taken back, almost always in the support, training commands where they had the experience and knowledge of how the military worked.
There were plenty of old generals/admirals around when the US started to ramp up for WWII, as was planned for years. They would provide the backbone of the administrative needs for the expanding military, overseeing training commands, supply, etc. but very few of the actual combat commands. Many retired generals, etc., were in fact recalled to active duty service, to handle such things.
At the same time, the tradition of heavily promoting the trained cadre, to provide the expanded officer and senior enlisted corps, went into effect. Many long service privates and corporals, soon found themselves as senior sargeants and the like, with many of the senior sargeants promoted to the officer corps as lts. Actual officers could almost be guaranteeed a promotion of 2-3 steps, depending upon their training and speciality, even before they went into battle.
The policy was that once the need for the huge military was finished, they would be riffed down to their previous ranks, possibly higher due to battlefield heroism, etc.. This is what happened to Custer after the Civil War, reduced from a general to a lt colonel.
At the same time, the tradition of heavily promoting the trained cadre, to provide the expanded officer and senior enlisted corps, went into effect. Many long service privates and corporals, soon found themselves as senior sargeants and the like, with many of the senior sargeants promoted to the officer corps as lts. Actual officers could almost be guaranteeed a promotion of 2-3 steps, depending upon their training and speciality, even before they went into battle.
The policy was that once the need for the huge military was finished, they would be riffed down to their previous ranks, possibly higher due to battlefield heroism, etc.. This is what happened to Custer after the Civil War, reduced from a general to a lt colonel.
shadowdragon
SOC-12
you could also look at it this way-- ranks 1 to 6 in char gen covers multiple ranks in between, to represent multiple promotions per term. I.e. say you get promoted from rank 1 to rank 2 in 4 years. you could very easily claim the pc got promoted 3 or even 4 times considering the ranks skip intermediate levels.
for instance, a naval officers career:
starts at O1 for term 1 (Ensign)
IRW O2 is lieutenant, junior grade but in T20 is full lieutenant, O3 IRW, so if your pc musters out after 1 term without promotion, you could logically decide he didn't reach the "official" rank for 2 terms but very well could have been promoted 1 level, from ensign to Lt. JG.
the skipped ranks are:
for enlisted- E2, E4, E5 (or E4, E6, or E5, E6),and E9 (MCPON)
For officer, all WO ranks WO2-WO5
O2, O7, O8, O9
so for any term without a promotion roll success, you could, if applicable, promote to a skipped level and the pc gets no bennies except he is closer to the next "OFFICIAL" rank, maybe a +1 or +2 to promotion roll next term.
for a more complete understanding, just wiki "navy"
for instance, a naval officers career:
starts at O1 for term 1 (Ensign)
IRW O2 is lieutenant, junior grade but in T20 is full lieutenant, O3 IRW, so if your pc musters out after 1 term without promotion, you could logically decide he didn't reach the "official" rank for 2 terms but very well could have been promoted 1 level, from ensign to Lt. JG.
the skipped ranks are:
for enlisted- E2, E4, E5 (or E4, E6, or E5, E6),and E9 (MCPON)
For officer, all WO ranks WO2-WO5
O2, O7, O8, O9
so for any term without a promotion roll success, you could, if applicable, promote to a skipped level and the pc gets no bennies except he is closer to the next "OFFICIAL" rank, maybe a +1 or +2 to promotion roll next term.
for a more complete understanding, just wiki "navy"
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