Races in the Imperial Navy

[aramis]

I'm sure I wouldn't what a crew with "negative DMs" for every task aboard ship...:nonono:

A simple solution might be have "all Aslan" ships, squadrons, etc. (Also, this might explain 500ICr wrenches and screwdrivers...):rofl:

Once you get to computer linked, dynamic linked, and holodynamic linked panels, it's a non-issue. You log into your station, and it displays your configuration for you.

Things that can't be readily handled with computer linked - like attitude and translational controllers, probably have easily swapped units - as in, use your hatch tool, and a screwdriver, to swap it out.

Remember:
Computer Linked: ST TOS type - physical button arrays whose function can be reprogrammed.
Dynamic Linked: TNG style flat panel touch screens
Holodyanmic linked: The console "creates" a 3-D tactile interface up to 10cm off the console. (~4")

Most of the ship will be a non-issue, except for the personal tools needed to work on it.

Toilets, keyboards, and door-handles can be manufactured to be multi-species compatible.

Which leaves beds and chairs. Properly designed, the chairs should be able to handle the tails of Aslan and Vargr; Bwaps would need to swap chairs for comfort purposes, but might be able to belly-down on standard ones in reclining mode.

Droyne and Ael Yael need stools - for acceleration couches, they probably belly-down as well.

And Tursiops Galactis needs a bathtub. Or zero-G and damp.

 

[Vladika]

Once you get to computer linked, dynamic linked, and holodynamic linked panels, it's a non-issue. You log into your station, and it displays your configuration for you.

Things that can't be readily handled with computer linked - like attitude and translational controllers, probably have easily swapped units - as in, use your hatch tool, and a screwdriver, to swap it out.

Remember:
Computer Linked: ST TOS type - physical button arrays whose function can be reprogrammed.
Dynamic Linked: TNG style flat panel touch screens
Holodyanmic linked: The console "creates" a 3-D tactile interface up to 10cm off the console. (~4")

Most of the ship will be a non-issue, except for the personal tools needed to work on it.

Toilets, keyboards, and door-handles can be manufactured to be multi-species compatible.

Which leaves beds and chairs. Properly designed, the chairs should be able to handle the tails of Aslan and Vargr; Bwaps would need to swap chairs for comfort purposes, but might be able to belly-down on standard ones in reclining mode.

Droyne and Ael Yael need stools - for acceleration couches, they probably belly-down as well.

And Tursiops Galactis needs a bathtub. Or zero-G and damp.

So why have 1 engineer per 100dt HG2, or 35dt CT, of drives if all that's needed are some "universal" button pushers?

Seemingly those tool kits, mechanical, electrical, carpenter, etc must serve more purpose than being ballast in the ships locker? If they aren't needed to repair anything, why have them? And now we are back to the original problem about Aslan not able to use human tools effectively.

So, no mixed races in the black gang? Or double up on tools? Come on now, it either works or it doesn't.

BTW, I want a real TOILET, not a litter box.

 

[aramis]

So why have 1 engineer per 100dt HG2, or 35dt CT, of drives if all that's needed are some "universal" button pushers?

Seemingly those tool kits, mechanical, electrical, carpenter, etc must serve more purpose than being ballast in the ships locker? If they aren't needed to repair anything, why have them? And now we are back to the original problem about Aslan not able to use human tools effectively.

So, no mixed races in the black gang? Or double up on tools? Come on now, it either works or it doesn't.

Most engineers are going to have their own tools for the smaller hand tools. The bigger ones are generally not optimized grips anyway, or will have a universal grip attachment, so the engineer can attach his species appropriate grips. But really, as with how the USN describes Nuclear Power Plant Engineering: it's mostly knowing what the gauges mean, knowing what buttons to push, switches to flip, and dials to crank when a given gauge is out of the green.

CT and MT ships, as portrayed in the DGP materials and some of the GDW ones (and not just the DGP written ones - which are CT Bk 8 and MT) are roughly comparable to Star Trek TNG in terms of controls - the duty engineer rarely is using his tools to do his job. But he has his own set of tools - either issued or owned. A set of spanners, a set of drivers, a set of cutters, a suitable multimeter, a soldering gun. It's not like the drive allotment won't have space for a 10kg mechanical tool kit per required engineer.

There is no equivalent of the old Black Gang - there's no manual shoveling*, and there is little manual lubrication. It's mostly remote toggles and fluid and power flow monitoring, and pulling and replacing modular filters and fluids packs. There are manual disconnects, plumbing valves, and such, but most of the manual ones are backups and bypasses of the computer controlled ones.

In other words, most of the time, field maintenance is checking levels and changing filters - hand tool stuff.

And if the engineer needs to get hands-on with the innards of the plant, I certainly wouldn't be willing to be flying on that ship for long.

-=-=-=-=-
*Well, there might be, but if there is, things have already gone from "bad" to well past "worse," because you're shoveling ice into the scoops.

 

[Vladika]

Most engineers are going to have their own tools for the smaller hand tools. The bigger ones are generally not optimized grips anyway, or will have a universal grip attachment, so the engineer can attach his species appropriate grips. But really, as with how the USN describes Nuclear Power Plant Engineering: it's mostly knowing what the gauges mean, knowing what buttons to push, switches to flip, and dials to crank when a given gauge is out of the green.

CT and MT ships, as portrayed in the DGP materials and some of the GDW ones (and not just the DGP written ones - which are CT Bk 8 and MT) are roughly comparable to Star Trek TNG in terms of controls - the duty engineer rarely is using his tools to do his job. But he has his own set of tools - either issued or owned. A set of spanners, a set of drivers, a set of cutters, a suitable multimeter, a soldering gun. It's not like the drive allotment won't have space for a 10kg mechanical tool kit per required engineer.

There is no equivalent of the old Black Gang - there's no manual shoveling*, and there is little manual lubrication. It's mostly remote toggles and fluid and power flow monitoring, and pulling and replacing modular filters and fluids packs. There are manual disconnects, plumbing valves, and such, but most of the manual ones are backups and bypasses of the computer controlled ones.

In other words, most of the time, field maintenance is checking levels and changing filters - hand tool stuff.

And if the engineer needs to get hands-on with the innards of the plant, I certainly wouldn't be willing to be flying on that ship for long.

-=-=-=-=-
*Well, there might be, but if there is, things have already gone from "bad" to well past "worse," because you're shoveling ice into the scoops.

Black Gang is simply a modern euphemism for the Engineering Department.

US Navy description of the reactor is certainly correct but they left out the number of pumps, compressors, electric panels, transformers, generators, etc. Add in a larger ships life support systems and figure evaporators and condensers, hot water tanks, toilets and other plumbing, hundreds to thousands of valves, lubricating oil pumps, filters, fuel recovery tanks and refining.

Stranded ship, life support failing, two week turnaround minimum for a Salvage and Rescue ship to get there.

Fuel purification plants, some serious high pressure fuel pumps, scoops, fuel tank cooling coils, refrigerators, freezers and associated galley equipment and fixtures.

Stateroom doors sticking, Iris valve failure, Airlock not cycling correctly, lighting failure. A lowberth equipment failure. Ruptured pipe or fitting (Air, water or Hydrogen).

Machine shops for fabricating broken parts, 3d printers, swapping out minor sub assemblages, diagnostic and repair.

Electric switches, relays, circuit breakers, wiring repair.

This list could go on.

But, yeah, I can see that the Starship Engineers of the future won't have anything to do but try to stay awake on duty hours.

God help them if there is any combat damage needing damage control beyond a little duct tape? But then again, looking at the damage tables, nothing REALLY serious is going to go wrong right? I mean there's no TV, DVD or Beer Fridge damage possible. As long as we get the Sports Channel?

ANYTHING, and I do mean ANYTHING, that goes wrong weeks, months and light years away from the AAA towing service and Goobers Garage has got to be fixed, or fabricated, by somebody, Engineers or Service Crew.

BTW, if Naval reactors are so simple to operate, doesn't it figure that a computer could make better, faster decisions? Why do they have all those engineers?

 

[Drakon]

BTW, if Naval reactors are so simple to operate, doesn't it figure that a computer could make better, faster decisions? Why do they have all those engineers?

Because Uncle Hymie wanted it that way. He hated automation, and simulation, he felt it bred a nasty mindset toward the seriousness of the situation.

Also humans are better adapted at handling unexpected situations than computers. People can think for themselves, especially with a complete understanding of the systems being worked on. Computers can follow programs, and it is difficult to account for every possible failure mode or combination of failure modes.

Any technology has its limitations and aramis' statement concerning "mostly knowing what the gauges mean, knowing what buttons to push, switches to flip, and dials to crank when a given gauge is out of the green." is a bit understated, but hardly inaccurate. Knowing what the gauges mean entails a great deal of both theoretical and practical knowledge. Understanding why the gauge went red or what to do when that dial goes green, how the systems interact is quite an endevour.

 

[SpaceBadger]

But, yeah, I can see that the Starship Engineers of the future won't have anything to do but try to stay awake on duty hours.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Any technology has its limitations and aramis' statement concerning "mostly knowing what the gauges mean, knowing what buttons to push, switches to flip, and dials to crank when a given gauge is out of the green." is a bit understated, but hardly inaccurate. Knowing what the gauges mean entails a great deal of both theoretical and practical knowledge. Understanding why the gauge went red or what to do when that dial goes green, how the systems interact is quite an endevour.

Old joke ends with this punchline:

Final Invoice

Drawing X with chalk ----------------- $5.00

Knowing where to draw X ----- $19,995.00
============================
Total ------------------------------$20,000.00

 

[aramis]

Black Gang is simply a modern euphemism for the Engineering Department.

US Navy description of the reactor is certainly correct but they left out the number of pumps, compressors, electric panels, transformers, generators, etc. Add in a larger ships life support systems and figure evaporators and condensers, hot water tanks, toilets and other plumbing, hundreds to thousands of valves, lubricating oil pumps, filters, fuel recovery tanks and refining.

Stranded ship, life support failing, two week turnaround minimum for a Salvage and Rescue ship to get there.

Fuel purification plants, some serious high pressure fuel pumps, scoops, fuel tank cooling coils, refrigerators, freezers and associated galley equipment and fixtures.

Stateroom doors sticking, Iris valve failure, Airlock not cycling correctly, lighting failure. A lowberth equipment failure. Ruptured pipe or fitting (Air, water or Hydrogen).

Machine shops for fabricating broken parts, 3d printers, swapping out minor sub assemblages, diagnostic and repair.

Electric switches, relays, circuit breakers, wiring repair.

This list could go on.

But, yeah, I can see that the Starship Engineers of the future won't have anything to do but try to stay awake on duty hours.

God help them if there is any combat damage needing damage control beyond a little duct tape? But then again, looking at the damage tables, nothing REALLY serious is going to go wrong right? I mean there's no TV, DVD or Beer Fridge damage possible. As long as we get the Sports Channel?

ANYTHING, and I do mean ANYTHING, that goes wrong weeks, months and light years away from the AAA towing service and Goobers Garage has got to be fixed, or fabricated, by somebody, Engineers or Service Crew.

BTW, if Naval reactors are so simple to operate, doesn't it figure that a computer could make better, faster decisions? Why do they have all those engineers?

Since Bk5 came out, the doors aren't the engineers' problem - they're the maintenance crew's. It's going to look a lot more like a modern civilian power plant than even a current USN engineering space. And canonically, it tends to as well. The crewing is 1 man per 100Td of Drive Installation*, and 1 man for maintenance tasks per 2333 cubic meters of hull...

Can you imagine operating an OH Perry Class FFG with a mere 5 maintenance guys, A chief Engineer plus a single rating in the engine room? That's about what the HG crew rates would give, and well less than the total; IIRC, it's less than the typical Engineering Department watch size. (Her bounding box is about 2700Td - she's at best half that in enclosed volume, and masses a mere 4100 Long... She's got about 32MW of gas turbine - about 4Td of PP, per striker... and probably 10Td of drives. She certainly doesn't hit the 101Td combined PP+Proulsion needed to trigger a second engineering rating.)

The Engineers can't be the grease-monkey types of yesteryear when you can get a 4100 ton combattant down to a total crew of about 20.. of whom a large chunk are BMs, and another large chunk are GMs.

Traveller has some strong built-in assumptions of automation. This is explicitly called out in FF&S1... but a comparison to naval vessels is quite illuminating as well.

And a comparison to Classic Trek as well - the TOS Enterprise is about 19KTd - and a crew of 435.
A 30KTd Light Cruiser in Classic Traveller is 231 crew - of which 20 are marines. 50% bigger and half the crew of the TOS Enterprise.
And about 20x the size of the OHP Class, with about 1.2x the total crew.


-=-=-=-=-
*of which, the actual drive is about half, if the CT rule of thumb is applied.

 

[Drakon]

Old joke ends with this punchline:

Final Invoice

Drawing X with chalk ----------------- $5.00

Knowing where to draw X ----- $19,995.00
============================
Total ------------------------------$20,000.00

In one of my past jobs, we had a piece of equipment with mechanical relays. Sometimes the relays would get stuck, and we had to "thump" the gear.

Our boss used to remind us that we are not getting paid to whack the equipment, but knowing when and where to whack it.