Question about revised crew rules

[AndreaV]

Okay now changing HGS to allow for the revised crew rules from JTAS 14 and the CT errata (its actually going to become the default).

Now coding it is simple (iCrew / (eTonnage / 1000)). But my question is what do I report on the USP? the number of crew sections or the number of crew in each section?

 

[aramis]

Okay now changing HGS to allow for the revised crew rules from JTAS 14 and the CT errata (its actually going to become the default).

Now coding it is simple (iCrew / (eTonnage / 1000)). But my question is what do I report on the USP? the number of crew sections or the number of crew in each section?

Isn't total crew listed separately in the USP?
(Yes, my copy says it is.)

And the crew USP is the total crew, on all the examples I've seen...

 

[Matt123]

Ok, some clarification may be required here. I'm assuming Andrew is talking about the USP stat line, not the full listing.

If I'm right on what Andrew is asking, the Stat line single letter code for crew, should be the number of crew sections. 9 = 9 Crew Sections. C = 12 Crew Sections.

Keep in mind the errata (0.05) now stats that the number of crew sections are based on Tonnage/1000. The Tigress (an extreme example) has 500 crew sections of 9 crew each. Listed in the USP stat line for crew is "Z" and below in the notes "Z = 500".

This is in contrast to pre-errata when the Tigress crew sections = 4. (& listed as such in the USP stat line)

 

[AndreaV]

Ok, some clarification may be required here. I'm assuming Andrew is talking about the USP stat line, not the full listing.

If I'm right on what Andrew is asking, the Stat line single letter code for crew, should be the number of crew sections. 9 = 9 Crew Sections. C = 12 Crew Sections.

Keep in mind the errata (0.05) now stats that the number of crew sections are based on Tonnage/1000. The Tigress (an extreme example) has 500 crew sections of 9 crew each. Listed in the USP stat line for crew is "Z" and below in the notes "Z = 500".

This is in contrast to pre-errata when the Tigress crew sections = 4. (& listed as such in the USP stat line)

Yep that's it. The problem of leaving the number of crew sections on the USP is that every single large ship ends up with crew code Z effectively moving it to the details section.

So my solution is going to be to leave the crew code on the first line of the USP as being the number in each section and put the number of sections in the details (and after generating over 100 USP's I can guarantee that's pretty much where it ends up anyway with substitution)

 

[Matt123]

Ahh, found it. Here's the previous discussion on it.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=24192

I can't fault your logic & agree entirely that having "Z" for crew in most BB & CV designs (anything over 30ktons ?) is a little "odd". But I think it will just add to the confusion and lead people to treat the Tigress as having 9 crew sections in combat, not 500 crew sections of 9 crew each.

The real solution is to come up with better errata or get Don to revert back to the original crew rules until a better rule is agreed on.

 

[AndreaV]

Ahh, found it. Here's the previous discussion on it.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=24192

I can't fault your logic & agree entirely that having "Z" for crew in most BB & CV designs (anything over 30ktons ?) is a little "odd". But I think it will just add to the confusion and lead people to treat the Tigress as having 9 crew sections in combat, not 500 crew sections of 9 crew each.

The real solution is to come up with better errata or get Don to revert back to the original crew rules until a better rule is agreed on.

How does this look? Think it avoids the problem

Luriani Fleet Squadron
Designed by Designer Name
Total Budget: 11,500,000.000
Total Designed Tonnage: 16,000,000.000
Squadron Tech Level: 12

CLASSES
8 x Chaser Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Catcher
Class: Chaser
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356FF-460000-44008-0 MCr 4,439.167 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 72
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 101 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 5 of 15 Fuel: 1,620 EP: 270 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 44.392   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,551.334

40 x Cthonian Class Destroyers

Ship: Crocodile
Class: Cthonian
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356FJ-450000-40008-0 MCr 3,859.819 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 69
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 143 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,440 EP: 240 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 38.598   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,087.855

24 x Gaaskii Class Light Cruisers

Ship: Mmar
Class: Gaaskii
Type: Light Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-K1356FJ-471106-66808-0 MCr 19,123.275 19 KTons
Bat Bear             8   1 111 C   Crew: 330
Bat                  8   1 111 C   TL: 12

Cargo: 340 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 19 of 18 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 6,840 EP: 1,140 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 19 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 191.233   Cost in Quantity: MCr 15,298.620

80 x Edtoenu Class Battleriders

Ship: Leemm
Class: Edtoenu
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1058FE-B91106-884K9-0 MCr 67,506.298 45 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 11116   Crew: 619
Bat                  L   6 11118   TL: 12

Cargo: 123 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 45 of 14 Fuel: 3,600 EP: 3,600 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 45 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 675.063   Cost in Quantity: MCr 54,005.038

80 x Shiryna Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Rofil
Class: Shiryna
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FC-091100-88002-0 MCr 51,270.050 96.9 KTons
Bat Bear             Y     11  6   Crew: 1071
Bat                  Z     11  9   TL: 12

Cargo: 23 Crew Sections: 97 of 12 Fuel: 31,977.000 EP: 2,907 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 97 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 45000T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: Y = 70 Z = 94

Architects Fee: MCr 512.701   Cost in Quantity: MCr 41,016.040

8 x Ainnil Class Battleriders

Ship: Faasib
Class: Ainnil
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1059FE-C91106-88Q09-0 MCr 59,647.059 40.5 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 111 6   Crew: 562
Bat                  L   6 111 8   TL: 12

Cargo: 185 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 41 of 14 Fuel: 3,645.000 EP: 3,645 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 40 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 596.471   Cost in Quantity: MCr 47,717.647

8 x Katherin Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Hadtal
Class: Katherin
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FC-091100-88002-0 MCr 46,328.550 87.5 KTons
Bat Bear             Y     11  3   Crew: 1011
Bat                  Z     11  5   TL: 12

Cargo: 37 Crew Sections: 88 of 12 Fuel: 28,875.000 EP: 2,625 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 88 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 40500T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: Y = 63 Z = 85

Architects Fee: MCr 463.286   Cost in Quantity: MCr 37,062.840

4 x Buyaki Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Brilliant
Class: Buyaki
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267FF-660000-44008-0 MCr 4,983.653 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 74
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 109 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 5 of 15 Fuel: 1,215 EP: 315 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 49.837   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,986.923

20 x Brimstone Class Destroyers

Ship: Blade
Class: Brimstone
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267FJ-650000-40008-0 MCr 4,343.860 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 71
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 150 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,080 EP: 280 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 43.439   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,475.088

24 x Despi Corig Class Heavy Cruisers

Ship: Kamees Jordan
Class: Despi Corig
Type: Heavy Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-N1257FE-591106-884D9-0 MCr 56,270.907 48 KTons
Bat Bear             N   3 11118   Crew: 625
Bat                  Z   4 1111A   TL: 12

Cargo: 222 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 48 of 14 Fuel: 12,960 EP: 3,360 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 48 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 26

Architects Fee: MCr 562.709   Cost in Quantity: MCr 45,016.725

16 x Sentdtir Class Battleships

Ship: Lighting
Class: Sentdtir
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FK-491106-888K9-0 MCr 82,918.314 70 KTons
Bat Bear             Y   4 1111B   Crew: 1294
Bat                  Z   5 1111E   TL: 12

Cargo: 60 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 70 of 19 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 18,900 EP: 4,900 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 70 Marines: 590
Craft: 5 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Y = 32 Z = 40

Architects Fee: MCr 829.183   Cost in Quantity: MCr 66,334.651

4 x Frier Class Battleships

Ship: Jackson
Class: Frier
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FK-591106-88Q09-0 MCr 72,011.312 65.5 KTons
Bat Bear             Y   6 111 C   Crew: 1244
Bat                  Z   8 111 F   TL: 12

Cargo: 375 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 66 of 19 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 17,685 EP: 4,585 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 66 Marines: 590 Drop Capsules: 590
Craft: 10 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Y = 28 Z = 36

Architects Fee: MCr 720.113   Cost in Quantity: MCr 57,609.050

Squadron Cost: MCt 11,351,203.838
Squadron Tonnage: 15,660,000.000 Td
Squadron Maintaince Cost: MCr 1,125,666.339
Percentage Under Tech Level 12: 0.000%
Total Crew: 201,436
Required Pilots: 852
Required Ships Boat Pilots: 0
Marines: 71,512
Ships Troops: 15,696
Total Fuel Tankage: 4,051,680.000 Td
Total Drop Tankage: 445,600.000 Td
Percentage Gas Giant Refueling Capable: 31.160%
Percentage Ocean Refueling Capable: 31.160%
Percentage Ocean Refueling Capable (Under 5,000 Td): 2.395%

 

[Matt123]

On 29/09/2011 9:45 p.m., Andrew wrote:
> > I can repost these thoughts on COTI if you like. There are some die hard
> > opinions on there & I wouldn't mind getting people to put on their
> > thinking caps again. I just spotted the ct-starships post first
> >
>
> How does this look?
>
> Ship: Emerald
>
> USP
> CL-H6156DJ-670000-52308-0 MCr 8,012.602 8 KTons
> Bat Bear 6 111 4 Crew: 139
> Bat 6 111 4 TL: 10
>
> Cargo: 105 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 8, Each of 18 Fuel: 2,080 EP:
> 480 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 Marines: 35 Drop Capsules: 35
> Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats, 12 x 10T Lifeboats
> Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
> Backups: 1 x Model/4fib Computer 1 x Bridge
>
> Architects Fee: MCr 80.126 Cost in Quantity: MCr 6,410.082

We are cross-posting now, lol. I've just cut & paste my ct-starships response into COTI, forgive the formatting...

Your logic is good, but according to HG, this ship has (J=) 18 crew factors to reduce in combat (eg: HG damage notes pg49) as you read crew factors off the stat line (HG pg35-36, 50-52), which obviously contradicts with the ships notes which talks about crew sections.

To avoid confusion you would now need to add an explanation on each ship listing to the effect that the stat line now contains the number of crew in each section (which is information not used in combat) and the Crew Factor needed in combat resolution is now listed as Crew Sections in the notes. Of course changing the USP line is in itself an un-official piece of errata...

I fully understand your logic, its the interesting interpretations infrequent players will have that is my concern.

As I put earlier, the problem is that the errata is poorly considered and until a better solution is agreed upon, I think Don should revert back to the original. Meantime, bizarre though the result will look, IMO the stat line should have the crew factor represented to stay consistent with the rest of the rule books.

 

[AndreaV]

We are cross-posting now, lol. I've just cut & paste my ct-starships response into COTI, forgive the formatting...

Your logic is good, but according to HG, this ship has (J=) 18 crew factors to reduce in combat (eg: HG damage notes pg49) as you read crew factors off the stat line (HG pg35-36, 50-52), which obviously contradicts with the ships notes which talks about crew sections.

To avoid confusion you would now need to add an explanation on each ship listing to the effect that the stat line now contains the number of crew in each section (which is information not used in combat) and the Crew Factor needed in combat resolution is now listed as Crew Sections in the notes. Of course changing the USP line is in itself an un-official piece of errata...

I fully understand your logic, its the interesting interpretations infrequent players will have that is my concern.

As I put earlier, the problem is that the errata is poorly considered and until a better solution is agreed upon, I think Don should revert back to the original. Meantime, bizarre though the result will look, IMO the stat line should have the crew factor represented to stay consistent with the rest of the rule books.

Yep cross posting bad Best to stick to one thread, and there are probably more heads to butt together here...

The problem of leaving the number of sections on the USP is that because its almost always Z, it essentially isn't there at all, you may as well put @ or & or * or ?. So to all intents and purposes its not there anyway, the crew code simply becomes a dead space.

I do see your concern about inexperienced players, but they will need an explanation anyway regardless.

This is how it looks with the number of sections on the USP

Luriani Fleet Squadron
Designed by Designer Name
Total Budget: 11,500,000.000
Total Designed Tonnage: 16,000,000.000
Squadron Tech Level: 12

CLASSES
8 x Chaser Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Catcher
Class: Chaser
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356F5-460000-44008-0 MCr 4,439.167 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 72
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 101 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 5 of 15 Fuel: 1,620 EP: 270 Agility: 5
 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 44.392   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,551.334

40 x Cthonian Class Destroyers

Ship: Crocodile
Class: Cthonian
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356F4-450000-40008-0 MCr 3,859.819 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 69
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 143 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,440 EP: 240 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 38.598   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,087.855

24 x Gaaskii Class Light Cruisers

Ship: Mmar
Class: Gaaskii
Type: Light Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-K1356FK-471106-66808-0 MCr 19,123.275 19 KTons
Bat Bear             8   1 111 C   Crew: 330
Bat                  8   1 111 C   TL: 12

Cargo: 340 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 19 of 18 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 6,840 EP: 1,140 
Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 19 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 191.233   Cost in Quantity: MCr 15,298.620

80 x Edtoenu Class Battleriders

Ship: Leemm
Class: Edtoenu
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1058FZ-B91106-884K9-0 MCr 67,506.298 45 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 11116   Crew: 619
Bat                  L   6 11118   TL: 12

Cargo: 123 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 45 of 14 Fuel: 3,600 EP: 3,600 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 45 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 45

Architects Fee: MCr 675.063   Cost in Quantity: MCr 54,005.038

80 x Shiryna Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Rofil
Class: Shiryna
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FZ-091100-88002-0 MCr 51,270.050 96.9 KTons
Bat Bear             X     11  6   Crew: 1071
Bat                  Y     11  9   TL: 12

Cargo: 23 Crew Sections: 97 of 12 Fuel: 31,977.000 EP: 2,907 Agility: 1 
Shipboard Security Detail: 97 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 45000T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: X = 70 Y = 94 Z = 97

Architects Fee: MCr 512.701   Cost in Quantity: MCr 41,016.040

8 x Ainnil Class Battleriders

Ship: Faasib
Class: Ainnil
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1059FZ-C91106-88Q09-0 MCr 59,647.059 40.5 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 111 6   Crew: 562
Bat                  L   6 111 8   TL: 12

Cargo: 185 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 41 of 14 Fuel: 3,645.000 EP: 3,645 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 40 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 41

Architects Fee: MCr 596.471   Cost in Quantity: MCr 47,717.647

8 x Katherin Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Hadtal
Class: Katherin
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FZ-091100-88002-0 MCr 46,328.550 87.5 KTons
Bat Bear             X     11  3   Crew: 1011
Bat                  Y     11  5   TL: 12

Cargo: 37 Crew Sections: 88 of 12 Fuel: 28,875.000 EP: 2,625 Agility: 1 
Shipboard Security Detail: 88 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 40500T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: X = 63 Y = 85 Z = 88

Architects Fee: MCr 463.286   Cost in Quantity: MCr 37,062.840

4 x Buyaki Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Brilliant
Class: Buyaki
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267F5-660000-44008-0 MCr 4,983.653 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 74
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 109 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 5 of 15 Fuel: 1,215 EP: 315 Agility: 6 
Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 49.837   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,986.923

20 x Brimstone Class Destroyers

Ship: Blade
Class: Brimstone
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267F4-650000-40008-0 MCr 4,343.860 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 71
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 150 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,080 EP: 280 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 
Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 43.439   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,475.088

24 x Despi Corig Class Heavy Cruisers

Ship: Kamees Jordan
Class: Despi Corig
Type: Heavy Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-N1257FZ-591106-884D9-0 MCr 56,270.907 48 KTons
Bat Bear             N   3 11118   Crew: 625
Bat                  Y   4 1111A   TL: 12

Cargo: 222 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 48 of 14 Fuel: 12,960 EP: 3,360 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 48 Marines: 141 Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Y = 26 Z = 48

Architects Fee: MCr 562.709   Cost in Quantity: MCr 45,016.725

16 x Sentdtir Class Battleships

Ship: Lighting
Class: Sentdtir
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FZ-491106-888K9-0 MCr 82,918.314 70 KTons
Bat Bear             X   4 1111B   Crew: 1294
Bat                  Y   5 1111E   TL: 12

Cargo: 60 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 70 of 19 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 18,900 EP: 4,900 
Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 70 Marines: 590
Craft: 5 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: X = 32 Y = 40 Z = 70

Architects Fee: MCr 829.183   Cost in Quantity: MCr 66,334.651

4 x Frier Class Battleships

Ship: Jackson
Class: Frier
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FZ-591106-88Q09-0 MCr 72,011.312 65.5 KTons
Bat Bear             X   6 111 C   Crew: 1244
Bat                  Y   8 111 F   TL: 12

Cargo: 375 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 66 of 19 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 17,685 EP: 4,585 
Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 66 Marines: 590 Drop Capsules: 590
Craft: 10 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: X = 28 Y = 36 Z = 66

Architects Fee: MCr 720.113   Cost in Quantity: MCr 57,609.050

Squadron Cost: MCt 11,351,203.838
Squadron Tonnage: 15,660,000.000 Td
Squadron Maintaince Cost: MCr 1,125,666.339
Percentage Under Tech Level 12: 0.000%
Total Crew: 201,436
Required Pilots: 852
Required Ships Boat Pilots: 0
Marines: 71,512
Ships Troops: 15,696
Total Fuel Tankage: 4,051,680.000 Td
Total Drop Tankage: 445,600.000 Td
Percentage Gas Giant Refueling Capable: 31.160%
Percentage Ocean Refueling Capable: 31.160%
Percentage Ocean Refueling Capable (Under 5,000 Td): 2.395%

 

[Matt123]

Yep cross posting bad Best to stick to one thread, and there are probably more heads to butt together here...

The problem of leaving the number of sections on the USP is that because its almost always Z, it essentially isn't there at all, you may as well put @ or & or * or ?. So to all intents and purposes its not there anyway, the crew code simply becomes a dead space.

I do see your concern about inexperienced players, but they will need an explanation anyway regardless.

This is how it looks with the number of sections on the USP

Ship: Rofil
Class: Shiryna
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FZ-091100-88002-0 MCr 51,270.050 96.9 KTons
Bat Bear             X     11  6   Crew: 1071
Bat                  Y     11  9   TL: 12

Cargo: 23 Crew Sections: 97 of 12 Fuel: 31,977.000 EP: 2,907 Agility: 1 
Shipboard Security Detail: 97 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 45000T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: X = 70 Y = 94 Z = 97

At this point I can't really add any more. I would prefer to see you stick with this. It is consistent with the rest of the rules.

Besides I'm hopeful we can come up with a better errata on how to establish crew sections/factors/USP. If we do, this format will adapt better in the long term.

 

[AndreaV]

At this point I can't really add any more. I would prefer to see you stick with this. It is consistent with the rest of the rules.

Besides I'm hopeful we can come up with a better errata on how to establish crew sections/factors/USP. If we do, this format will adapt better in the long term.

I do actually agree that the real problem is the rule is broken. Just keeping it in the USP from a coding PoV is bad because it effectively reduces the values I have for substitutions from 6 to 5, and this can break the program very quickly.

However, I may have a solution. This was generated using sections determined by (eTonnage / (TravToInt(CalcSizeCode) * 100))

Translated into non-pascal. divide the tonnage by (hull size code * 100)

CLASSES
8 x Chaser Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Catcher
Class: Chaser
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356F4-460000-44008-0 MCr 4,439.167 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 72
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 101 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,620 EP: 270
Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 
Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 44.392   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,551.334

40 x Cthonian Class Destroyers

Ship: Crocodile
Class: Cthonian
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6356F4-450000-40008-0 MCr 3,859.819 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 69
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 143 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,440 EP: 240 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 
Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 38.598   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,087.855

24 x Gaaskii Class Light Cruisers

Ship: Mmar
Class: Gaaskii
Type: Light Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-K1356FA-471106-66808-0 MCr 19,123.275 19 KTons
Bat Bear             8   1 111 C   Crew: 330
Bat                  8   1 111 C   TL: 12

Cargo: 340 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 10 of 33 Frozen Watch (x2) 
Fuel: 6,840 EP: 1,140 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 19 Marines: 141 
Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 191.233   Cost in Quantity: MCr 15,298.620

80 x Edtoenu Class Battleriders

Ship: Leemm
Class: Edtoenu
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1058FM-B91106-884K9-0 MCr 67,506.298 45 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 11116   Crew: 619
Bat                  L   6 11118   TL: 12

Cargo: 123 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 21 of 30 Fuel: 3,600 
EP: 3,600 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 45 Marines: 141 
Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 675.063   Cost in Quantity: MCr 54,005.038

80 x Shiryna Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Rofil
Class: Shiryna
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FZ-091100-88002-0 MCr 51,270.050 96.9 KTons
Bat Bear             X     11  6   Crew: 1071
Bat                  Y     11  9   TL: 12

Cargo: 23 Crew Sections: 41 of 27 Fuel: 31,977.000 EP: 2,907 Agility: 1 
Shipboard Security Detail: 97 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 45000T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: X = 70 Y = 94 Z = 41

Architects Fee: MCr 512.701   Cost in Quantity: MCr 41,016.040

8 x Ainnil Class Battleriders

Ship: Faasib
Class: Ainnil
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BR-N1059FK-C91106-88Q09-0 MCr 59,647.059 40.5 KTons
Bat Bear             H   5 111 6   Crew: 562
Bat                  L   6 111 8   TL: 12

Cargo: 185 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 19 of 30 Fuel: 3,645.000 
EP: 3,645 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 40 Marines: 141 
Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 596.471   Cost in Quantity: MCr 47,717.647

8 x Katherin Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Hadtal
Class: Katherin
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         AF-Q7313FZ-091100-88002-0 MCr 46,328.550 87.5 KTons
Bat Bear             X     11  3   Crew: 1011
Bat                  Y     11  5   TL: 12

Cargo: 37 Crew Sections: 37 of 28 Fuel: 28,875.000 EP: 2,625 Agility: 1 
Shipboard Security Detail: 88 Marines: 449
Craft: 1 x 40500T Rider, 5 x 30T Boats
Substitutions: X = 63 Y = 85 Z = 37

Architects Fee: MCr 463.286   Cost in Quantity: MCr 37,062.840

4 x Buyaki Class Destroyer Leaders

Ship: Brilliant
Class: Buyaki
Type: Destroyer Leader
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267F4-660000-44008-0 MCr 4,983.653 4.5 KTons
Bat Bear             4     11  3   Crew: 74
Bat                  4     11  3   TL: 12

Cargo: 109 Passengers: 10 Crew Sections: 4 of 19 Fuel: 1,215 EP: 315 
Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 2 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 49.837   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,986.923

20 x Brimstone Class Destroyers

Ship: Blade
Class: Brimstone
Type: Destroyer
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         DD-D6267F4-650000-40008-0 MCr 4,343.860 4 KTons
Bat Bear             4     1   3   Crew: 71
Bat                  4     1   3   TL: 12

Cargo: 150 Crew Sections: 4 of 18 Fuel: 1,080 EP: 280 Agility: 6 
Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 14 Drop Capsules: 14
Craft: 3 x 30T Ships Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 43.439   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,475.088

24 x Despi Corig Class Heavy Cruisers

Ship: Kamees Jordan
Class: Despi Corig
Type: Heavy Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         CA-N1257FN-591106-884D9-0 MCr 56,270.907 48 KTons
Bat Bear             N   3 11118   Crew: 625
Bat                  Z   4 1111A   TL: 12

Cargo: 222 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 22 of 29 Fuel: 12,960 
EP: 3,360 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 48 Marines: 141 
Drop Capsules: 141
Craft: 4 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 26

Architects Fee: MCr 562.709   Cost in Quantity: MCr 45,016.725

16 x Sentdtir Class Battleships

Ship: Lighting
Class: Sentdtir
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FZ-491106-888K9-0 MCr 82,918.314 70 KTons
Bat Bear             X   4 1111B   Crew: 1294
Bat                  Y   5 1111E   TL: 12

Cargo: 60 Passengers: 12 Crew Sections: 31 of 42 Frozen Watch (x2) 
Fuel: 18,900 EP: 4,900 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 70 
Marines: 590
Craft: 5 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: X = 32 Y = 40 Z = 31

Architects Fee: MCr 829.183   Cost in Quantity: MCr 66,334.651

4 x Frier Class Battleships

Ship: Jackson
Class: Frier
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance
Tech Level: 12

USP
         BB-P1257FZ-591106-88Q09-0 MCr 72,011.312 65.5 KTons
Bat Bear             X   6 111 C   Crew: 1244
Bat                  Y   8 111 F   TL: 12

Cargo: 375 Passengers: 20 Crew Sections: 29 of 43 Frozen Watch (x2) 
Fuel: 17,685 EP: 4,585 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 66 
Marines: 590 Drop Capsules: 590
Craft: 10 x 30T Boats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: X = 28 Y = 36 Z = 29

Architects Fee: MCr 720.113   Cost in Quantity: MCr 57,609.050

 

[AndreaV]

First off I have to apologize for the length of these reply posts. But I think its useful to see some practical examples. Now using my revised suggestion of (tonnage / (Size code * 100) and plugging in a few published designs we get.

Take a close look at the battleships and battlerider. Here is a VERY interesting side effect. All of a sudden the battleship picks up a huge advantage in that it takes something like 35 crew hits to take out a Plankwell or Kokirrik (and nearly 90 for a Tigress) as against 5 for a Nolikian.

1 x Kinunir Class Battlecruiser

USP
         BC-A2447G2-000510-50103-0 MCr 1,306.991 1.25 KTons
Bat Bear                   2 2 2   Crew: 71
Bat                        2 2 2   TL: 15

Cargo: 72 Crew Sections: 2 of 36 Fuel: 587.500 EP: 87.500 Agility: 0 Marines: 35 Drop Capsules: 5 (plus 10 Ready)
Craft: 1 x 35T Gig, 1 x 7.5T Grav APC
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 13.070   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,045.593

1 x Kokirrak Class Battleship

USP
         BB-S436AJZ-C78949-697T9-0 MCr 166,826.800 200 KTons
Bat Bear             W   D WWM1W   Crew: 1805
Bat                  Y   L YYX1Y   TL: 15

Cargo: 7,055 Crew Sections: 77 of 24 Fuel: 80,000 EP: 20,000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 200
Craft: 10 x 50T Cutterses
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: W = 32 X = 33 Y = 50 Z = 77

Architects Fee: MCr 1,668.268   Cost in Quantity: MCr 133,461.440

1 x Midu Agashaam Class Destroyer

USP
         DD-C246BJ3-052400-50506-0 MCr 2,550.240 3 KTons
Bat Bear             3     4 1 1   Crew: 53
Bat                  3     4 1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 19 Crew Sections: 3 of 18 Fuel: 1,530 EP: 330 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 3
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 25.502   Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,040.192

1 x P. F. Sloan Class Fleet Escort

USP
         FE-E3469J4-502200-90009-0 MCr 3,967.890 5 KTons
Bat Bear                   3   2   Crew: 66
Bat                        3   2   TL: 15

Cargo: 64 Crew Sections: 4 of 17 Fuel: 2,450 EP: 450 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 5
Craft: 3 x 50T Cutterses
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 39.679   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,174.312

1 x Plankwell Class Dreadnaught

USP
         BB-S4458JZ-A74909-967T9-0 MCr 148,772.550 200 KTons
Bat Bear             G   V 69U1T   Crew: 1693
Bat                  R   Y AFX1W   TL: 15

Cargo: 1,333 Crew Sections: 77 of 22 Fuel: 96,000 EP: 16,000 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 200
Craft: 5 x 50T Crafts
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: T = 52 U = 26 V = 32 W = 80 X = 40 Y = 50 Z = 77

Architects Fee: MCr 1,487.726   Cost in Quantity: MCr 119,018.040

1 x Skirmish Class Light Carrier

USP
         CL-L4426JF-190900-76747-8 MCr 15,414.910 29 KTons
Bat Bear             4     9P434   Crew: 465
Bat                  5     AR545   TL: 15

Cargo: 1,627 Crew Sections: 15 of 31 Fuel: 13,340 EP: 1,740 Agility: 2 Shipboard Security Detail: 29
Craft: 80 x 50T Fighters, 1 50T Launch Tube
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 154.149   Cost in Quantity: MCr 12,331.928

1 x System Defense Boat Class System Defense Boat

USP
         SB-2206E91-D00000-40003-0 MCr 315.750 200 Tons
Bat Bear                   1   1   Crew: 6
Bat                        1   1   TL: 15

Cargo: 25 Crew Sections: 1 of 6 Fuel: 28 EP: 28 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 3.158   Cost in Quantity: MCr 252.600

1 x Tigress Class Dreadnaught

USP
         BB-V5368JZ-F97909-967T9-Y MCr 433,781.750 500 KTons
Bat Bear             5   B 5R51V   Crew: 4915
Bat                  A   N AXA1W   TL: 15

Cargo: 7,636 Crew Sections: 173 of 29 Fuel: 190,000 EP: 40,000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 500
Craft: 300 x 50T Heavy Fighterses, 3 50T Launch Tubes
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: V = 215 W = 430 X = 50 Y = 30 Z = 173

Architects Fee: MCr 4,337.817   Cost in Quantity: MCr 347,025.400

1 x Wind Class Strike Carrier

USP
         SC-Q436AJZ-699909-997E9-8 MCr 53,106.910 75 KTons
Bat Bear             7   6 F111Q   Crew: 769
Bat                  A   9 L111Z   TL: 15

Cargo: 6,442 Crew Sections: 32 of 25 Fuel: 30,000 EP: 7,500 Agility: 6 Marines: 40
Craft: 80 x 20T Fighterses, 1 20T Launch Tube
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: Z = 32

Architects Fee: MCr 531.069   Cost in Quantity: MCr 42,485.528

1 x Empress Troyhune Class Monitor

USP
         PX-P9069JN-660600-660J4-2 MCr 19,279.030 50 KTons
Bat Bear             Q     G4 1Q   Crew: 458
Bat                  Z     L5 1Z   TL: 15

Cargo: 8,912 Crew Sections: 22 of 21 Fuel: 4,500 EP: 4,500 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 50
Craft: 20 x 50T Heavy Fighterses, 1 50T Launch Tube
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 192.790   Cost in Quantity: MCr 15,423.224

1 x Lurenti Class Fleet Tender

USP
         AT-V7425JZ-099909-99999-L MCr 230,961.000 500 KTons
Bat Bear             W   4 AAAAV   Crew: 3831
Bat                  Y   9 LLLLX   TL: 15

Cargo: 2,101 Passengers: 30 Crew Sections: 173 of 23 Low: 1100 Fuel: 225,000 EP: 25,000 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 500 Marines: 100
Craft: 7 x 20000T Battleriders, 200 x 50T Fighters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: V = 100 W = 30 X = 200 Y = 60 Z = 173

Architects Fee: MCr 2,309.610   Cost in Quantity: MCr 184,768.800

1 x Mora Class Freighter

USP
         MK-A421821-000000-40003-0 MCr 508.300 1 KTons
Bat Bear                   5   5   Crew: 19
Bat                        5   5   TL: 15

Cargo: 417 Passengers: 15 Crew Sections: 1 of 19 Fuel: 280 EP: 80 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 5.083   Cost in Quantity: MCr 406.640

1 x Nolikian Class Battle Rider

USP
         BR-L106QJA-B39905-299N9-0 MCr 23,351.834 20 KTons
Bat Bear             7   1 B111B   Crew: 306
Bat                  8   1 C121C   TL: 15

Cargo: 11 Crew Sections: 10 of 31 Frozen Watch Fuel: 4,800 EP: 4,800 Agility: 6 Marines: 81 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 3 x 30T Gunboats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Backups: 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 233.518   Cost in Quantity: MCr 18,681.467

 

[BytePro]

Is this for T-5 or errata for CT HG?

Sounds like the code has been redefined and the combat mechanic hasn't been - leaving not enough range to handle the tonnage codes, yet still be a useful combat metric.

Tonnage Code and Crew Code would need to be combined (in some fashion) and Crew Damage tracked with that in mind. I.e. for some Tonnage Code above ? the Crew Code represents some ?? higher value. (Making damage tracked outside the USP.)

Though, as its at the end of the USP, simply increase the size of the code to 2 or more characters would be a simple, non-breaking solution.