Quarantine, containment and not sneezing the natives to death.
- Thread starter Botcho
- Start date
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
The problem, as I see it, is you're asking two different questions. And, they don't have the same answer.
As far as protecting the crew, there could conceivably be little med-nano-bots running around in their bodies, making them essentially immune to whatever the worlds have to throw at them, but they won't be perfect - because you just don't know what's out there.
However, you also address the idea of not introducing our own pathogens to them. This cannot be protected against, except through barrier protocols (environmental suits, etc). Even then, you might have problems: with what do you decon the suits before you exit the ship? That very thing might cause problems to your new friends. Heck, the very act of entering their atmosphere with your ship might bring chemicals/substances/spores/whatever to their world for which they are biologically unprepared. (I'm assuming you would *never* dump your sewage on an alien planet - the biological implications of that are horrendous, besides being un-neighborly and smelly.) You can make some good guesses based on atmosphere composition and general compatibility with terran/vilani biology, but you can't make any assumptions.
Can't use the body's bio-electric field?
A microscopic thermal difference engine? (Mini-Sterling!)
Aren't TL 16 computers possessed of an artificial intelligence?
Can we not trust that intelligence to program nanos in our best interests?
How do we know high-tech programming isn't a collaboration between a programmer and an intelligent machine?
A microscopic thermal difference engine? (Mini-Sterling!)
Aren't TL 16 computers possessed of an artificial intelligence?
Can we not trust that intelligence to program nanos in our best interests?
How do we know high-tech programming isn't a collaboration between a programmer and an intelligent machine?
I think if you're assuming medical nanobots able to provide some protection against unknown foreign agents, then you can extend that to medical nanobots able to rid the body of known agents, ergo eliminating things the crew could spread to others.
The real problem there is: that's not really healthy - you'd have to rid the body of bacteria that are helpful to us but that could have an unanticipated impact in a new environment. Some of those bacteria are rather important to us. They aid in digestion, among other things. In the process of rendering the crew biologically "pure", we'd end up making them feel pretty sick, which is going to make it difficult for them to do their jobs and will likely leave the people they contact thinking they ARE sick.
Thank you Carlobrand,
I see the two problems as closely related, the primary difference being one of scope. Focusing on the the problem of minimizing the impact of our pathogens on a virgin environment: given that we know through careful analysis of the crew what our pathogenic payload is aboard the ship, with a minimum of analysis a sophisticated nannite immuno protocol should be able predict which of our little buddies will survive and or thrive in the new environment. Once identified it should be a routine matter to actively counteract and neutralize these vectors. Not by killing necessary populations with in the crew's bodies but by anticipating the means of transmission and producing neutralizing nannite antibodies. Yes, no?
The conversation about the limiting factor of power sources feeds right into my premis that this can be done in a manner that is, in the end, footprint neutral. For instance, upon arrival part of our initial survey is to allow the ships bio technical nannite swarm to sample and analyse the local flora & fauna for toxicity and potential pathogenic vectors. These nannites will be carefully produced to insure that they can only continue functioning as long as they return to the signature ambiant energy fields found about the ship.
Once initial vectors are identified and addressed deep analysis begins in an attempt to identify complex relationships that can lead to more subtle problems down the road and either head them off if possible or file the problem as one to be aware of and prepare for. As the crew members begin exploring on foot their personal automedics (TL 15-16) act as independent charging nodes for the swarm and continue to collect detailed information about the environment and the entities encountered bringing all the precautions developed by the ship systems along for exploration and bringing back information for further fine tuning and next generation protocols.
This by no means is a perfect system. But given that it is actually a very small percentage of pathogens that can actually jump into alien environments and species such countermeasures can do wonders to prevent transmissions along identifiable vectors. There will also be troubles with production and replication errors, but as with genetics most of these errors would be detrimental to the nannites. Those that survive will rapidly be identified as malignant and the overall system will react appropriately and if the worst should happen and the produced nannites escape the systems self correcting facilities the removal of the power source will render any remaining populations inoperative.
Just my two creds on the matter.
As I pointed out in a previous post, techniques to protect local populations from off-world contacts are available at TL12 (which doesn't mean that they have to be TL12, just that they were invented when the highest TL available was 12. For all we know it could be something as simple as rigorous quarantine measures.)
In any case, TL15-16 nanotechnology is not necessary (although it may be easier and/or even more effective).
Hans
In any case, TL15-16 nanotechnology is not necessary (although it may be easier and/or even more effective).
Hans
I think that this would be true in the beginning of their use but as time (TL) advances, there will be programing to cover what is good to keep and what to attack.
I would say that 2 TL's after their use, this would not be an issue any more, and as long as there are medical updates, then the good things are kept and the bad things are attacked.
Dave Chase
Thank you Dave,
Given everyone's fantastic input I think I have what I want. At TL12 quarantine and containment protocols and technology became sufficiently advanced to make first contacts less of a pathogenic "craps shoot" for the contact team and the hosting population.
By TL 14 many of the functions of the containment technologies, plastic barriers, temporary airlocks, bio and viral atmo scrubbers, chem washes, heavy handed antibiotic treatments, became increasingly obsolete in the face of advances in bio technical medical nannites being used to mange the micro fauna a flora of a contained environment. The danger of rouge nano swarms running amok in hospitable alien environments was addressed by strict production protocols setting the nanites energy requirements to a specific ships ambient fields.
TL 15-16 brings advances in nanite swarms uses for automated active analysis of the immediate environment in and around the ship, its landers and each of her crew for the purposes of identifying probable infection vectors into an alien ecosystem and rendering them neutral at the source and/or combat/out compete them via the transmission vectors themselves. These advances, while not able to bring the chance of infecting visited ecosystems with our pathogens down to zero, brings it low enough that first contact teams can "shake hands" with indigenous peoples with a strong measure of confidence that no one will die from it later.
What cha think folks?
Umm, no, I didn't make myself clear. It isn't a question of the sophistication of the nano. It's a question of your body needing something that, should it get out, might complicate your mission. That would leave you with a choice between eliminating something that your body needs in order to eliminate risk, or finding some way to mitigate the risk so that you can pursue your mission in reasonable health. As others have pointed out, something as simple as not dumping your ship's waste (and not relieving yourself while out there) already eliminates a large fraction of the potential harmful agents. You could eliminate a large fraction of the rest by just wearing a filter mask and latex gloves.
Maybe - which is where things get scary.
You're venturing into the unknown, after all. Just when you think you know something solid, some little thing crops up and surprises you. Prions: who'd have thunk a nonliving bit of protein could be an agent of infection? I expect our TL 15 far future friends to have a much more solid grasp on organics than we have, but that does not eliminate the possibility for them to be surprised when venturing into new worlds.
Which is a complicated way of saying: if you want it to work in your universe, then it will work perfectly in your universe, but hold out an option for the totally unexpected if you think it will make for an exciting story. That's the basis behind Jurassic Park and any number of other thrilling stories: even when we think we know it all, something can surprise us. For example:
Your perfectly programmed and leashed nannites run into a previously undiscovered microscopic silicon-based life form - something following the same evolutionary track pursued by the organisms of distant Cymbelline (Signal GK) - and the interaction results in an explosion of Frankenstein nannites (or maybe Nomads would be a better name, if you're up on your classic Star Trek) which you can no longer control or predict.
There's nothing quite as fun as confronting a player with something entirely unexpected and unknown.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
This is one big problem with trying to "protect" your xeno's from your own self.
My point in spades - going both directions!
Bwahahahahahah!!!!! :devil:
Of course, of course, the unknown will always present the best thought out tech solutions with befuddlement, unsurmountables, and sundry other problems. Having a well defined tool in a game such as ours is really just a well defined set of plot points for any Ref worth his salt. As such I am not driving for a system that is somehow flawless, only one that is good enough to address annoying problems in a believable manner and allow us to get on with the role play with the confidence that we are doing it the best we can.
Personally the roleplayability of the physical barriers dictated by existing and easily understood containment protocols wears thin quickly. My ref offered me the opportunity to think up a TL 16 Medi system to help us with our exploratory mission and this was my first attempt. My reading puts practical nanotechnology at TL 9 and useful biotech at TL 12, if we extend the synthisys of the two out to TL 14, a reliable system of the sort I've described should be readily available and much more useful than problematic.
Perhaps I am overreaching though. The retro-scifi nature of Traveller is very conservative where potential "magi-tech" like nannites are concerned.
While researching this problem I stumbled across the below article. While about as far from canon as one can get and still call the game Traveller I felt most of the authors point and solutions were sound.
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/traveller21c.html
Cheers.
Personally the roleplayability of the physical barriers dictated by existing and easily understood containment protocols wears thin quickly. My ref offered me the opportunity to think up a TL 16 Medi system to help us with our exploratory mission and this was my first attempt. My reading puts practical nanotechnology at TL 9 and useful biotech at TL 12, if we extend the synthisys of the two out to TL 14, a reliable system of the sort I've described should be readily available and much more useful than problematic.
Perhaps I am overreaching though. The retro-scifi nature of Traveller is very conservative where potential "magi-tech" like nannites are concerned.
While researching this problem I stumbled across the below article. While about as far from canon as one can get and still call the game Traveller I felt most of the authors point and solutions were sound.
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/tech/traveller21c.html
Cheers.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Basically, what you are looking for is absolute, 100$ accurate knowledge of every possible pathogen that your party could expose the contact planet too, and for every possible pathogen that your party could be exposed too. Since you will not know what you are dealing with on a planet until you land and start analyzing things, the first is not possible prior to landing. Neither is the second.
Also, as mentioned, we does need certain bacteria operating in our digestive system to survive. What if as part of the contact alien's culture, you are required to share a drink from the same container with them? Or as a sign of trust, you and one of the aliens have to eat from the same plate?
Simply put, I view what your referee is asking for is impossible, and your party is going to have to take its chances.
Take a look at Murry Leinster's Med Ship series or Andre Norton's Plague Ship.
Also, as mentioned, we does need certain bacteria operating in our digestive system to survive. What if as part of the contact alien's culture, you are required to share a drink from the same container with them? Or as a sign of trust, you and one of the aliens have to eat from the same plate?
Simply put, I view what your referee is asking for is impossible, and your party is going to have to take its chances.
Take a look at Murry Leinster's Med Ship series or Andre Norton's Plague Ship.