qreBs and armor

[Ackehece]

Did we ever come up with a rule for how qreBs affected the felt weight of armor? or is it something that was left intentionally vague? (aka did I miss this in the T5 book?)
the example in the T5 book is strictly linear... B-4 reduced felt weight by 4 kilos.
It is described as reducing or increasing the apparent weight or unwieldiness of the object... that would be more subjective would it not?

Don?:CoW:

 

[Licheking]

you can only carry your Strength in Kilo's (weight units) therefore when Burden is a negative number it comes off the weight making it easier to carry, and if it adds then it becomes harder to carry.

Obviously the average person (Strength 7) can carry more than 7 kilo's around without it affecting his ability to move, so i prefer to think of the kilo's in Traveller as a sort of Weight Unit which is both bulk and mass. And then Burden as an easing or increasing of this Weight Unit.

 

[robject]

The book is indeed strictly linear and apparent. This is reasonable enough, since there are limits to what people can carry, no matter how well the mass is distributed. For such a simple mechanic it makes that point crystal clear.

You could get complicated with it if you had something specific in mind that you wanted to model.

And, the book talks about powered armor vs unpowered (p263).

 

[Ulsyus]

you can only carry your Strength in Kilo's (weight units) therefore when Burden is a negative number it comes off the weight making it easier to carry, and if it adds then it becomes harder to carry.

Obviously the average person (Strength 7) can carry more than 7 kilo's around without it affecting his ability to move, so i prefer to think of the kilo's in Traveller as a sort of Weight Unit which is both bulk and mass. And then Burden as an easing or increasing of this Weight Unit.

Some of this is a little more difficult than it first appears. Try on a ballistic vest with a knife-weave through it, say seven or eight kilos, then add an equipment belt with handgun, extra magazines, metal telescoping baton, spray and cuffs and tiny torch and a radio, say another 10kg. Then run a 400 meter obstacle course with the equivalents of suburban 6ft fences, railway platforms to jump up onto to, windows to climb through, 20ft cyclone wire fence, plus a few other delights. The final result, shaken and not stirred, is a puffing sweating person who needs a bit of time to catch their breath. This is far worse than having to just wear it around for nine hours in the course of a regular day at work.

Do things differently with webbing, 180c of 5.56 ammunition, rifle, water, rations, ballistic kit, helmet, etc etc, and doing patrolling before having to engage in fire & movement, and you end up with similarly tuckered-out person.

My overly verbose point is that it's not so much the weight that is carried, but the the combination of weight and activity level that is critical. An unfit person may not be able to do much with that sort of gear on at the best of times, but even the very fit will be tested depending on the level and duration of intense physical work.

I reckon END is at least as important as STR in this consideration.

 

[Ackehece]

The book is indeed strictly linear and apparent. This is reasonable enough, since there are limits to what people can carry, no matter how well the mass is distributed. For such a simple mechanic it makes that point crystal clear.

You could get complicated with it if you had something specific in mind that you wanted to model.

And, the book talks about powered armor vs unpowered (p263).

Not so sure that is is obvious. Just that the example worked that way. I am not sure that it wouldn't have been wiser to state straight up that B+ adds 1 apparent kilo per up and B- would subtract 1 apparent kilo down. Yes there are limits to what a person can carry but the burden rating seems... I don't know- maybe not as well stated as it could be?

 

[Ackehece]

Some of this is a little more difficult than it first appears. Try on a ballistic vest with a knife-weave through it, say seven or eight kilos, then add an equipment belt with handgun, extra magazines, metal telescoping baton, spray and cuffs and tiny torch and a radio, say another 10kg. Then run a 400 meter obstacle course with the equivalents of suburban 6ft fences, railway platforms to jump up onto to, windows to climb through, 20ft cyclone wire fence, plus a few other delights. The final result, shaken and not stirred, is a puffing sweating person who needs a bit of time to catch their breath. This is far worse than having to just wear it around for nine hours in the course of a regular day at work.

Do things differently with webbing, 180c of 5.56 ammunition, rifle, water, rations, ballistic kit, helmet, etc etc, and doing patrolling before having to engage in fire & movement, and you end up with similarly tuckered-out person.

My overly verbose point is that it's not so much the weight that is carried, but the the combination of weight and activity level that is critical. An unfit person may not be able to do much with that sort of gear on at the best of times, but even the very fit will be tested depending on the level and duration of intense physical work.

I reckon END is at least as important as STR in this consideration.

very true. It is something to think about as well. But B is supposed to be a "fixed" value according to the QREBS roll.

I think that this leads into the question of E as well. What maybe E +5 for once sophant class might be -5 for another. Subjective from an outside view but objective within a sophant group.

 

[Ackehece]

I see this has been covered a few times before...
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32886

so I guess that the results of this discussion will be the same...
man-portable will be a felt change of around -5 to +5 kilo.
larger objects that are not man portable.. do what you want with it seems to be the consensus .. I think a 5 to 10% difference per B point would not be amiss
that means a B-5 on a 10 tonne object might actually have a 50% reduction in mass to 5 tonne...
"built out of aluminium and carbon fibre than the original steel structure"
Is that how much people are playing it out?


*edit* thinking more on this subject Laser Turrets etc get qreBs bonus as well when being built - it doesn't change the effective weight of the turret (1 ton socket) so it must have some other effect for bigger than man portable items.
Burden on the ship? how does that work? it must have some effect or why put that modifier on the chart?
modified B -2 or ultimate B-4 makes no sense on a Turret using a standard socket if it changes effective weight - so what are we measuring.
I still think that a reduction in mass in certain things might still be appropriate (see weight loss construction of car bodies over the years - steel -> steel and aluminium -> aluminium -> carbon fibre -> future tech) but that assuredly is not the case in displacement weight of turrets and other ship accessories that gain the B+/- attribute

 

[Ackehece]

qreBs - Burden/Bulk not strictly a kg drop.

more :CoW: related to B of qreBs:
When used for armor and weapons it does appear to be related to Kg (even if it is not directly stated (and I argue that it should be)), but larger bulkier non man-portable items seem to follow the rule posted on pg 521.
According to the charts on console creation and computer design the B reduces footprint of the item by 1 deck square per -B (and vice versa)with a minimum of 1 deck square. This has serious and very good(or bad ) consequences for ship and vehicle design.

I still don't think this resolves the Turrets getting -B but it does indicate something other than mass reduction is taking place.