Public Transit Bus / Passengers

[Frewfrux]

I'm trying to design a public transit bus. I see that the rule for passengers is in the Errata, but I don't see a solution. There's a suggestion that space for passengers could be purpose-built allowing 5 per ton. Is that the general accepted solution?

I'm basing my design on the "Classic" transit bus (MCI Classic TC40-102A) which has, roughly, the following dimensions:

Length: 12.19 meters
Width: 2.59 meters
Height: 4.115 meters

Tonnage: 9.27994225

At 4 passengers per ton that's 37, and at 5 per ton that's 46. (One of those has to be the driver, right?)

In RL the passenger capacity varied from 39 to 52 (depending, I'm guessing, on if wheelchair lifts were installed or not).

So, the 5 per ton number seems reasonable to me, though a 6 per ton number (resulting in max passengers of 55) doesn't seem too far off the mark either.

Has there been any ruling on this?

 

[Frewfrux]

Oh wait, I was using 14 cubic meters per ton. I should use 13.5. Revised numbers are:

Tons: 9.624
4-pass-per-ton: 38
5-pass-per-ton: 48
6-pass-per-ton: 57

So yeah, 5 passengers per ton is only off by 4 from what reality is on these buses (off by 5 if the driver is one of the 'passengers')

 

[Reban]

I'd go with the 5 passengers per ton figure as a good guide.

And since its supposed to be a guide to building vehicles for role playing I'd say there's nothing stopping you saying the manufacturers sacrificed some comfort to fit four extra passengers in to get to the 52 passenger figure.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

5 passengers per Dt is very generous.

A normal city bus:

If we assume the passenger space is about 10 m × 2.5 m × 2.5 m = 62.5 m³ ≈ 4.6 Dt and a capacity of about 50 seated passengers, it has over 10 seated passengers (plus prams, wheelchairs, and standing passengers) per Dt passenger space.

 

[Frewfrux]

This is the one I'm modeling after:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_(transit_bus)

Pretty much all the stats are there except height, which I got from another site. (4.115 meter)

 

[Frewfrux]

Looks like there is, actually, an optional add-on of "passenger module." You sacrifice 3 load (3 tons of cargo space, right?) for +20 passengers. That's 6.7 passengers per ton. It also costs 100,000Cr

Still, that's pretty much what I'm looking for, apart from the cost. That said, I don't think I have 7.5 load to give to this.

 

[Frewfrux]

Okay, let me see if I have the bus design down right. Going off the Vehicle Fill Form on page 262....

Vehicle: Ground
Type: Vehicle (seems a little redundant ;p ) giving me tons = 5, load = 3, and a base cost of 60KCr
Mission: Passenger, which gives "insulated" (protection = 12, cost +10KCr)
Motive: Wheeled, TL 6, speed 5
Bulk: Heavy, TL +1, tons x2, speed -1, Load +2, Armour x2, Insulated x2...what does that mean???, Cr x3
Stage: Fossil, TL -2, Tons +2, armour -10
Environ: Insulated...but...I already took this as part of the Mission....so I don't think I take it again, right?

Before I work out options, let me look at what I have so far...

TL 5, tons = 12, load = 5, armour 14, speed 4, 210,000Cr

Hmmm...that's a lot of credits. I definitely need more speed. I would say speed 6 is minimum if the vehicle is to do any highway driving, so I'll need to bump it up by 2...

So, do I take the "fast" option twice, or the fast option and then the high powered option?

How would the passenger module work if I added that?

 

[Frewfrux]

So, let's say I took the "fast" option twice (it's cheaper and I'm already over budget), that would be +2 TL, +2 Tons, +2 Speed, and -4 Load for +60,000Cr. This would give the vehicle the following stats:

Model.......LongName
FrewBus....Heavy-Wheeled-Vehicle-Ground-Human-7

Vx: 14-6-1-Fossil-Insulated-12hr-50000-Powered Controls

Additional Notes:
Range: Regional, armour 14, 270,000Cr, 69 passengers*, 1 crew.
*Most models sacrifice 10 seats for enough standing room for +20 passengers

So, that looks okay, I guess. It's larger than I wanted by 4-5 tons, and more expensive than I wanted by around 200,000Cr.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Length: 12.19 meters
Width: 2.59 meters
Height: 4.115 meters

I severely doubt that the bus is 4 m (13.5') high. 3 m is reasonable.

12 × 2.6 × 3 = 93.6 m³ ≈ 7 Dt.


Load is payload capacity of the vehicle.

Fast removes load just as fast as Heavy adds is, it's a zero sum game that only adds cost and size of the vehicle.

How about something like Transport, Passenger, Wheeled, Fossil, Medium?

Transport, 5 Dt, Load 4, kCr 60
Passenger, +kCr 10
Wheeled, Speed 5
Fossil, +2 Dt
Medium, no change
Total: 7 Dt, Speed 5, Load 4 Dt, kCr 70 which seems about right.

A large, heavy vehicle with a ~250 hp engine is not going to set any speed records. It might do 100 km/h max, but is intended for city use and 50-70 km/h cruise. Speed 5 is reasonable.

With a Load of 4 Dt and 10+ passengers per Dt we can have 40-50 passengers squeezed in like the original vehicle. (4 or 5 passengers per Dt is much more spacious than currently common in ground vehicles, perhaps like business class with toilets and kitchens).

As noted TL is completely unreasonable.


Note that a Dt is fairly large, a van might be 1.5-2 Dt. A car is 0.5-1 Dt. See p256.

 

[Frewfrux]

I severely doubt that the bus is 4 m (13.5') high. 3 m is reasonable.

You may be right. I was just quoting another source. Looking at the pic of the bus I think it's at least equal in height as it is in width, so you're 3 meters would be closer to reality.

Fast removes load just as fast as Heavy adds is, it's a zero sum game that only adds cost and size of the vehicle.

True, but aren't "medium" and "heavy" just subjective values that reference the size of the vehicle? I don't think it's unreasonable to say a bus is significantly more "bulky" than a sedan. Or is this value something that is more well defined than I'm thinking?

Also, Fast and Heavy both come from different steps in the process, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Even if you could compare them, it's only a zero sum game if all you're looking at is load, but that's not all I'm looking at, so it makes sense for me to have it be heavy (I think) and if that's true, I would need it to be a fast heavy.

A large, heavy vehicle with a ~250 hp engine is not going to set any speed records. It might do 100 km/h max, but is intended for city use and 50-70 km/h cruise. Speed 5 is reasonable.

But isn't the max, sustainable speed of a speed 5 vehicle 50 km/h? That's not a reasonable max cruising speed for a bus today (many non-highway speed limits are in the 70 km/h range - which would need speed 6), though maybe it was when the bus first came out?

As noted TL is completely unreasonable.

I think you're thinking of the other post about the TL-2 car. TL7 for this vehicle is right on the money as it was in production in 1982, and TL 7 is listed as equal to around 1975.

Note that a Dt is fairly large

So is a bus I don't think the 12-14 DT I came up with in the process is reasonable, but 7 DT seems to match RL.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

True, but aren't "medium" and "heavy" just subjective values that reference the size of the vehicle? I don't think it's unreasonable to say a bus is significantly more "bulky" than a sedan.

Quite, but Heavy means Heavy version of the base vehicle, not compared to a car. The base type Transport is already bus-sized, so you don't need Heavy. If you wanted an extra large bus, such as a Coach or long articulated bus, that would be a Heavy Passenger Transport.

Technically High Powered would probably better than Fast, since it costs less Load.

The basic city bus is just a Medium Passenger Transport, I believe.

Also, Fast and Heavy both come from different steps in the process, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Even if you could compare them, it's only a zero sum game if all you're looking at is load, but that's not all I'm looking at, so it makes sense for me to have it be heavy (I think) and if that's true, I would need it to be a fast heavy.

But Fast & Heavy gives unreasonable results...

I would think like this: Is it a Heavy bus? No, it's a normal bus. Is it a Fast bus? No, it's a normal bus.

A Fast Heavy bus would be something like a large intercity coach, I believe.

But isn't the max, sustainable speed of a speed 5 vehicle 50 km/h?

I think it's a speedband, not an absolute speed, meaning the "normal" speed is closer to 50 km/h than 100 km/h? This is not a detailed design system.

Note that by p250 we can drive a vehicle at Speed+1, but it's not quite as trivial.

I think you're thinking of the other post about the TL-2 car. TL7 for this vehicle is right on the money as it was in production in 1982, and TL 7 is listed as equal to around 1975.

Yes, I thought about your TL-2 car and also the Medium Fossil Wheeled Transport (TL-3) I suggested.

 

[Frewfrux]

Quite, but Heavy means Heavy version of the base vehicle, not compared to a car. The base type Transport is already bus-sized, so you don't need Heavy. If you wanted an extra large bus, such as a Coach or long articulated bus, that would be a Heavy Passenger Transport.

OOOHHHHHHHHH...that makes more sense. So, perhaps, one of those smaller "1/2 sized" buses that they use for lighter routes might be a "light" version of a transport vehicle? That would wreak havoc on the rule about passengers and light vehicles, though. Hmmmm.

Technically High Powered would probably better than Fast, since it costs less Load.

Right, but it costs far more in terms of credits.

A Fast Heavy bus would be something like a large intercity coach, I believe.

I could see that. Like a Greyhound.

I think it's a speedband, not an absolute speed, meaning the "normal" speed is closer to 50 km/h than 100 km/h?

I see.

This is not a detailed design system.

Yeah, I'm starting to get that, and it's throwing me off a bit.

Note that by p250 we can drive a vehicle at Speed+1, but it's not quite as trivial.

Oh, I missed that. Thanks.

So, in the end, I think your evaluation would be pretty much on the money. This is how I'd set it up, though...

Type: Transport, 5 Dt, Load 3, kCr 60
Mission: Passenger, armour 5, insulated 12, +kCr 10
Motive: Wheeled, Speed 5
Bulk: Medium, no change
Stage: Fossil, +2 Dt, -10 armour
Environ: Encolsed, 4 armour, 4 Flashproof, 4 Soundproof, 12 Insulated

Total: 7 Dt, Speed 5, Load 3* Dt, kCr 70

*MODIFICATIONS:

All "load" space (and then some) taken up with cramped passenger seating meant for short-term trips only (typically < 1.5 hours). Seating for 50 available, with "standing room" for and additional 20. Some models reduce those numbers to 40/15 to add in wheelchair lifts and folding seats.

Model.......LongName
FrewBus....Wheeled-Passenger-Transport-Ground-7

Vx: 7-5-3*-Fossil-Enclosed-12hr-50000

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, perhaps, one of those smaller "1/2 sized" buses that they use for lighter routes might be a "light" version of a transport vehicle? That would wreak havoc on the rule about passengers and light vehicles, though. Hmmmm.

That seems reasonable. Passengers is not a problem, it would have a drivers cabin with driver+passenger and then it could use Load for further passengers.

Right, but it costs far more in terms of credits.

Quite, but Load is difficult to get, so we might get away with a Medium vehicle, instead of a Heavy vehicle, obviating the need for Fast + HiPower, which saves money.

Type: Transport, 5 Dt, Load 3, kCr 60
...
Total: 7 Dt, Speed 5, Load 3* Dt, kCr 70

Looks good, but Transport has Load 4, so the resulting vehicle has Load 4.

 

[Frewfrux]

That seems reasonable. Passengers is not a problem, it would have a drivers cabin with driver+passenger and then it could use Load for further passengers.

I guess. I just assumed that when it was talking about passengers being based on total Tons, and the light and very light being exceptions, that would mean that "load" was in reference to cargo-only space. But I guess for passenger transports especially, "cargo" IS passengers.

Looks good, but Transport has Load 4, so the resulting vehicle has Load 4.

Oh right. I was mixing up "Transport" and "Vehicle." I got the base price wrong as well, that should be 40KCr, not 60KCr, leaving the final price as 50KCr