Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Psionics obeys the Laws of Physics? Interesting concept.
Psionics and the laws of physics
- Thread starter dalthor
- Start date
Is there any gadget to overcome the conservation of the momentum need?
I see easier to overcome the temperature changes for gaining/losing potential energy than this other limit, that precludes any teleport boarding of enemy ships (unless crippled, so that vector can be matched).
At least for energy and momentum conservation, and at least in earlier versions (see TTB page 120. IIRC this is also in the CT LBB and in MT
H, but I don't have them Handy right now).
Not that I saw when I looked thru the material.
You're right. Conservation of Energy is a much easier problem to work around than the Conservation of Momentum problem.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I always assumed that Psionics operated in complete defiance of the Laws of Physics, as would you kindly explain to me the relationship of telepathy to the Laws of Physics?
The more general explanation is that Psionics are another way to interact with the physical world on a molecular or quantum level.
Telepathy or the transmission of information from one person to another without using any of our known sensory channels or physical interaction could be explained as a form of Quantum Teleportation where the exact state of an atom or photon in my brain is transmitted to yours. So if my thought is a pattern of neurons firing I could (with my psionic powers) teleport the same pattern or thought into your brain. While the physics is real the psionic powers needed to implement it in two brains is not known.
Interestingly because of the physics involved telepathy is limited to light speed.
Disclaimer: Not a Quantum Physicist and Not psionic.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Dave Nilsen explained that there were plans for TNE to develop the link between jump space dimensions and psionics.
IMTU psionics are explained as molecular scale biomachinery developed at TL22+.
The Ancients engineered this machinery into the very DNA of their servitor races and sentient machines. It eventually grows dormant with time.
IMTU psionics are explained as molecular scale biomachinery developed at TL22+.
The Ancients engineered this machinery into the very DNA of their servitor races and sentient machines. It eventually grows dormant with time.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
So, all efforts at interstellar communication via telepathy are totally wasted. Also, that means that Zhodani use of telepathy for communication between ships is limited to light speed as well, with the accompanying time lag.
Also, if it works that way, what happens if there is a massive speed differential between one mind and another?
andycowley
SOC-10
CosmicGamer,
You are absolutely on the mark with your question about horizontal movement ... two cases;
First; An object at rest is teleported to a different point at the same altitude relative to a planets center of mass .... Unless the new location is anything other than the same latitude (relative to the planets equator) there will be an energy change due to moving to a location with a higher or lower surface velocity (assuming the planet is spinning) ... For example if I stand on the equator of the earth and teleport to the north or south pole I must lose an enormous amount of energy as I go from 1670km/hr to 0km/hr ... so I get toasted!
Second; If an object teleports to a new location AND changes it relative velocity (for example from rest to 1000km/hr) then everything above remains true BUT you must also factor in the energy gain or loss from the Delta V change .... which makes it even worse ...
I don't have the math to show this in examples as some have done for altitude but I expect that for either case the energy gain/loss could be catastrophic for significant changes in latitude at the same altitude...
As an aside, this exact issue is highlighted in Larry Niven's 'known space' stories when detailing with 'stepping disks' which allow teleportation over significant (world) distances ....
You are absolutely on the mark with your question about horizontal movement ... two cases;
First; An object at rest is teleported to a different point at the same altitude relative to a planets center of mass .... Unless the new location is anything other than the same latitude (relative to the planets equator) there will be an energy change due to moving to a location with a higher or lower surface velocity (assuming the planet is spinning) ... For example if I stand on the equator of the earth and teleport to the north or south pole I must lose an enormous amount of energy as I go from 1670km/hr to 0km/hr ... so I get toasted!
Second; If an object teleports to a new location AND changes it relative velocity (for example from rest to 1000km/hr) then everything above remains true BUT you must also factor in the energy gain or loss from the Delta V change .... which makes it even worse ...
I don't have the math to show this in examples as some have done for altitude but I expect that for either case the energy gain/loss could be catastrophic for significant changes in latitude at the same altitude...
As an aside, this exact issue is highlighted in Larry Niven's 'known space' stories when detailing with 'stepping disks' which allow teleportation over significant (world) distances ....
Regarding Niven and stepping discs, I'm assuming some form of energy damper, converter, or the like. Been too long since I read Ringworld or any other known space books. The Kzinti have been quiet, so no action has been required.
Regarding energy in general, T5 accounts for vertical only; there is no provision I've seen for lateral movement, nor does the system account for gravity in general.
There are specific references to heat pumps to deal with the temperature change; there is also a Psionic ability that allows one to shift heat or cold to an object or the environment.
I'm considering some tweaks to the system to make it integrate better - don't really want that fantasy feel. I haven't figured out how to use the fatigue factor, which isn't really described very well. The deal about 2d6 < End applies in a couple of spots, but no penalties or mods or given. It just states the member moves to the next fatigue level of their personal day.
See posts 291 and 292 in the errata thread. Hope that response will clarify some stuff, but in the meantime I am winging it for now.
Still plugging along, and the responses to date are appreciated.
Regarding energy in general, T5 accounts for vertical only; there is no provision I've seen for lateral movement, nor does the system account for gravity in general.
There are specific references to heat pumps to deal with the temperature change; there is also a Psionic ability that allows one to shift heat or cold to an object or the environment.
I'm considering some tweaks to the system to make it integrate better - don't really want that fantasy feel. I haven't figured out how to use the fatigue factor, which isn't really described very well. The deal about 2d6 < End applies in a couple of spots, but no penalties or mods or given. It just states the member moves to the next fatigue level of their personal day.
See posts 291 and 292 in the errata thread. Hope that response will clarify some stuff, but in the meantime I am winging it for now.
Still plugging along, and the responses to date are appreciated.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Which is why I said initially that I think that Psionics operates outside of the Laws (as we presently know them) of Physics.
Note: I am not a fan of Psionics for the most part in a science fiction game.
I don't think it is an issue of coming up with reasons why they can't work. It is simply an issue of putting limits on how they do work (just like any other ability or piece of equipment in the game). Also, the limitations that are being explored are in line with prior canon on the subject in the various rulesets.
Obviously, you can choose to implement psionics in your game in any way that you feel they should operate, but I think some of the limiting factors above keep psionics from becoming too powerful or "magical" (just my opinion - YMMV). I do not mind psionics in a SF game either, but I find them more believable when they are not too "flashy". Teleportation & Telekinesis can become that if there are not some reasonable/believable limitations on what can or cannot be done (IMHO).
I generally take the approach that psionics partake of some physics that we do understand, and some that we don't. The temperature changes that we mentioned are in prior canon, and I think that works fine (particularly as a limiting factor that needs to be considered and worked around). For communication/knowledge abilities (telepathy/precognition/ESP, etc), I rather like David Nilsen's idea that it operates at some higher dimensionality (like, but not the same as, jumpspace) and can operate instantaneously (i.e. not constrained by lightspeed). TNE was going to explore this relationship, but GDW folded before anything was thoroughly worked out or published.
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If psionics have to conform to the rules of physics then shouldn't we then go into all the physics regarding Jump travel and heat transfer for ships in space and all the other very complicated science things that space travel, combat requires. We already hand wave so much about starships and jump drives, why make psionics more complex then space travel?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
You do have an excellent point there, considering the probable heat output of your typical Traveller ship power plant. Then there is the "hand wave" missile propellant systems, and the incredibly accurate in range and predictive ability of the sensors systems, which do not seem to take light-speed time lag into account.
I like the basics of Psi in T5, but I'm likely to be doing a much simpler implementation.
I was thinking along the lines of Psi pulling/pushing the energy from something akin to jumpspace, but with a higher energy state. I'm not sure how I'll handle the lightspeed disparities.
A lot of the abilities will remain as written, but I'm going to expand on the (limited!) amount of discussion of fatigue.
I may actually make Psi a career choice, which would also reduce its utility. Yah, you could become an awesome Psionic, but you wouldn't know doodly-squat for other useful skills.
Errata responses will probably be a long time coming. I don't think Psi will be high on the priority list, since most folks probably don't implement it at all.
Of course, I always wonder how those referees handle the Zhodani in their campaign. Do they simply exist, but are essentially neutered?
I'll have to read up on the Zhodani...maybe that will give me some ideas on where to go from here.
I was thinking along the lines of Psi pulling/pushing the energy from something akin to jumpspace, but with a higher energy state. I'm not sure how I'll handle the lightspeed disparities.
A lot of the abilities will remain as written, but I'm going to expand on the (limited!) amount of discussion of fatigue.
I may actually make Psi a career choice, which would also reduce its utility. Yah, you could become an awesome Psionic, but you wouldn't know doodly-squat for other useful skills.
Errata responses will probably be a long time coming. I don't think Psi will be high on the priority list, since most folks probably don't implement it at all.
Of course, I always wonder how those referees handle the Zhodani in their campaign. Do they simply exist, but are essentially neutered?
I'll have to read up on the Zhodani...maybe that will give me some ideas on where to go from here.
Teleportation is magic. So if the plane did stop instantly, that's magic, too. Someone suggested that teleporting means pushing. If true, the plane would explode as it gets raised 1000m instantly. After that?... gravity.
The End Check.
Hey dude,
I don't have the boom with me, but I seem to recall that if you fail the 2D < End check you can no longer use the Ability till you have rested. I will try and check it when I get home tomorrow, but I am pretty sure it's in there.
Hey dude,
I don't have the boom with me, but I seem to recall that if you fail the 2D < End check you can no longer use the Ability till you have rested. I will try and check it when I get home tomorrow, but I am pretty sure it's in there.
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